For Sins 1.18 and Entrenchment 1.04
This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.
* Topics shoud be considered independent of eachother, vote for each topic as if the Devs were to choose only 1. Yay for fixes that you think would work, nay for fixes that you think won't*
** Now there's an easier way to cast your vote, download the easy entry form, fill it out and then copy and paste your results!**
>> Download The Easy Entry Form <<
REFERENCESSeveral members of the community have taken it upon themselves to run tests to prove imbalances and recommend possible fixes. I would Encourage everyone commenting here to read these and become more informed.Raging Amish's Lums vs Enforcers JJs HC Tests JJs Illum Tests
Deceivers Subjugator thread Deceivers Cap Carrier thread
RAGING AMISH's Balance MOD
Game BugsThese need to be addressed before anything else. The following is a compiled list of all known game bugs. Thanks to Pawelo for helping me compile and test these. If you can think of any others that aren't on here leave a comment to let me know.-Embargo Level 2 and 3 do not stop cargo ships.-Phasic Trap Research level 2 does not do anything.-Magnetize does not interrupt channeled abilities-Disruptive Strikes does not work on pulse beams-Allegiance through wormholes is flawed.-Wrong Sound effects on: Anima Tempest, repair cloud, nanite armor, EMP blast-Infocard errors: Dunov shield restore does not increase mitigation, labs do not speed up build time
-Akkan Colonize ability does not always spawn extractors at lvl2 and lvl3.
-Subverters Disrupt Shields can not target structures with shields-Some musics and Orange Skybox are not used.
SOLANUS ADJUDICATORS
The adjudicator, while it can target multiple structures, just doesnt have the punch its TEC cousin the Ogrovs has and has difficulty handling tight clusters of structures supported by repair bays. Also, without a well functioning healing unit, the poor adjudicator simply cant live long enough in the throws of battle to make a huge difference. We've discussed the changes, now its time to get official votes on them.
Buff the Adjudicator- Change armor type?:
Yay- JuleTron Kitkun N3rull eoncommander
Nay- Dargoon999 Warlord Mike
Reduce supply cost?:
Yay- JuleTron Kitkun Dargoon999 Warlord Mike Darvin3 SivCorp eoncommander
Nay-
Reduce number of firing banks to increase damage per target?:
Yay- Warlord Mike eoncommander
Nay- Kitkun N3rull Dargoon999
Increase damage?:
Nay- Kitkun Dargoon999
Increase shields?:
Yay- JuleTron Kitkun eoncommander
No Fix Needed- Ryat Extremor
MINES
These little critters were introduced in Entrenchment and have been seldom used. They are purely defensive, extremely expensive, and a huge gamble to put your money in. There's been much discussion on possible fixes, but now its time for an official vote, so here you go.
Buff Mines Increase damage? Yay- Juletron Whiskey144 SivCorp Extremor Nay- EadTaes Raging Amish Ovi_187 Kitkun eoncommander Increase damage radius? Yay- Top Vasari Whiskey144 EadTaes Warlord Mike Ovi_187 SivCorp Extremor eoncommander Nay- Juletron N3rull Raging Amish Kitkun Increase activation radius? Yay- Warlord Mike eoncommander Nay- EadTaes JuleTron N3rull Raging Amish Ovi_187 Kitkun Extremor Increase mines per deployment? Yay- eoncommander Nay- EadTaes N3rull Raging Amish Warlord Mike Ovi_187 Kitkun Extremor Increase deployment spread? Yay- Warlord Mike Extremor eoncommander Nay- Juletron EadTaes N3rull Raging Amish Ovi_187 Kitkun Decrease cost? Yay- Juletron Mindseye(25%) EadTaes(25%) Dargoon999 Whiskey144 N3rull(20%) Warlord Mike Ovi_187 Kitkun Extremor Nay- Raging Amish eoncommander Reduce build time for Proximity Mines(TEC)? Yay- Juletron Whiskey144 EadTaes Raging Amish Warlord Mike Ovi_187 Kitkun Extremor Nay- Increase duration of Gravity Mines(Vasari)? Yay- Juletron N3rull Mindseye Ovi_187 Kitkun Extremor Nay- EadTaes Raging Amish Fix homming mines AI to return to original deployment location(Advent)? Yay- JuleTron EadTaes N3rull Mindseye Warlord Mike Ovi_187 SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Raging Amish
Make Gravity Mines an upgrade to existing mines?
Yay- N3rull Juletron Dargoon999 Ue-Carbon Deceiver_0 Mindseye Kitkun Extremor
Nay- EadTaes Raging Amish
No fix needed-
SIEGE FRIGATESCosting more than most Heavy Cruisers, one would expect siege frigates to be able to handle a simple task like bombing a planet to oblivion, but with their super thin and weak hulls they certainly aren't worth the cost, and with Entrenchments bombardment protection on starbases, siege frigates find themselves in the obsolete unit pile. Personally I think they should be tough as nails since all they do is bomb planets and cost loads of resources and precious supply. With a decent buff these units could be the terror they once were and possibly bring back some of the planetary defense tech that fell from use after their nerf. (planetary shielding anyone?) Buff Siege Frigates Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yay- Deceiver_0(Hp) Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Ryat EadTaes Dargoon999(10%) N3rull(+nerf) Kitkun eoncommander Nay- Soasertsus Cykur Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Howdidudothat Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Extremor Change armor type (currently light)?: Yay- Deceiver_0(v. heavy) Soasertsus(v. heavy) Volt_Cruelerz(heavy/v.heavy) EadTaes (heavy) Dargoon999(heavy) N3rull(heavy) SivCorp Extremor(heavy) eoncommander Nay- Darvin3 Cykur Ryat Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Howdidudothat Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Decrease Resource cost?: Yay- Soasertsus Darvin3 EadTaes Howdidudothat Sobric Extremor Nay- Volt_Cruelerz Cykur Ryat Dargoon999 Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun Decrease Supply Cost?: Yay- Soasertsus(6) Darvin3 Cykur Ryat(10) EadTaes(10) Dargoon999(10) Mindseye Howdidudothat Raging Amish(12) Ascension(12) Ovi_187 mbaron888(8) Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander Nay- Volt_Cruelerz Extremor Increase Bombardment damage?: Yay- Volt_Cruelerz Dargoon999(20%) Warlord Mike Extremor Nay- Soasertsus Darvin3 Cykur Ryat EadTaes Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Howdidudothat Ovi_187 Sobric SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander
Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 Cykur Ryat Dargoon999 N3rull Mindseye Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Nay- EadTaes Ascension Howdidudothat Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: Yay- Darvin3 Sobric Warlord Mike Nay- Soasertsus Volt_Cruelerz Cykur Ryat EadTaes Dargoon999 Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Howdidudothat Ovi_187 Kitkun Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Yay- Soasertsus Darvin3(40) Cykur EadTaes(15) Dargoon999(30) Ovi_187 Kitkun Nay- Volt_Cruelerz Ryat Mindseye Raging Amish Ascension Howdidudothat Sobric Warlord Mike Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Volt_Cruelerz Darvin3 EadTaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor Nay- Ryat Ascension Howdidudothat Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Yay- Darvin3 EadTaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor Nay- Soasertsus Volt_Cruelerz Ryat Ascension Howdidudothat Sobric No Fix Needed-
SEREVUN OVERSEERThe overseer is a powerful, but seldom used ship due to it's current lack of usability. I'd recommend anyone planning on voting on this topic read a few of the replies on page 5, where Ascension and I debated some changes. I've also thrown in a few ideas to make overseers 'Jump Degradation' ability a little more potent for the 100AM and channeling it costs. Buff Serevun Overseers- Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yay- Deceiver_0 JuleTron Volt_Cruelerz Ascension Soasertsus milo896 Howdidudothat lifekatana N3rull Mindseye Cykur EadTaes Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Pbhead Sobric Increase turn rate?: Yay- Deceiver_0 JuleTron Volt_Cruelerz Ascension Soasertsus milo896 Howdidudothat lifekatana N3rull Mindseye Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- EadTaes Sobric SivCorp Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?: Yay- Ascension Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Extremor
Nay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Darvin3 milo896 Howdidudothat lifekatana N3rull Mindseye Pbhead EadTaes Ovi_187 Kitkun eoncommander Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?: Yay- milo896 Howdidudothat Mindseye EadTaes Ovi_187 Sobric Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Soasertsus lifekatana Pbhead Raging Amish Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?: Yay- Deceiver_0 (5-10%) Soasertsus(20%AM) Darvin3 milo896 N3rull(speed reduction) Kitkun eoncommander Nay- Howdidudothat lifekatana Mindseye Pbhead EadTaes Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Extremor
Allow 'Jump Degradation' to disable passive regeneration?
Yay- Raging Amish Deceiver_0 Diplominator Juletron Sobric Extremor
Nay- Ovi_187 Howdidudothat Cykur Kitkun No Fix Needed-SKAROVAS ENFORCERThe relative weakness of the Enforcer has recently been brought to the forums attention (thanks JohnJames). With their higher resource cost, higher supply cost and more expensive upgrades, enforcers are unfortunately left in the dust by their counterparts. Many speculate that their extra ability (reintegration) is the cause for such a skewed balance, while others agree that reintegration lacks the power enforcers deserve. The following are some fixes that have been proposed. Personally, I think the Vasari should get a little more for what they pay for. Buff Skarovas Enforcers- Decrease Resource Cost?: Yay- Ascension EadTaes Sobric Nay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Volt_Cruelerz lifekatana Howdidudothat Darvin3 Mindseye Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Decrease Supply Cost?: Yay- Soasertsus Sobric Extremor Nay- Deceiver_0 Volt_Cruelerz lifekatana Howdidudothat Darvin3 Mindseye EadTaes Raging Amish Ovi_187 Kitkun eoncommander Increase hp/shields/armor?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 EadTaes(armor+1) Raging Amish SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander Nay- Volt_Cruelerz Soasertsus lifekatana Howdidudothat Mindseye Ovi_187 Sobric Extremor Increase Damage?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Ascension JuleTron Darvin3 Howdidudothat Mindseye Cykur EadTaes(22) Raging Amish(21.6) Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander Nay- Volt_Cruelerz lifekatana Extremor Cheaper damage upgrades?:
Yay- Deceiver_0 Volt_cruelerz Top Vasari Ascension DesConnor Raging Amish N3rull lifekatana JuleTron Darvin3 Howdidudothat Mindseye EadTaes Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Extremor eoncommander Nay- Soasertsus Ovi_187 Kitkun Higher reintegration rate?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Volt_cruelerz Top Vasari Soasertsus N3rull lifekatana JuleTron Darvin3 Howdidudothat Ovi_187 Sobric Kitkun Nay- Mindseye EadTaes Raging Amish Extremor No Fix Needed- PbheadDOMINA SUBJUGATORSThe domina has been an a lot of peoples (f spending money on that) list for sometime. I tested and observed the subjugator while I was examining carrier caps and wrote a report on them as well. Here's some fixes that have been proposed for the Domina as well as the Stilakus Subverter (whose destiny is quite intertwined with the domina). I'll be putting the Subverter question under the REPULSE section as it has to do more as a counter to it. Buff Domina Subjugators- Increase firing arc of abilities?:
Yay- Deceiver_0 Mindseye Darvin3 Gugabalog Cykur(heal only) Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander Nay- EadTaes lifekatana Pbhead Increase turn rate?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Gugabalog Mindseye Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun eoncommander Nay- EadTaes lifekatana Make abilities AOE?: Yay- Warlord Mike SivCorp eoncommander Nay- Deceiver_0 EadTaes Gugabalog Darvin3 lifekatana Mindseye Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Kitkun Remove channeling from abilities?: Yay- EadTaes Gugabalog lifekatana Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Nay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Mindseye Pbhead Ovi_187 SivCorp eoncommander Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 EadTaes Gugabalog Soasertsus lifekatana Mindseye Pbhead Cykur Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander
Nay- Pbhead No Fix Needed-CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPSI've noticed people use Carrier Caps generally for 1 ability, and not for the strikecraft and SC bonuses they offer. Weaker than most other classes, they are sparse and somewhat unthreatening on the battle field. Personally I think they should offer more benefit in the strike craft department than they do now. I've written a detailed report on them, and taken some of the proposed changes from it for this thread. Buff Carrier Caps- Increase Initial Armor? Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Ryat Howdidudothat Gugabalog Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Nay- Darvin3 -Ue_Carbon mbaron888 Pirate-Jack EadTaes DesConnor Swordsalmon lifekatana Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Extremor eoncommander Increase Squadron Capacity? Yay- Deceiver_0 (see thread) Soasertsus Ryat -Ue_Carbon ReadyMan Howdidudothat mbaron888 Pirate-Jack EadTaes DesConnor Mindseye Swordsalmon Gugabalog N3rull lifekatana -aceca- Derek06 Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander
Nay- Darvin3 Raging Amish Make SC buffs AOE? Yay- EadTaes DesConnor Swordsalmon Gugabalog Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric SivCorp Extremor Nay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Ryat Darvin3 -Ue_Carbon Howdidudothat mbaron888 Pirate-Jack lifekatana Pbhead Ovi_187 Kitkun eoncommander Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? Yay- Deceiver_0 Darvin3 Howdidudothat Mindseye Swordsalmon Gugabalog Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric SivCorp Kitkun Nay- Soasertsus Ryat -Ue_Carbon mbaron888 Pirate-Jack EadTaes DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Ovi_187 Extremor eoncommander Re-work Scramble Bombers? Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Ryat Darvin3 -Ue_Carbon Howdidudothat mbaron888 Pirate-Jack EadTaes DesConnor Mindseye Swordsalmon Gugabalog N3rull lifekatana Pbhead Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- No Fix Needed-LIGHT FRIGATESMost agree that Light Frigates don't scale well. Being limited in their usefulness early game, and becoming almsot complete obsolete late game with Heavy Cruiser research. Many ideas have been thrown around to get light frigates back on the battle field. Buff Light Frigates- Increase Damage?: Yay- TheRezonator Gugabalog Darvin3 -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat JuleTron Pirate-Jack N3rull Ascension Cykur Dargoon999(20%) Raging Amish(Vasari: 12) Ovi_187 SivCorp(10%) Nay- Volt_cruelerz mbaron888 DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead EadTaes Sobric Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Increase Damage bonus to heavy armor type?: Yay- Deceiver_0 TheRezonator Gugabalog -Ue_carbon JuleTron Pirate-Jack Howdidudothat mbaron888 DesConnor(Light) Ascension lifekatana EadTaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish(175%+) Ovi_187 Sobric SivCorp(25%) Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Volt_cruelerz Pbhead Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: Yay- Deceiver_0(armor) TheRezonator Gugabalog Darvin3 JuleTron Ascension lifekatana Dargoon999(10%) Ovi_187 Warlord Mike eoncommander Nay- Volt_cruelerz Pirate-Jack Howdidudothat mbaron888 DesConnor Pbhead EadTaes Raging Amish Sobric SivCorp Kitkun Extremor Increase ability range?: Yay- Deceiver_0 TheRezonator Gugabalog Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon JuleTron Ascension Eadtaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Howdidudothat mbaron888 DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Increase firing arc?: Yay- TheRezonator Gugabalog -Ue_carbon JuleTron Pirate-Jack Howdidudothat DesConnor N3rull Ascension Eadtaes Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Extremor Nay- Volt_cruelerz mbaron888 lifekatana Pbhead Dargoon999 Ovi_187 Kitkun eoncommander Increase turn speed?: Yay- Darvin3 EadTaes TheRezonator Pirate-Jack ReadyMan Howdidudothat mbaron888 DesConnor Mindseye N3rull Ascension Pbhead Eadtaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Extremor eoncommander Nay- lifekatana Kitkun Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: Yay- Deceiver_0 TheRezonator Gugabalog Darvin3 Volt_cruelerz JuleTron Pirate-Jack mbaron888 DesConnor N3rull Ascension lifekatana Eadtaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Howdidudothat Pbhead Nerf Counters- Decrease LRF Damage?: Yay- Proletari Darvin3 Azrak_Navarion ReadyMan Howdidudothat Mindseye Ascension Eadtaes Dargoon999(10%) Nay- Deceiver_0 Volt_cruelerz Pirate-Jack mbaron888 DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor eoncommander
Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?
Yay- Deceiver_0(125%) Ovi_187 Howdidudothat Sobric eoncommander
Nay- N3rull Cykur Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor
Increase LRF resource cost?: Yay- Extremor Nay- Deceiver_0 Pirate-Jack Howdidudothat mbaron888 DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Eadtaes Dargoon999 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun eoncommander No Fix Needed- Soasertsus dresdaREPULSE:Many have said repulse needs a fix. Personally I agree. Nerf Guardians- Increase AM cost?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Raging Amish crashmatusow Ascension Pirate - Jack Volt_cruelerz Tohron Darvin 3 Top vasari mbaron888 Proletari -Ue_carbon Major Stress Mindseye Azrak_Navarion lbgsloan Gugabalog Soasertsus Howdidudothat JuleTron DesConnor lifekatana -aceca- Derek06 Cykur Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- dresda
Increase cooldown rate?
Yay- Raging Amish Deceiver_0 Howdidudothat Kitkun Extremor eoncommander
Nay- Ovi_187 Juletron Sobric Cykur
Decrease AOE?: Yay- Gugabalog -Ue_carbon DesConnor eoncommander Nay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress crashmatusow Mindseye Soasertsus Howdidudothat dresda lifekatana Pbhead Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor Increase resource cost?: Yay- Ascension Volt_cruelerz Sobric Extremor Nay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress Soasertsus Mindseye Gugabalog Howdidudothat dresda DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Kitkun eoncommander Cause damage to shields?: Yay- EadTaes Volt_cruelerz dresda Nay- Major Stress Mindseye Soasertsus Gugabalog Howdidudothat DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Buff Counters- Increase LF ability range?: Yay- Gugabalog TheRezonator Volt_cruelerz Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress Soasertsus Mindseye DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead Ovi_187 No affect to Cap Ships?: Yay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress Volt_cruelerz DesConnor Cykur Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- Mindseye Gugabalog Soasertsus lifekatana Pbhead Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Increase Distortion Field (targeting) range?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Soasertsus Sobric Kitkun eoncommander Nay- lifekatana crashmatusow Pbhead Raging Amish Ovi_187 Extremor No Fix Needed-MISSILE BARRAGE:This has been a heated issue for several months. In the most recent patch, the devs made the graphic unique (red missile exhaust?) and extended the duration while reducing dps. Was this enough? Nerf Missile Barrage- Decrease total damage?: Yay- Extremor Nay- mbaron888 Gugabalog TheRezonator Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat DesConnor Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Increase AM cost? Yay- Ascension Ovi_187 Nay- mbaron888 Gugabalog TheRezonator Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat DesConnor Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike Extremor Decrease AOE? Yay- Tohron mbaron888 Howdidudothat JuleTron DesConnor Sobric Nay- Gugabalog TheRezonator Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Warlord Mike Extremor Buff Counters- Increase range on ability interrupts?: Yay- Tohron TheRezonator Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Extremor Nay- Gugabalog Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat DesConnor LF abilities can target caps?: Yay- Gugabalog TheRezonator Sobric Warlord Mike Nay- Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat DesConnor N3rull Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Extremor Graphic/Audio Improvement?: Yay- Eadtaes Deceiver_0 Volt_cruelerz Gugabalog TheRezonator -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat N3rull lifekatana Derek06 Cykur Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor eoncommander Nay- DesConnor No Fix Needed- Deceiver_0 EadTaes Azrak_Navarion Major Stress Top vasari Soasertsus ReadyMan lifekatana SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander CARRIERS:Extensively nerfed in the previous 2 patches, carriers have lost their place as a hard counter to long ranged frigates, as flak frigates can now destroy fighters much faster than they are built, and long ranged frigates can now hunt the carriers themselves down. Buff Carriers- Decrease build penalty?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Ascension crashmatusow Pirate - Jack mbaron888 Volt_cruelerz lbgsloan Gugabalog Top vasari Soasertsus Howdidudothat JuleTron N3rull lifekatana Derek06 Cykur Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun eoncommander Nay- DesConnor Raging Amish Extremor Increase fighter HP?: Yay- Ascension Mindseye Azrak_Navarion Gugabalog Howdidudothat Derek06 Extremor Nay- Pirate - Jack mbaron888 Volt_cruelerz Soasertsus DesConnor lifekatana Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Reduce movement penalty?: Yay- Tohron Soasertsus Raging Amish mbaron888 Gugabalog Howdidudothat JuleTron ReadyMan DesConnor Derek06 Sobric SivCorp Extremor Nay- Pirate - Jack crashmatusow lifekatana Cykur Deceiver_0 Ovi_187 Kitkun Nerf Counters- Reduce Flak rate of fire?: Yay- EadTaes Warlord Mike eoncommander Nay- Mindseye Gugabalog Volt_cruelerz Soasertsus Howdidudothat DesConnor lifekatana Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Kitkun Extremor No Fix Needed- Major Stress -Ue_carbon PbheadSCOUTS:With the recent nerf to carriers, scouts have come to the forefront as a decent anti-lrf ship, and with their new found popularity some changes have been suggested. Nerf Scouts- Reduce damage buff against light armor?: Yay- Volt_cruelerz Ovi_187 Nay- Deceiver_0 Ascension Soasertsus Gugabalog Howdidudothat Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor Increase scout supply requirement?: Yay- Nay- Ascension Pirate - Jack Volt_cruelerz Gugabalog TheRezonator Soasertsus Howdidudothat Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor
Increase resource cost?: Yay- Nay- Ascension Pirate - Jack Volt_cruelerz Gugabalog TheRezonator Soasertsus Howdidudothat Derek06 Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun Extremor Buff Vasari Scouts- Increase Hp/Shields?: Yay- Deceiver_0 Raging Amish Volt_cruelerz Ascension Pirate - Jack Soasertsus Mindseye TheRezonator Howdidudothat Derek06 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Dargoon999 Extremor Nay- Gugabalog Ovi_187 Increase damage?: Yay- Ascension Raging Amish Volt_cruelerz Gugabalog TheRezonator Soasertsus Howdidudothat Derek06 Cykur(+.5dps) Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Dargoon999 Nay- Extremor No Fix Needed- EadTaes mbaron888 JuleTron Major Stress -Ue_carbon ReadyMan DesConnor lifekatana Pbhead eoncommanderILLUMINATORS:The relative strength of illuminators has been under debate for some time, and many fixes have been proposed, here are a few, let me know if you’ve got others. I've done my own research, and have posted my findings. Nerf Illuminators- Increase resource cost?: Yay- Ascension Volt_cruelerz Ovi_187 Pirate - Jack EadTaes Top vasari lbgsloan Gugabalog Azrak_Navarion Soasertsus Howdidudothat Derek06 Extremor Nay- Major Stress -Ue_carbon lifekatana Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun eoncommander Adjust damage division between beams?: Yay- Deceiver_0(33%) mbaron888 -Ue_carbon Gugabalog DesConnor N3rull Ascension Derek06 Raging Amish(33%) Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike eoncommander Nay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress Soasertsus Howdidudothat lifekatana Kitkun Extremor Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Yay- Pirate - Jack (hp only) EadTaes TheRezonator Ascension Gugabalog -Ue_carbon Soasertsus Howdidudothat DesConnor -aceca- Derek06 Cykur Raging Amish(Hp&Armor) Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike SivCorp Kitkun Extremor(450/500) eoncommander Nay- Major Stress Volt_cruelerz Soasertsus lifekatana Increase supply requirement?: Yay- DesConnor Derek06 Kitkun Nay- Pirate - Jack Major Stress Volt_cruelerz Gugabalog Soasertsus Howdidudothat lifekatana Raging Amish Ovi_187 Sobric Warlord Mike Extremor eoncommander Decrease Damage?: Yay- EadTaes Ascension Soasertsus Major Stress Gugabalog ReadyMan DesConnor(Caps only) N3rull lifekatana Ovi_187 Extremor Nay- Volt_cruelerz -Ue_carbon Howdidudothat Derek06 Raging Amish Sobric Warlord Mike Kitkun eoncommander No Fix Needed- mbaron888 Mindseye dresda Pbhead
More to come-
Holy crap. Kudos to you if you keep this thread up.
I have so much f-ing free time, I'm on here almost every day, and probably will be for awhile.
Yet another useless "what i want" thread... Sorry to come off like that, but this is exactly what it is.
Nobody ever stops to think about this..
What about the vision the developer's had for thier own game?
Originally sins was supposed to be all open mapped. No phase lanes. Orbiting planets, moons etc. But then came the multiplayer aspect which IMO is what killed those aspirations. So in came the phase lanes. Single objects per gravity well. chokepoints, and alot of buffing, and nerfing because no one seems to like how it plays in multiplayer despite the developers bests efforts to please you guys. Instead of staying true to thier own vision of what sins "should" be. I dont think sins is anything close to what the developers really wanted. Dont get me wrong it is a great game in its present state. I just think it is not a "complete" game knowing what was intended for the game, and didnt happen...Thanks to the multiplayer aspect, and sorry to say topics like this one where every kid bitching about "what they want" in the game. Do not help. If the developers granted every "wish", and the MP fans had thier way we would have superweapons that would kill everything in a grav well with one shot. Uberships, and ridiculously powered weapons, with no defenses to counter them. Look at all of the post similar to this one and you will see my point. I am just sorry it was this post i picked on. There are many like this i could have targeted. It is nothing personal against the OP.
I thought the game was balanced just fine before entrenchment came out. and early versions of entrenchment seemed to be ok to me. Yet there always seems to be "someone" who will not be happy no matter what the dev's do. They are indeed bending over backwards to make all the unnecessary changes that are being demanded by the fans. Deviating from thier own vision of what the original game should have been like to satisfy you guys.
Something new for the relentless MP crowd to think about.
Buff Vasari Scouts DMG and HP
Nerf Iums Resource cost
Carriers Increase fighter hp , Decrease build penalty.
Scouts no change. period.
Missile Barrage Increase Am Use
Repulse Increase AM cost and Resource Cost
Since you refer to the MP crowd as though you were not one of them you'd don't have the range of experience needed to comment on what is balanced or not in a multiplayer game. Suffice to say the most difficult (and most rewarding, imo) part of the game is multiplayer because when compared to a living, breathing human the AI just cannot compete. The AI does not use a tenth of the tactics and strategies human players use so a person playing single player will not notice half the problems an online player will.
The fact of the matter is that in multiplayer winning and losing can and does come down to the balance between counters in game. Like the carrier debate for instance. Flak frigates destroy fighters way too quickly for them to have a lasting effect on a battle, which means that long range frigates (illums especially) are capable of living longer and in greater numbers due to the effects of a very small number of flak frigates. Since LRMs have no other hard counters except scouts (which are extremely easy to destroy with anything other than an LRM) and Heavy Cruisers (which already have a nice counter ring with bombers and cost a hell of a lot more) it means LRM spammers can happily build only one unit with a bit of support and win.
That's why the more vocal online players are bitching about it, because it's not about skill or strategy or tactics if you can win the game with one uncounterable unit, which takes the fun out of the game entirely.
And now for something completely different.
On topic:
Guardians: Increase AM cost & Cap Ships Unaffected
Missile Barrage: Haven't tested it fully yet, will get back to that later
Carriers: Decrease Build Penalty
Scouts: Increase Vasari HP/Shields
Illuminators: Increase resource cost & Decrease HP (not shields)
I'm against the rest of them.
Gardian: Decrease AM and cause dmg to sheild to repulse.
MB: No fix needed need to improve the visual and add a sound maybe.
Carriers: Actuly reducint the refire rate on flak would be a better idea from my calculations.
Scouts: No fix needed
Lums: Need either a reduction in dmg, reduction in overall sturdiness or and increase in cost. Lums are more like HCs then LRFs
ALELUYA
For guardians, I favor increasing AM cost, for Missile Barrage, I favor both reducing the AoE and increasing the range of Interrupting abilities, and for Carriers, I favor eliminating the movement penalty.
Everyone should agree that a good RTS should avoid encouraging the spam of a single unit or ability, and all the above changes would help ensure that many strategies remain viable.
I understand your argument but, I think about it like this: They didn't include a Single Player Storyline in the game, AND they continue patching attempting to get that perfect balance. That specifically tells me they poured a lot of resources and time into making it Multiplayer friendly, whether playing with friends against AI or playing against other humans.
And trust me when I say that I personally, and about everyone whose ever made an argument over a specific balance, truely appreciate the fact that the DEVs listen to us and continue to try and achieve that balance. I've already thanked them for everything: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/341335
The point of this post is not to complain, but do weed out the real issues and help the devs solve them for the better of the Sins community they've built here and on ICO. This game has one of the nsot complicated balance systems I've seen in a strategy game, and it only makes sense that the balance wouldn't be perfect, but I look back at the old versions and see how far it's come and get hopeful that it's almost there.
Sure there will always be people complaining about this and that. But the POINT behind this thread is to sort minor whining complaints from real issues that need to be addressed and find the most logical (and agreeable) way to address them, to help the devs get that perfect balance everyone here yearns for.
I still invite you to comment an make suggestions, if you feel nothing needs to be changed just say so and I'll put your vote on the board.
What? Nothing about light frigates up there? The forgotten and forsaken unit type, they seem to be. Ah well, a LRF nerf (seems the blood everyone is screaming for these days is LRF...) will certainly help them.
As far as guardians go, I do think an AM cost increase is good, but I don't think it will fix the problem on its own. It goes deeper, down to the fundamental issue that a big compact fleet is an effective fleet, without exception. This makes the guardian an idea support cruiser. No amount of tweaking will fix that entirely. So, my opinion would be:
I think missile barrage is a nasty one to talk about. As I said in the "nerf the damn marza" thread, the problem is more that it's either countered and becomes worthless, or it's not countered and it smokes your whole fleet. My suggestion would be to lower its duration (and therefore number of waves) but also lower its cooldown and anti-matter cost accordingly. This keeps its DPS the same, but prevents it from wiping out a fleet in one use. On the other hand, it also means it will recharge sooner so you get a second chance if it was countered.
Carriers, I think are also a hard one to deal with. The problem is you can stick a dozen flaks in a very tight formation inside your fleet, and any fighters that attempt to attack you get toasted. If we actually had a good way to break up an enemy army, then a world opens up where fighters can be microed around the flaks to avoid fire, and the speed of the LF actually might give it some utility in bringing down the flaks. To phrase it another way, the problem is that mobility isn't very useful in the current meta-game, so all battles boil down to a battle of attritian, which flaks and LRF excel at. I say instead of making carriers better at a battle of attritian, focus on the meta-game that is belittling their biggest asset: mobility. As you say, however, that's a bigger change that's probably beyond the scope of a mere patch. Still:
As far as scouts go, I'm going to have to stay neutral. I'm uncertain of improving Vasari scouts since they're already like cockroaches when it comes to snagging neutrals. They only die if their owner wasn't paying attention or if a bunch of carriers warp in and catch them off guard. On the other hand, they are indeed weaker than their racial equivalents. So, neutral on all counts.
Similarly, I'm going to stay neutral on illuminators. A small nerf wouldn't be a bad thing, but there's nothing inherently wrong with Advent having a strong LRF; the Advent has such strong synergy within their faction that you could nerf just about any other unit and it would impact the effectiveness of the LRF.
Like i said i had nothing personal against you Deciever, and you made some very good reply's to my coments which i respect greatly.
The point i was trying to make is that we try not to push the dev's into making Sins a mockery of what the original intended game was supposed to be with all of our "fix this" "buff that", or "nerf that" posts.
You're right i dont play multiplayer. I was a big supporter of better AI during the beta days. If you look at the game credits you will see my name there. I pushed for harder, and less stupid AI. I dont play multiplayer because i just dont like the "kid" crowd. I play to have fun. Not deal with "im leet, and you suck" drama. Some of the younger generation here take this game, and other MP games like supcom way WAY too seriously. It is just a game.
Nerf illuminator dps slightly, or increase beam recharge times. Leave all else alone. A mediocre vasari player can easily smoke an advent player because of phase missiles. Advent rely too much on shields, and fighters.
Guardian: I agree to only increase AM cost, but leave all else alone. Also push shouldnt effect cap ships.
Leave missile barrage alone. It is not all that powerful. Plus vasari dreads dont have the staying power like the marza does. It is almost useless other than for the missile barrage ability. A tec fleet with 2 dunov's, and 5 hoshinko's can easily counter it, but i dont know what i am talking about since i dont do MP :/
Leave the carriers alone. In fact i suggest that if carriers jump out that the straggling fighters are instantly destroyed if they are left behind. Light carriers were practically superweapons before all the nerf's. I remember a game where a guy jumped in 60 carriers, and nothing else. This was of course before the cost and fleet supply increase. He jumped the carriers out, but his bombers stayed behind, and destroyed everything. The early AI had a bad habit of spamming carriers as well. Now would you think of building 60+ flak frigs, and LRF's to counter this? Carriers have always been a problem since the early days. and the nerf bitching is because the dev's are trying to make them what they were intended to be from the start. SUPPORT SHIPS. Not front line spammable units. Advent seem to be the exception to the rule, because they have more wings per unit than other factions. They seem to rely too heavily on strike craft now.
I personally agree to leave scouts alone. They dont seem to be IMBA other than vasari roid capping. I am glad they added the spot mine ability which makes them usefull late game.
He jumped out and left strikecraft behind?!?! Is this even possible? Because I thought SC auto docked when you jumped out regardless.
---------------
My answers. And thanks Deciever for consolidating all the ideas into one thread.
Nerf Guardians- Increase AM cost?: Yay
Nerf Missile Barrage- Decrease total damage?: Nay
Increase AM cost? Nay-
Decrease AOE? Yay- I'm willing to see it narrowed to a 90 degree cone if it will make people happy. Let's give it a try anyway.
Buff Carriers- Decrease build penalty?: Yay-
Increase fighter HP?: Nay-
Reduce movement penalty?: Yay-
Put carriers back to the way they were (Sins version 1.12) and we won't need to nerf Illums or wonder what to do with light frigates.
The carrier nerf has broken the triangle.
Nerf Scouts- Reduce damage buff against light armor?: Nay-
Increase scout supply requirement?: Nay-
Increase resource cost?: Nay-
No Fix Needed- Leave scouts alone.
Nerf Illuminators- Nay
No Fix Needed- (see carriers) I'm not really sure what to do about Illums. Their overall dps is comparible to other LRF/Fleet supply. Maybe just move the damage more to the forward beams so the have to turn more.
add me for increasing guardian repulse AM cost...everything else is fine,except vasa sb abuse and lf/lrf stats but thats another story
vas subverter abuse? its 20 seconds. youre just mad i blasted your entire fleet prol. use logic. not emotion.
ilums need a significant nerf that follows the lines of the advent thinking... low hull high shielding. thats how it should be.. therefore i suggest that lums be dropped to 500-550 hull points on par with the TEC lrm. you can drop its shielding maybe 50 points right now as its got more shielding than a TEC HEAVY CRUISER. other than that id prob decrease its dmg... maybe down to 15.5 7 dmg on the front. 4 on the sides. that way its significantly MORE powerful than the others lrms just it wont tear through ships like paper.
Yes it is still possible to jump in carriers, launch bombers then jump them right out before the bombers dock. The bombers will continue to attack until they "scuttle". It is harder to do it now than it was before, but it still can be done. Perhaps this was the "kite-ing" the dev's were reffering to.
You can't. The meoment carriers jump out all strike craft intant dock. If SC remain behing until they auto destruct it means that teh carrier host has been destroyed.
I like this idea.
Kite-ing is the term for the tactic of circling the outer edge of a gravity well with your carriers. Keeping them on the move prevents certain units from dealing loads of damage to them, and thus keeps them alive for much longer than if they were holding position. They added a movement nerf to carriers to discourage this tactic, but I believe they also increased the movement speed of the carriers hard counter LF several patches ago to limit kiteing, so in a sense they seem to have nerfed carriers twice for the same reason.
I believe proletari is talking about Starbases, not subverters. There has been much debate over these Starbases even when Entrenchment was in the beta. I plan on adding that topic in a few days, so check back often.
Hence why I dont see why they nerfed carrier speed sicne if you were using the counter then kitting didnt matter to much. Nerfing carrier speed did only 1 thing encorage more LRF spams.
This was debated before and the result will be the same. It will remain as is so don't even bother with it.
Your absolutely right, but I'm trying to be objective, so my personal opinion (that happens to be the same as yours) will not prevent me from posting the argument
I have 2 major problems with this kind of feedback.
1) Most people play TEC, to a lesser extent people play Advent and even less popular Vasari. If you leave it to the community to decide then that order of popularity WILL become the order of effectiveness in game.
2) All this whining is from multiplayer people who play small quick games, I don't want my single player games balanced and effected based solely on 2 or 3 hour games.
1) The least people play TEC. Most people play advent followed by Vasari.
2) Any of the stats changes will ahve little incidence ont he single player as the AI still will not chnage the way it plays the game.
I believe that no one {except maybe the developers} really knows that for sure. If your basing it on the Starbase poll, then your logic is flawed. Most people here are giving their opinion on how to improve the game's balance, not which race should be better than the others.
That's fine I can understand that because I dont wan't my multiplayer games balanced and effected solely on 4+ hour games 1 person plays against Ai who don't understand strategy and have a very limited understanding of the games mechanics.
But on this thread we both have an equal voice, so we find balance. Shall I put oyu down across the board as a "No fix needed"? I still need you to declare a definite position if I am to accurately represent you here.
You seem to have issue with the Content of the thread rather than the thread its self, which is why you should cast a vote. The thread itself is a compilation and organization of other threads discussions and arguments. If you take issue with these, I made a slot just for you (and incidentally me on some) as "No fix needed", place your complaints over "Mp players whining" on the other threads please.
Add hp to fighters.
Flak needs no fix.
Carriers back to 25% build rate.
Buff to Vas scout Hp.
Add am cost to repulse no other fixes needed.
Illums need no fix.
Incease malice time to collect damage.
Decrease kol main gun am cost.
Make dunovs abilities so that it doesnt have to face target.
Reduce armor penalty for nano.
Reduce damage lrf do to lf.
Posiibly make sovas armor buff to fighters for all carriers within a range of the sova.(make the armor buffs less than they currently are)
Nice thread. Could be a bit more condesned.
-LRMs in general need to cost more (cost and supply). They are effective against many units and defences, so this versitility should be punished. Illums could probably use additional nerfs on top of that; they are far too durable for such a powerful long range weapon.
-Agree with carrier build time penalty reduction, and guardian AM cost increase.
-No opinion on the other issues listed.
Not discussed on the OP:
-Light frigates desperately need a buff. They don't scale well due to low DPS (% based weapon upgrades don't help them much) and get completely demolished by LRMs before they can even get to the units they are supposed to counter.
-Carrier caps desperately need a buff, as no one uses them. Having a few extra strike craft slots does NOT make up for having the worst firepower and health, and the strike craft build penalty hurt them badly. Early game they lose to any other cap (even the support type ones) and they also tend to have weak level 6 abiltiies. Since most competitive Sins games end without building a 2nd cap ship, carrier caps just have no chance at ever seeing use.
_~Guardians~_
Repulse:
Yay
Nay
Buff Counters:
_~MB OF DOOM! (I've won games with rep bays in a star formation around this a pji and the rest of the slots used on hangars with flak.) GO PJI!~_
_~Carriers~_
_~Scouts~_
_~Illuminator Scum Spammers~_
I hope that this is looked at.
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