Who do you think wins in the HC department?
enforcers take up 12 supply vs 10 for the other 2
so 25 vs 30 should be fair right?
Replay
(updated 6/26/09)
Using Entrenchment 1.03
Build time Damage Slow/Normal/Fast Costdestra 19.0 58 / 53 / 48 sec. $525 100m 90ckodiak 18.0 60 / 55 / 50 sec. $500 100m 70cEnforcer 20.0 72 / 65 / 60 sec. $625 150m 110c
300 supply calculations Damage total build time on fast Costdestra(30) 570 1440 sec. $15750 3000m 2700ckodiak(30) 540 1500 sec. $15000 3000m 2100cEnforcer(25) 500 1500 sec. $15625 3750m 2750c
V = VasariA = AdventT = Tec
lvl 3 = All upgrades up to lvl 3 (damage, shields, armor, hp, combat abilities)full ups = All combat upgrades possible (tec speed and vas slow ability not used)
Ships survivedV v A no ups 10 AV v A lvl 3 15 A <-- This is just wrongV v A full ups 16 A <-- So is this
V v T no ups 8 TV v T lvl 3 17 T <-- Very broken (due to early upgrades)V v T full ups 9 T
A v T no ups 4 T A v T lvl 3 8 TA v T full ups 12 A <-- Drastic Change
Basically Vas HC suck. They dont win any battles. 25 Enforcers cost the same as 30 HCfor the other 2 races yet they lose badly to their counter part. with equal upgradesthey lose more.
With no or little upgrades Tec HC rules
Advent HC will dominate if fully upgraded. Advent has the only cap ability to increase damage
Devs please rebalance.
Vas HC is tied with tec in terms as total build time. Cost wise they are 3875 more then advent HC and 8625 more then TEC HC If you do the standard 500 creds per 100 metal/crystal. So the test should be 22.4 VS 30 against advent and 18.6 vs 30 against TEc if you want to do cost vs cost for vas. For tec vs advent it would 30 vs 27.5. I cant imagine how skewed and screwed the test would be. Also Vas hc has the least amount of total damage.
So using again the standard 500 creds per metal/crystal HC cost
Vas: 1925
Advent: 1475
Tec: 1350
Vas Hc take up 20% fleet supply, cost 30.5% more then advent and 42.6% then TEC HC.
Now man, that really depends on the upgrades you use...
My money is on the Kodies. Best Default Armor. Reintegration on the Enforcer could be the tipping factor in that battle. Destras actually do the best DPS per ship slot of all the HC's.
Good question. Only experiments will tell. Kodies vs. Destras is probalby gonna be a tight one. Kodies are slightly tougher. Destras do slightly more damage. The enforcer results rely soly on whether it's got reintegration or not. Should be interesting
I wouldn't be surprised if the Destras are the best. The numbers say Kodies though. Against Destras though it's gonna be close.
Unupgraded Prediction: Kodies>Destras>Enforcers
This is a tough one... If you incorporate abilities, that system reverses...
Kodiak<Destra<Enforcer
The kody ability is not combat related and thus is not the best... Destras can damage everything near them so that would likely give them the edge. Enforcers can just switch to reintegration and heal back the damage you've dealt... Kodies are about 18 dps and destras are 21-ish. Reintegration heals 30 per second. By that token, they can simply heal back any damage you deal them and more. Once it has enough health, it switches back to normal and starts shooting again. Rinse and repeat.
I will test both fully upgraded and no upgrades.
With ships focus firing on one ship, reintegration doesnt do much until the end where there are few ships.
IMO you can't judge fights like that soley on fleet capacity, you gotta look at dps, mitigation, hull and shield.
I was talking about 1 on 1 fights between the HC's... I know that never happens, but it was hypothetical...
true... one illum can kill three cobalts easily and possibly four...
You should micro reintegration. When I use it I micro it so it is on as soon as I lose my shields.That way you get the full effect otherwise the ships autocasts it when its near death and it hardly even absobrs any dpsbecause it dies to fast.
I realy don't know it'S going to be a tight battle. From my calculations long ago the HCs were prety damned well balanced between them selves. But I could be wrong it was a long time ago and I stoped at the initial calculations since it seemed fair. Atleast on paper.
In my first thread about lums people didnt like how it was a 1v1 battle. Not realistic enough. AI does reintegration at 50% of hp. Maybe Devs will allow us to set when the ai should autocast this ability in game.
The devs also need to know when click on an abilaty weatehr or not the whole group should use it.
Like when i got hoshikos selected I click on repair and click on my target only 1 ship will recive that repair order.
But with Kodiacs I have 10 selected and want them to use their boost abilaty only 1 will use it the rest wil continue at normal speed.
Also the AI can be retarder like Casting 3-4 times repair bots on 1 ship that has it already casted it on. Wastes alot of AM. Would be nice if the AI wasn't retarded like that.
Well I didnt like the actual 1v1 but the tests where you put 100 ilums against 140 kanracks was informative.As long as they make fighters usable again I wouldnt mind an increase in recources for ilums like I mentioned but the prob is as of now that advent players are playing catch up to a vas rush and early eco advantage and if fighters wont work all they have is ilums.So if kanracks equally matched up then advent couldnt stop a rush well besides using scouts which I would really hate to see it come to that.
These are the stats of the HC's and LRF's for each race if you look at 60 ships slots. This is where I made my assumption for who'd win. Kodies have the most bombined Hull/Shield of the three. Crusaders are second. Enforcers are third. Take this chart for what you will.
Note the Damage multipliers haven't been applied. LRF's do 75% damage against HC. HC does 150% against LRF. HC's beat the LRF.
Advent is far from playing catch up Mind.
Give me resource amounts to. All my calculations need the resources to evaluate. Without them it's pointless. Fleet supply is a terrible judge for balance.
Actually, I think fleet supply is the best judge for balance. I've got numbers floating around, so I'll send them your way, but you've gotta remember something.
People max their fleet out to whatever level of taxation they're at, and probalby sit there for a while. At least that's what I do. There's no sense in getting bigger, so what you see is a fleet that stays the same size. That's why comparing ship slot for ship slot is the wisest test method to get a baseline figure in your head before you start tweaking.
It's worth noting that the guy who just gets ships, and ships, and more ships, and never upgrades his fleet will probably lose. Cost analysis is valid, yes, but it's the second method I go to, not the first.
Yeah, not on fleet slots alone. What about costs? You should also compare cost for similar fleet capacity. But that gets further complicated by varying values for metal & crystal.
Nah you will always eventuly max out you supply. But in battles what works best is what cost dot he unit has sicne the more fleet you have the more you econ is nerfed so the more expensive you losses are. And at the end of the day si the economic weight a unit has on the battlefeild the determinds how powerfull it is.
I have done test will equal fleet supply were one side would always masively win over the other. And that teh only way to achive balance were the battle could wing either way was with their cost.
It's why lums are broken booth fleet supply wise and cost wise they don't add up with the other races. They always win by a large marging no matter what.
For variaing value always consider a purchase at 500 credits. Witch gives you a 5:1 Credit to resource ratio. By using that I have found the points of equilibrium of the units all sides. Fleet supply rarely gave an equilibrium.
Yes but when jj test had factored in vas rush advantage and it was 27-20 and ilums won but by 3 so if you factor in the time with it vas can still have a good margin of numbers very very early on compared to ilums.I do agree that head to head they are more powerful but maybe they should be.Its also harder to support a fleet the farther away it is.You shouldnt have to counter ilums with kanracks tho.Fighters should work and vice versa.Remeber to ilums are at a big disadvantage when taking out caps because of side beams.If they nerf damage I hope it is just in side beams.They are barely long range too.
Hosnet the damage is fine IMO. Whats wrogn is their resistance and their cost. Either they shoudl cost more or their HP should be droped some.
Kodiaks are definitely the best overall. Their relevant upgrades are very early in the tech tree and they offer a great economy in terms of performance for their cost. If it runs late game, however, and Advent manages to finish the plasma research line, I'm shifting to the destra's camp. That thing is ridiculously difficult to fully upgrade, but it's fricken scary when it is. I think the Enforcer is a great stand-alone heavy cruiser thanks to its self-healing ability, but its attack upgrade (which, worse yet, is exclusive to it) is really high in the tech tree and this makes it costly to pursue.
updated
The biggest surprise in those results is Advent's performance against Vasari. The TEC vs Vasari results don't surprise, and the TEC vs Advent results are almost exactly as I expected them to be. I'm extremely surprised that Advent won (by a considerable margin, no less) the unupgraded battle and low-tech battle against Vasari, but what surprises me more is that the improvement to maximum tech was negligible in this case. I'd be interesting in knowing how that happened.
I don't think there's any problem with fully upgraded destras mopping the floor with the other fleets. Advent has a lot more high level military technologies available for research, but far fewer high level economic technologies than the other races. It'd be pretty unfair if they didn't have some military edge late game. In practice, we also know that repulse doesn't work very well with destras, so there is a tactical price to pay for using them as well.
The big surprise here is just how terrible Vasari heavy cruisers are. I'd agree they're definitely in line for a buff. TEC heavy cruisers are on the strong side, but they're still within reason. If Vasari get buffed so they're stronger than destras in an unupgraded battle, I think all is fine.
Okay 2 changes to be made to it. Reduce suppl cost from 12 to 10. and reduce cost from $625 150m 110c to $550 125m 90c So Old cost 1925$ new cost 1650
So do a test 30V vs 30T/A
and 30V vs 36T and 33A (this is the new equilibrium for cost) See how that works out.
Did the math no run a test and see how it comes out. Also I am assuming you were using reintergration durring the tests.
Vasari units are typically higher supply. Light frigate, flak, scout, and heavy cruiser are all the highest command cost of their respective unit classes. The LRF is the only combat-type unit which Vasari do not have the highest command cost. I think this is part of their faction flavour, and shouldn't change. Increasing their performance (rather than decreasing cost) is the way to go IMO. I think a damage buff would be the best approach; if I could hazard a ballpark number, I'd say 25.
Should have been; great ability and really easy to access. No excuse not to have it if you're making HC's.
25 is a bit high I woudl start only with 22 to beging with. But adjusting the cost is simply and limits effect from unforcen variables. If you can balance then with cost only then you shoul. Because current Vasari HC are expensive as hell.
Tec 1350$Advent 1475$Vasari 1925$ my lower cost brign it down to 1650$ witch is much more reasonable.
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