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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
Cykur
Join Date 03/2003
+48
Reply #201 July 10, 2009 6:39:42 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Buff Siege Frigates

Increase Hp/shields/armor?: N
Change armor type (currently light)?: N
Decrease Resource cost?: N
Decrease Supply Cost?: Y
Increase Bombardment damage?: N
Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Y
Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?:   No reason to if you make Fallout Active
Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Y

 

Siege Frigates should be kind of fragile...trust me, you don't want to go back to the days of Marauding siege fleets blowing up your worlds before you can even kill them.  Still, I agree the fleet supply cost is way too high, and experience should probably be reduced a bit.

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Deceiver_0
Ryat
Join Date 06/2006
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Reply #202 July 10, 2009 6:45:29 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

while we are requesting changes for next patch may I bring up another issue

this has to do with the phasic trap for the hangars belonging to the Vasari

they seem to be set for autocast and cast continuosly

this causes problems when fighters/bombers are in production as this slows it down

I request that either turn off the autocast when we build them or fix the AI that controls the autocast because when you have several in a chokepoint area it gets kind of lame to have to check 5 to 10 different hangars

edit: I do think something needs to be done for the lowly siege frigate (possible a slight increase of toughness) so put me up for yes on armor/hitpoints/shieldpoints and possible a yes on Heavy Fallout being an active instead of passive with application to pirates. Also decrease of supply points (down to 10 perhaps)

nay for the rest

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #203 July 10, 2009 6:54:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

trust me, you don't want to go back to the days of Marauding siege fleets blowing up your worlds before you can even kill them

I'd agree, but they're a far cry from that right now.  They could be buffed quite modestly and still be easily taken down.  Remember that siege frigates have the same armour type as LRF, so a scout rush will be a perfect answer to a siege frigate rush.  No tech cost, a cheap unit that can easily outrun the unit it's countering, and you're now set up to counter LRF.  Quick start should also help matters.  I don't think the conditions that created the silly siege frigate harassment in the early versions of the game still exist.

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N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #204 July 10, 2009 6:55:58 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 24
 Vasari bombers are IMO the strongest in the game. 
All you've said just does not matter.
Their superior armor and HPs matter only against, say, three flaks. Five or more flak frigs or one fighter squadron will one-shot a bomber. They're so pitifully few and rebuild so slowly, their awesome amounts of hps don't really matter. Sure, if there is no anti-bomber defense, they're nice. With massed fighters and flaks around, they are too few, they don't die slow enough and don't rebuild fast enough.
You said they have +75% ish bonus to damage compared to the pitiful +30% of others. Well, "others" have either cheaper carrier production (tec) or have 3 squadrons of 7 bombers in each (advent).
Nec Hercules contra plures as we say in Poland.

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 24
 
Vasari don't have any dedicated anti-structure cruiser


I don't think they need one. 

That's exactly what I said, if you care to read it thoroughly.

But I do think that
if
TEC can build and send 30 Ogrovs that will deal 10000 damage over 20 seconds
Advent can build 20 starfish that will deal 4000 damage to 5 structures over 20 seconds

then
their Vasari equivalent, the Orky, should be able to deal at least some sensible portion of that if you pay a ton of cash on upgrading it.
Right now, a repair bay combined with the shield recharging power of the Advent hangar defense is enough to mitigate 90% of the damage done by a 2-assault upgraded orky. Laugh!!

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
+25
Reply #205 July 10, 2009 6:59:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'll give a new reply. to amke things clear incase some things have changed.

Siege Frigates

Buff Siege Frigates

Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yes. They could use some but it's not the prioraty.

Change armor type (currently light)?: Change to heavy.

Decrease Resource cost?: Yes definately.

Decrease Supply Cost?: Yes from 14 to 10

Increase Bombardment damage?: No

Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: What would that change? A TEC player deciding when to use fallout or not No.

Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: No

Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Yes 10-15 is enought.

Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yes

Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Yes

No Fix Needed-


SEREVUN OVERSEER

Buff Serevun Overseers-

Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yes

YesIncrease turn rate?: No

Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?: No

Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?: Yes some

Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?: NO

No Fix Needed-

SKAROVAS ENFORCER

Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

Decrease Resource Cost?: Yes

Decrease Supply Cost?: No

Increase hp/shields/armor?: Yes Armor by 1 point.

Increase Damage?: Yes from 20 to 22.

Cheaper damage upgrades?: Pulse and Waves should be same weapons, If so no dmg increase.

Higher reintegration rate?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

Buff Domina Subjugators-

Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yes

Increase turn rate?: Yes only if firing arc is not increased

Make abilities AOE?: HELL NO

Remove channeling from abilities?: Yes only if this is only change.

Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?: Yes This woudl also help all otehr support cruisers, no poitn in casting the same effect twice on the same target

No Fix Needed-

 

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

Buff Carrier Caps- Posted this in the linked carrier thread I still stand by it.

Increase Initial Armor? NO

Increase Squadron Capacity? YES

Make SC buffs AOE? Yes

Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? No

Re-work Scramble Bombers? Yes

Give them Flak guns? Yes but not stronger then 2 flak frigates.

No Fix Needed-

 

LIGHT FRIGATES

Buff Light Frigates-

Increase Damage?: No

Increase Damage bonus to armor type?: Yes Either raze dmg to equal LRFs or lower LRFs dmg to equal LFs. https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356140

Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: No

Increase ability range?: Yes

Increase firing arc?: Yes

Increase turn speed?: Yes

Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: Yes

Nerf Counters-

Decrease LRF Damage?: Yes, if you do not increase LFs dmg vs ligth armor

Increase resource cost?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

REPULSE:

Nerf Guardians-

Increase AM cost?: Yes

Decrease AOE?: Don't see how it could be reduced further.

Increase resource cost?: No

Cause damage to shields?: Yes

Buff Counters-

Increase LF ability range?: Yes

No affect to Cap Ships?: No

Increase Distortion Field activation range?: No

No Fix Needed-

 

MISSILE BARRAGE:

Nerf Missile Barrage-

Decrease total damage?: No

Increase AM cost? No

Decrease AOE? No

Buff Counters-

Increase range on ability interrupts?: No

LF abilities can target caps?: No

Graphic Improvement?: Yes

Custom sound? Yes

No Fix Needed-

 

CARRIERS:

Buff Carriers-

Decrease build penalty?: Yes

Increase fighter HP?: No

Reduce movement penalty?: Yes

Nerf Counters-

Reduce Flak rate of fire?: Yes, only if build penalty is not completly removed.

No Fix Needed-

 

SCOUTS:

Nerf Scouts-

Reduce damage buff against light armor?: No

Increase scout supply requirement?: No

Increase resource cost?: No

Buff Vasari Scouts-

Increase Hp/Shields?: No

Increase damage?: No

No Fix Needed- Yes no fix needed.

 

ILLUMINATORS:

Nerf Illuminators-

Increase resource cost?: Yes

Adjust damage division between beams?: Not gonna do anything much so No.

Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Yes

Increase supply requirement?: Could help some but only some so a small yes.

Decrease Damage?: No Their should be more like a glass cannon.

No Fix Needed-

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #206 July 10, 2009 7:34:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

All you've said just does not matter.
Their superior armor and HPs matter only against, say, three flaks. Five or more flak frigs or one fighter squadron will one-shot a bomber.

Highest DPS flak frigate is the Advent's, dealing 18 dps.  It deals 150% damage to fighters.  Vasari fighters have 85 hit points, and would take 27 damage per second per flak frigate.  Takes four hits to kill.  Seeing as flaks can't actually aim all their guns at the same target, in practice it takes more than that.  Highest damage fighters are Advent (23.4 dps per squad, accounting for double damage agianst bombers).  This means it takes a whole squad six seconds to actually kill a single bomber, again presuming they all attack the same target.

So no, there's a big chance a fighter or bomber will get out of that scrape with some scraps of health intact, ready to be healed.

Well, "others" have either cheaper carrier production (tec) or have 3 squadrons of 7 bombers in each (advent).

I'm tired about people talking about Advent having 3 squads as if it's some massive advantage.  They cost 50% more, and field 50% more squads.  Cost-wise you get the same number of squads as everyone else.  Secondly, the TEC carrier has almost exactly the same cost as the Vasari carrier, and if anything Vasari has an 8% cost discount upgrade  to all units and structures in the civvy tech tree.

 

Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: What would that change?

Heavy fallout prevents a planet from being recolonized after it is destroyed.  Making it an active, rather than passive, ability means it coul be turned off.  That should be obvious enough.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #207 July 10, 2009 8:52:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

'm perplexed why you want to see them in very heavy armour. This would mean they would be countered by bombers and only bombers.

with very heavy armor, it doesnt mean a siege frigate is only counterable by bombers, it just means bomber are the only thing that can deal 100% damage to them. Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars. I feel with heavy armor, hangars will be used more to defend against them. Since siege frigates sole purpose is bombardment, I think they should be hard to kill with conventional early game units. If given heavy armor, a single bomber squad would be able to down them relatively quickly. Their fragile hulls with light armor leave the susceptible to scouts (which i think is kinda silly) and fighters who deal 200% damage to light armor, meaning they'll die as fast as an lrf, but they cost at least twice as much, and don;t do squat to anyhting but planets. Simply put I dont think anything should get a damage bonus against siege frigates, and only a select few units should be able to penetrate its armor and deal full damage. Lrf would still deal %75 damage to them and everything else would be %50.

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Cykur
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #208 July 10, 2009 9:10:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

with very heavy armor, it doesnt mean a siege frigate is only counterable by bombers, it just means bomber are the only thing that can deal 100% damage to them. Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars. I feel with heavy armor, hangars will be used more to defend against them. Since siege frigates sole purpose is bombardment, I think they should be hard to kill with conventional early game units. If given heavy armor, a single bomber squad would be able to down them relatively quickly. Their fragile hulls with light armor leave the susceptible to scouts (which i think is kinda silly) and fighters who deal 200% damage to light armor, meaning they'll die as fast as an lrf, but they cost at least twice as much, and don;t do squat to anyhting but planets. Simply put I dont think anything should get a damage bonus against siege frigates, and only a select few units should be able to penetrate its armor and deal full damage. Lrf would still deal %75 damage to them and everything else would be %50.

You REALLY don't want to make them Very Heavy.  Siege should be fragile.  It should only be used in situations where the space around a planet has been secured.  Back in the day fleets of siege would trek around and lay waste to planets while the defending player would attempt to shoot it down.  Even if the defending player eventually destroyed most of the siege, they would have been economically crippled from loss of planets, maybe their HW, and the aggressor would just build more siege and rinse and repeat.

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #209 July 10, 2009 9:26:50 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Wtich is in part why I thing they should be heavy armor not Very Heavy. That way LFs become the counter. But before you can do that you need to fix LRF, Carriers and Flak.

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Deceiver_0
crashmatusow
Join Date 02/2009
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Reply #210 July 10, 2009 10:16:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

better just to leave the channeling on domina's, or you will be facing fleets of non-disable-able ships

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #211 July 10, 2009 10:29:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver, I would greatly appreciate if you could add my vote on the Siege Frigate dilemma. 

I would also like to cast my vote on other ships but for tonight I will concentrate on the mighty Siege Frigates.

 

 

Siege Frigates

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yes, but only by +10% (more and they risk being gamekillers)
                           
                        Change armor type (currently light)?: Yes, to Heavy (this would mean that the hard counter would be Light Frigates).

                        Decrease Resource cost?: No

                        Decrease Supply Cost?: Yes, from 14 to 10

                        Increase Bombardment damage?: Yes, by +20% (from 21 to 25 for TEC/Advent and from 25 to 30 for Vasari).

                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Yes

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: No

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Yes, to 30-ish
                                           
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yes
                      
                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Yes

 

 

I would also like to add that each races Siege Frigates should be a bit more different from one another, for example;

- TEC Krosov Siege Frigates: +30% weapon range vs. planets.

- Advent Purge Vessels: +10% movement speed.

- Vasari Karrastra Destructors: Reintegration ability.

But this might be more helpful in another threat.

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definitelynotme
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #212 July 10, 2009 10:40:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The way I see it there is realy no winning with saige frigates. If you leave them how they are than they are useless but if you buff them then people will just go Rambo with them and maul your planets.

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Dargoon999
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Reply #213 July 10, 2009 11:01:00 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting soasertsus,
reply 12
The way I see it there is realy no winning with saige frigates. If you leave them how they are than they are useless but if you buff them then people will just go Rambo with them and maul your planets.

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.

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Cykur
Join Date 03/2003
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Reply #214 July 10, 2009 11:43:58 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.

No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege.  Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

Anyhow, Siege did get a bit over nerfed, I think they could use a supply decrease.  But the nerfing happened for a good reason.

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #215 July 11, 2009 12:07:59 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Siege are tier 2 and so are hangars.

Siege are tier 1 for Advent and Vasari; they're only tier 2 for TEC, who will be getting LRMs anyways.

Hangers are immobile, siege frigates are not.  You have to hanger up each of your planets (this isn't an AI we're talking about, this is a player who knows how to scout and pick the most vulnerable targets), and that's extremely expensive.  So a team of two or three roaming siege frigates can become extremely difficult to route without spending many times their value to hanger up all your worlds.  As well, the siege frigate can be researched so early into the game that it's quite possible that you won't have enough scouts to see it coming and won't be prepared.

I have no problem with them moving over to heavy armour type.  This would make them weak to light frigates.  Staying light as they are will leave them weak to scouts.  Either way works.  On the other hand, I could agree to make them "very heavy" if they got moved tech levels up.  At level 1, they just come out too early.  If they were level 3 or 4 that would be another matter.

No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege

Honestly, if your opponent is using fleet space to build siege frigs, a unit that's useless in combat, you can afford to spend some fleet space on light frigates, a unit that is marginal in combat.  Honestly, if it gets the LF used more it's probably a good thing.

Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

When it comes to "countering" siege frigates, we're mostly talking about small forces defending your flanks.  If this is a major fleet battle, armour types be damned the siege frigates are going to get toasted by masses of LRF fire!

 

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EadTaes
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Reply #216 July 11, 2009 12:18:08 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Cykur,
reply 14

I disagree, giving Siege Frigs heavy armor will make the LF the hard counter, LF do +50% damage vs. heavy armor and they have +50% faster speed then Siege frigs. So, in theory, this alone should make LF a real threat to Siege Frigs. So if someone "goes Rambo" with Siege Frigs, all you've got to do is build LF. Even if they drop the supply points of SF from 14 to 10, you can still build 2 LF for the equivalent number of supply points. I say its a fair match.
No one is going to be happy about building a ship that is slaughtered in most fleet engagements specifically to counter siege.  Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

Anyhow, Siege did get a bit over nerfed, I think they could use a supply decrease.  But the nerfing happened for a good reason.

That's why i said before this could be done the carrier flak and LRF balance needs to be fixed. If ti fixed back to what it wa sin 1.01 I for one can say will ahve no problem with seige frigates.

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Darvin3
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Reply #217 July 11, 2009 12:21:49 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Again, I'll reiterate: if we're talking about a massive fleet battle, armour types won't mean much because three dozen LRF are going to focus fire those siege frigates, and they will not survive.  It's small harass teams that these armour types really matter for, and light frigates and scouts both are fully capable and respectable in small engagements. 

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #218 July 11, 2009 12:25:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Consider that most fleets are LRF based -- if LRF + Siege attack, no one is going to build Light Frigates specifically to deal with the Siege.

Which is why I think they should be very heavy and let bombers be the hard counter and lrfs be soft counter. With early game fleets being lrf based, and the cost of the damn things, siege spamming won't be a viable strategy, but they will be significantly tougher to kill.

Also lets not forget that in entrenchment at tier 3 one can build a starbase and prevent the loss of control to bombardment, sapping much of the siege frigates power. They may be tier 1 and 2 but with the current supply they take up, you won;t be able to build a lot of them and have a decent fleet until you tech to tier 3, at which point you can get an SB to protect your most precious planets. Got a problem with a siege spammer? build a starbase and you are fine.

It takes a good long time for a few siege frigates to take down a 1500hp planet (which one can upgrade higher, and for cheap with certain early game techs and abilities), and rushing out more early game siege leaves a player with a lot less supply (and resources) for a fleet to protect them.

There are lots of options for fixing the siege frigate, this just happens to be my favorite. Whatever happens to them though, I really don't think their armor should be light.

Keep up the great discussion

 

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Cykur
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Reply #219 July 11, 2009 2:47:04 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Which is why I think they should be very heavy and let bombers be the hard counter and lrfs be soft counter. With early game fleets being lrf based, and the cost of the damn things, siege spamming won't be a viable strategy, but they will be significantly tougher to kill.

Also lets not forget that in entrenchment at tier 3 one can build a starbase and prevent the loss of control to bombardment, sapping much of the siege frigates power. They may be tier 1 and 2 but with the current supply they take up, you won;t be able to build a lot of them and have a decent fleet until you tech to tier 3, at which point you can get an SB to protect your most precious planets. Got a problem with a siege spammer? build a starbase and you are fine.

It takes a good long time for a few siege frigates to take down a 1500hp planet (which one can upgrade higher, and for cheap with certain early game techs and abilities), and rushing out more early game siege leaves a player with a lot less supply (and resources) for a fleet to protect them.

There are lots of options for fixing the siege frigate, this just happens to be my favorite. Whatever happens to them though, I really don't think their armor should be light.

Keep up the great discussion

 

I don't think the armor type is as big a deal as their supply cost being too high.  I think they were just a bit over-nerfed.  But not much....I try to remind people why the nerf happened, but I'm really not too worried about them getting much of a fix.  Ironclad made them like this in response to all of the people crying because they couldn't kill the siege frigs fast enough to save their worlds.  It was deemed "not fun" for people to get QUICKLY knocked out of a game by someone who was not even trying to fight their fleet.

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Reply #220 July 11, 2009 3:07:19 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ironclad made them like this in response to all of the people crying because they couldn't kill the siege frigs fast enough to save their worlds.

I remember those days, but many changes have been made to the game since then, and I think it's safe to start (maybe slowly) reducing that nerf, or re-tooling siege frigates to regain their place in the fleet.

 

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N3rull
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Reply #221 July 11, 2009 3:11:03 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 6
Highest DPS flak  (...)  again presuming they all attack the same target.

So no, there's a big chance a fighter or bomber will get out of that scrape with some scraps of health intact, ready to be healed.

1] Ready to be healed means you need to manually bring them into your Skirantra's repair cloud range, which is SMALL. So you either have to micro the strikecraft into the repair cloud, which takes time and their DPS off, or you have to park the skirantra right next to what the strikecraft are attacking, which is hardly a good idea against supported starbases.
2] Your calculations are all very nice and stuff, but please launch the game and check it out. You'll see that Vasari bombers DO DIE to flaks and fighters only slightly slower than any other bombers, while being very few and rebuilding slowly.

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 6
I'm tired about people talking about Advent having 3 squads as if it's some massive advantage.  They cost 50% more, and field 50% more squads.

1] It's tier 1 research, not tier 2
2] It rebuilds strikecraft almost twice as fast
3] their squadrons are 9 fighters 7 bombers , unlike 5 & 3 for Vasari.
So they still have an advantage

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 6
Secondly, the TEC carrier has almost exactly the same cost as the Vasari carrier, and if anything Vasari has an 8% cost discount upgrade  to all units and structures in the civvy tech tree.

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.

 -------------------------------------------------------

As for the siege frigates,
I think that changing their armor to heavy is a good idea as long as LFs get buffed.

Another good idea IMO would be to
- increase siege frigs' hull, shields by 100% and their armor by 1 or 2
AND at the same time
- reduce their speed by 30% and increase their phase jump chargup time by 50%.
(the second may not be doable in stats but giving all siege frigs an always-present passive debuff would be a quick and easy solution)

That way, they will be tough enough to survive a bit out there while still not being fast enough to freely jump around enemy planets, raiding and harassing and pissin' him off.

Of course, yay to active heavy fallout

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #222 July 11, 2009 4:04:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.

N3rull I think you're off 1 tier, i think most people consider tier 0 stuff you're already given (scouts, lfs and colony frigs). Tier 1 requires 1 research lab, tier 2 requires 2 research labs etc. etc. That's the most logical way to look at it, and I believe most people consider "tiers" that way.

May help clarify your arguement, because on first glance I was like "what the heck is he talking about? TEC tradeports tier 1?"

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Reply #223 July 11, 2009 4:35:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well I used the tier order suggested by soasewiki.com . Sorry if it ain't clear.

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Reply #224 July 11, 2009 5:53:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

1] Ready to be healed means you need to manually bring them into your Skirantra's repair cloud range, which is SMALL. So you either have to micro the strikecraft into the repair cloud, which takes time and their DPS off, or you have to park the skirantra right next to what the strikecraft are attacking, which is hardly a good idea against supported starbases.

Okay, who uses fighters and doesn't micro them?  If you want an attack-move army, fighters are possibly the last unit in the game you should be building (at least in the current version).  If you don't micro your fighters they get chewed up and spit out by flak.  Moreover, they won't attack LRF unless you tell them to.  You have to order them to attack flak frigates every time they kill one because they'll go back to attacking enemy bombers and fighters otherwise.  Secondly, fighters are so fast that moving them into the area of effect of repair cloud is trivial.  I do it all the time.

2] Your calculations are all very nice and stuff, but please launch the game and check it out. You'll see that Vasari bombers DO DIE to flaks and fighters only slightly slower than any other bombers, while being very few and rebuilding slowly.

You lose some, for sure, but plenty of them do get away from flaks with health remaining.

1] It's tier 1 research, not tier 2
2] It rebuilds strikecraft almost twice as fast
3] their squadrons are 9 fighters 7 bombers , unlike 5 & 3 for Vasari.
So they still have an advantage

What's tier 1 research?  I wasn't referring to any research in that post.   Yes, the drone host rebuilds strike craft fastest and their squads are the largest, but Advent strike craft are individually weaker than what the other factions field.  Overall Advent strike craft squads deal slightly more damage and have slight more health in total, but it's not enough to make a big dent. 

 

Partly out of curiousity to do with our discussion here, I did some isolated testing of fighter vs flaks, specifically Advent vs Vasari.  My findings were that the difference in the longevity of their fighters fell well within the margin of error.  They both die to flak virtually at the same speed, and minor variations in speed and positioning had greater impact on the results than which variety of fighter and flak I was using.  The best conclusion to draw from this is that the performance you get out of strike craft has more to do with how you use them than which variety you're using.

 

Oh and the TEC doesn't have tier 1 trade port, unlike the Vasari's tier 3, to help fund its war efforts?
Having costs reduced by 8% from a two-level tier2 research is still beaten by TECs easy access to tier1 trade port and lower tier trade upgrades.

Saying "TEC has a stronger economy" and "TEC has cheaper units" are two completely different things.  The former is true in most cases, the latter is not.  This is an important distinction, especially in team games with feeding.  I'm not going to open yet another bag of worms by comparing Vasari and TEC economic strategies, but suffice to say that I view trade as overrated.

"what the heck is he talking about? TEC tradeports tier 1?"

That was my thought as well.  I use terms like "2-lab level" and "tier 2" interchangably.

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Reply #225 July 11, 2009 6:40:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

May I add the strikecraft longevity against flak is hugely effected by behavior- i.e setting strikecraft to hold position behavior allows them to live longer against flak frigates, but requires more micro to be effective attackers.

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