Throughout the history of this games' versions, Capital Ship carriers have been a bit lackluster and underappreciated by players and the developers. Their weakness(hp/shield/armor/dps) comparative to other Capital ship types and their poor, situational abilities, and lack of scaling leave them sparse on the battlefield, relatively unused, and much less of a threat than their equally priced relatives. Simple fact is, that they simply do not have the power or lifespan to make as significant an impact on battles as say a colony cap. Plus the recent nerf on strikecraft build rate saps what little power they had to near none. Carrying the hard counter to lrms, these ships should be an lrm spammers worst nightmare right?
That being said the solution is: a bit more armor, some extra squadrons and a slight change to certain abilities.(and the build penalty reduced)
Nothing I'm proposing is a huge overhaul of the carrier as some have suggested, but rather small things that can make them more useful (and threatening) on the battle field. Here's what I suggest.
ARMOR-Amongst capital ships, the Carrier class has the second worst (on average, and to colonizer caps). This would be fine if it's abilites were worth more on the battlefield. Carriers real strength( their strikecraft) is diminished by the fact that SC need time to kill things and the Carrier cap struggles to stay alive long enough for the strikecraft to be effective. A slight increase in initial armor coupled with a few additonal things will help them stay alive long enough for their squadrons to be a threat. If people feel that this would throw the balance of this ships, perhaps a slight decrease in movement speed can counteract this without negating it.
ABILITIES-Carrier most will agree that collectively, carrier caps have the least functional abilities in the game, but some tweaks could very easily make them more potent without being overpowered.
Adept Drone Anima and Heavy Fighters: People have suggested making these AOE. The problem arises of carriers spams becoming devastatingly more powerful. With a different squadron capacity for the Sova (outlined below), the heavy fighter ability gets more powerful and can be put to better use. For Drone Anima, I propose a change to the the extra fighters it gives to this [ 1/2/3 ---> 1/3/5]. At level 10 a Halcyon would have 11 squads(see below), each with 5 extra SC. Doesn't seem so bad then does it? (keep in mind that the Halcyon still has to build these extra strikecraft, which takes time)Scramble Bombers: Arguably the worst ability in the game, this ability instantly creates 3 bombers for 2 minutes. With its cool down time down to 40 seconds, you are only able to launch a maximum of 3 additional squads at its highest level at a time. As fighters can destroy these additional bombers before the abilities cooldown time even expires, its not likely you'll ever get those 3 additional squads all out at the same time. To rework this weak ability, I propose an increasing amount of squadrons [2 squads, 4 squads, 6 squads] for this to function properly you'd have to change the AM cost and cool down times to increase, and possibly decrease the time they're active as well to balance. This way bombers could quickly be dispatched to deliver a potentially deadly blow to a fleeing Cap ship. 6 bomber squads doesn't seem like that much, but its enough to have an impact.SQUADRON CAPACITY-At Lvl1 Carrier caps start with two squadrons. Which is Par or lower for regular carriers. I recommend the squad capacity should be more like this. Lvl1 Lvl3 Lvl5 Lvl7 lvl9 lvl10 Squads 3 4 5 7 9 11This solves several problems: 1.) Firepower: Early game, Cap carriers struggle to dish out damage as fast as other cap ships. Adding an extra squadron to begin with (and another at lvl3) would pose more of a threat to an enemy early game fleet. (3 bomber squads could spell trouble for any lvl1 cap, and particularly for Bombardment caps with no fighter protection until they level up a few times)2.) SC buff abilities: Strikecraft are these Caps specialty, so shouldn't their SC related abilities be tahe most useful? I generally see people using Skirantras solely for repair cloud, and halcyon solely for push, and sova for embargo if anything at all. Carrier caps in my opinion need to be better at establishing air supremacy in gravwells. Heavy Fighters is actually a great ability, the problem is the Sova can't field enough squadrons for it to be really effective at all. With more squadrons though, this ability can gain a lot of power. Imagine having 9 squadrons of bombers that deal 30% more damage and have 3 more armor, that + instant rebuild(lvl6 ability) = nothing to scoff at. Adept drone anima is the same way (but needs a slight fix).3.) Scaling: Carrier caps go from to weak in the beginning of the game, to somewhat inconsequential (or dead meat) in the late game. I rarely ever see a lvl 10 carrier cap, and it's not easy to keep one alive to reach that point, which is why I think at their highest level they should be able to field a respectable number of SC. 7 squads just isn't enough for the abilities to function well and isn't enough for the investment in this cap ship to be worth it. Since it becomes increasingly difficult to lvl up past level 6 in the late game, I feel the reward for keeping your Cap Carrier alive for it to reach those levels should be greater, I.e. +2 squads. Plus that late in the game you dealing with squadron number in the 50+ range. Having 10 or so buffed up squads in those ranks could make a much greater impact in the air.NOW ON TO THE GOOD STUFF: THE TRUTH ABOUT STRIKECRAFTI observed and tested each race's Carrier cap a good deal before I wrote this so I could understand exactly what is wrong with them and noticed some peculiar things about strike craft behavior. Following these observations and a few tests I've found that SC are at their best when they're standing still. Here's why:Attack behavior vs flak: Flak cruisers are designed to destroy swarming enemies and deal the most damage when all their guns are firing. When Strikecraft are flying around they are the most vulnerable to flak, allowing the frigates to target up to 5 at one time, and dealing ALL of their damage to your squadrons. By telling your squadrons to hold position, flak can only use a fraction of their total fire power (2 guns max). I tested my theory on flak militia and found that stationary squads live significantly longer than moving squadrons against flak. I sent 4 squads(from a Sova) against 3 flaks. I had 2 moving and 2 stationary. The stationary fighters lived nearly the entire fight between the sova and the militia, while moving ones died quickly after engaging.Attacking frigates: Stationary fighters are more efficient at killing frigates because they are not out of range of their target when their weapon cooldown expires(which happens occasionally when they're flying around), therefore dealing their damage quicker.Defending against other Strikecraft: During my trials I noticed that all the strikecraft have 2 basic attack behaviors, 1.) Circle and fire, and 2.) Linear attack passes. I tested stationary TEC fighters against moving vasari fighters, and then vice versa and here's what I discovered: Against fighters that chose the cirlce and fire method, the stationary fighters decimated them, acting like tiny little flak cannons that were able to target all their force in one direction or many. The circling fighters remained within the stationary ones' attack range and got mopped up VERY quickly. AGainst the fighters that chose a linear attack pass, the stationary fighters performed somewhat poorly, but were still able to deal a significant amount of damage (enough for a squadron of fighters set to attack local area only to clean up with ease). I also tested stationary fighters against a bomber squadron. The bombers were destroyed on their second pass. Strikecraft choose their own attack behavior, and I've found that they chose linear about 50% of the time and circling the other 50%. Those choosing to circle get obliterated by stationary fighters, leaving the other half to deal with all your remaining fighters.The drawbacks: Attacking ships requires a bit of micro management. Fighters and bombers have a very limited range, making attacking moving frigates with the hold position behavior enabled somewhat troublesome. First to get them to stand still, DO NOT issue an attack order, simply tell them to move near the frigate(s) you want them to kill, and they do the rest on their own. If the frigate decides to move (or retreat!), issue the order to attack until the frigate stops again or leaves the well. Remember though that they won't automatically attack anything NOT within their range until you tell them to or set them to a different behavior.
Using stationary fighters to defend your fleet is INCREDIBLY effective (I'd say they are almost better at it than flak frigates). The nice thing about this is once the fighters are launched in the well, they stick in tow with your carriers when they are set to hold position, turning your carriers in to super flak.Pretty Cool stuff.If you're interested in any of my proposed Carrier Cap fixes, or completely against them let me get your vote on it HERE!
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646/
definitely agree with this. One of my biggest disappointments with this game is the Cap Carriers. They just are not worth-while to build in an unmodded game. And that is an interesting point about the fighters being more effective stationary, I know that all the looping and whirling is suppose to be more "realistic" , but it makes sense to sit with your guns pointed at the target as much as possible rather than spinning around like a ballerina.
I hope the devs give Cap Carriers the buff they need.
Sova I can see calling lackluster, but Skirantra and Halcyon? Gimme a break. Halcyon is fricken awesome, one of the best caps in the game, and Skirantra is absolutely critical for any Vasari player who is using strike craft.
Yes, they're overshadowed by the Progenitor, Jerrasul, and Marza, but those caps overshadow everything, not just the carrier caps. I don't see any systematic problem with the carrier caps; the Sova is the only one that's on the weak side. Both Halcyon and Skirantra are arguably the second-best capital ships of their respective factions (Radiance and Kortul, respectively, being their primary competitors for the title)
Okay, it's very hard to take you seriously at this point. This is applicable to the Sova, but the Halcyon and Skirantra field extremely versatile and powerful abilities. The Halcyon is almost always my second capital pick as Advent, and virtually every Advent player picks it as either second or third. Skirantra is underused, but then again every Vasari capital ship is underused except for the Evacuator.
I will agree; these abilities are some of the worst in the game; not worth putting points into. Those abilities are definitely in need of a buff, but one can say the same about Marza's incendiary rounds. Doesn't mean the cap overall is in any trouble. The other two abilties for both Skirantra and Halcyon are still some of the most kick-ass in the game. Embargo, if used right, is pretty devastating as well, although the Sova really is just a one-trick pony.
I think devs should make stationary strike crafts targetable by any weapons, regardless of the weapons' "CanFireAtFighters" attribute.
I agree with you completely about Telepush and Repair cloud, great abilities. Telepush is a little more situational than repair cloud, and I feel the ship is only a threat to my SC (so i keep them away as best I can). I think these abilities are the only thing these ships have going for them. I guess my point is that I feel Carrier Caps should have stronger SC abilities, and be more oriented around them, making them more useful for what you (or at least I) would WANT them for, not just their single useful abilities. Also, you cut off my quote a little on that one, missing the word "collectively", which is to say out of all the abilities Cap ships have. Telepush, Repair cloud and Embargo are good, but the other abilities these ships have saps the ships over all usefulness.
But I definitely agree that the Sova is the one most needing adjustment.
Actually I put points into this more than radiation bomb, to increase dps and save AM for Raze planet and MB. Maybe thats just me though.
Thanks for your input Darvin, always appreciated.
I do like the idea and have posted on your other post about my yays and nays but I also think the squads need to be rethought.
Like you said, its hard to keep a Carrier Cap alive to high lvls. If you can keep that Cap alive to reach 6+ you should be rewared for it. Increasing the squads even more that you suggested would IMHO make a Carrier Caps stand out more when you start factoring in a mid to late game fleet which is full of Carrier Cruisers. Here is my suggestion:
Lvl1 Lvl2 Lvl3 Lvl4 Lvl5 Lvl6 Lvl7 Lvl8 lvl9 lvl10 Squads 3 3 4 5 6 8 11 13 16 20
It give a carrier cap, what it should of been from the get go. A key SC platform. While some of the abilities are ok and some great, abilities are not what IMHO should be the Carrier Caps strong point. Its strong point should be lots and lots of SC.
20 squads at level 10? imo, that is far too many. 9 squads at level 10 should be enough, maybe even 12, but 20? With this change, I would only bother with carriers late game and just rely on cap carriers.
More squads will make Adept Drone Anima and Heavy SC more useful. I agree that Scramble Bombers is awful. I think that it should summon more squads at higher levels, have a lower AM cost and have a shorter cooldown time.
that would be my point. There is nothing wrong with relying on a Carrier Cap for most of your SC needs.
Energy amplification and microphasing auras are extremely potent. They're not as noticable, but they're working in the background giving a very decisive advantage. Because they're both passive, this saves anti-matter for their primary abilities, so it really works out very nicely.
The Skirantra definitely revolves around this. Scramble bombers is pathetic and its ultimate is not related, but both microphasing and repair cloud are big strike craft boons. For Advent, I think it's kind of implicit that IC didn't want the Halcyon to have the strike craft boosting role. After all, it's the Rapture that got concentration aura, and the Halcyon got energy amplification. Sova is... well, a little weird, and I think with a careful buff or two could be a very nice and well balanced cap.
I see microphasing aura as the Skirantras much weaker answer to telepush, a defensive ability to help protect against strikecraft (don't SC need to be within the aura to be affected?) by giving nearby SC an edge. Same goes for repair cloud (although it has other much more useful applications than healing SC). Problem I find is the skirantra HAS to be on the front lines to use these abilities, leaving it vulnerable to focus fire. I'd like the option for the Skirantra (and others) to be effective as a carrier, not just a support ship.
Speaking of SC defense abilities, shouldn't missile batteries be able to target SC? I always thought that was kind of a no brainer.
I disagree, telepush + drone anima + anima tempest, all are SC related abilities, and energy amp affect them passively (as well as other units)
All together I think IC intended carriers to play a more offensive role (heavy fighters, embargo, Anima tempest, scramble bombers being examples of this) but as is, their offensive abilities are lacking
I agree that's a bit extreme. I don't think they should be able to field more than a starbase (i mean think about it), but I do think they should be able to rival them at higher levels.
It may be a bit extreme but honestly in a Online game how often do you see a lvl 10 Carrier Cap? Even so if its a bit on the high side, why can they carry that many? Thats their role, I mean look at the Sova, its got how many launch bays?!? So what if they can hold as many as a SB, a starbase is not just a hanger bay.
IDK, maybe yall are right. My numbers are too high but when I see a Carrier Cap, I wanna see those SC swarm out like bats out of hell! I want them to be a critical part in a fleets SC, instead of a afterthought after massing a large number of Carrier Cruisers.
I tend to agree with this. It just seems wrong that strikecraft become harder to kill after they give up their only advantage over larger craft, speed. Flak should be able to kill balled up stationary SC faster too.
I agree. However, I think that 9 or 12 squads at level 10 would be best. It is still enough to make a significant difference.
I disagree. SC are very tiny war vessels so frigate weapons won't be able to hit them. Can you imagine an assailant shooting at SC? The phase missiles would never hit anyway. Only flak (and fighters) should be able to hit SC, but flak should get 100% accuracy when shooting at stationary SC.
I agree with the OP.
One point that I would change is that instead of going from 5 to 7 squadrons and the 7 to 9 and 9 to 11, the increase in squads would go up by 1 after lvl 5. That is:
lvl 5 - 5 squads, lvl 6 - 6 squads, ..., lvl 9 - 9 squads, lvl 10 - 10 squads.
Actually, carrier caps are pretty powerful when used properly. They are also situationally useful with some strategies and against some enemy fleet compositions.
- They are strong early game when there is not much counter to strikecraft. However, they become marginalized by strikecraft counters like all carriers later in the game.
- SOVA rushing on small maps hurts a lot. Not such a useful cap otherwise.
- Halcyon has a couple awesome abilities: Energy Amplification and TK Push ... others are ok.
- Skirantra has Repair Cloud and Micro Phasing, also both awesome abilities.
I believe the biggest issue is not abilities (though Sova could get something better for its ultimate) but the amount of strikecraft. When the cruiser carriers only had one SC to thier name the Cap Carriers made sense but when they increase the CCs to two (advent three) SCs it changed the dynamic of the carriers. Now the Cap Carriers are weaker in comparison to their smaller breathern and that just is not balanced properly. Cap Carriers deserve a SC increase simple to bring them into proper proportion to the CCs and make the cruiser/capital dynamic balanced. And yes this may mean giving the Advent cap *shudder* 15 at level 10. Damn Advent
Maybe instead of so many extra SC at level 10, they could make it so that they can support SC that have lost their carrier frigate/capship?
Just a thought. Not sure if it's a good one.
Okay. here is what I think is needed.
All Carrier caps should start with 4 strike craft wings and that should top out at 10 at lvl 10 cap. More then 10 SC is to mucha nd should 10 be to much cut back to 8. But 6 isnt enought.
Their armor and HP is fine. Their weapons are fine. They could use a little more bombing power. The should bomb the same as a battleship: Kol/Radiance/Kotul. Their speed is also fine.
Their abilaties is what needs some loving.
Sova TEC:
Missile Batteries: Abilaty is prety fine as it is. Don't see much chnages that could be made.
Embargo: The saving grace of this cap, sadly only usefull on rush maps. Pass that it's prety redundant.
Heavy Fighters: Sounds go on paper but them only applies to it'S own SC so it's a total waste. Abilaty shoudl affect the SC of all carriers within range Like concentration Aura on the Rupture. Give TEC synergies to. I'm sure a sova is capable of supplyng additinal parts and armor plates for the SC of nearby friendly carriers.
Rapid Manufacturing: Rebuilds it's own SC instantly okay, tobad we only have 6 at max lvl so the impact is minimal. After that a 35% build time speed up problem is it only works for building ships and buildings. Not for rebuilding SC on friendly carriers. So this abilaty is prety pointless unlest your defendign and you need extra ships now. The build rate should affect nearby carrier so that they will build their SC 35% faster as well. Then it will be worth it.
Halcyon Carrier Advent: Honestly I find this cap like the otehr advent caps already prety damned well powerfull But I do see oen change to be made that might or might nto make it OP dependong how it plays out
Telekenetic Push: Awesome abilaty no change needed.
Adept Drone Anima: This Is already quite powerfull and with extra SC wings will only get more powerfull. So no change, it's already getting buffed.
Concentration Aura: 22% more damage for all energy weapons and its passive that very powerfull. Stays as is.
Anima Tempest: Curently it's and okay abilaty but lets make it an ultimate abilaty. Instead of making 30 individual SC the abilaty should copy all existing SC wings for this cap. So at lvl 10 that is 10 extra wings, if their fighters and you have drone anima that means 120 individual SC. So 4 time more then currently 30. How ever to prevent OPness Cool down will need to be raised from 180 to 240. And Antimater go from 150 to 250. For if a you can tele push and use anima tempest it will make for an OP situation.
Shirantra Vasari:
Repair cloud: Awesome abilaty no change needed.
Scramble bombers: Curently it's useless. So proposed chnages is that the abilaty creates 1 bombers wing per lvl of abilaty and AM change should be 80/60/40 for lvl 1 to 3. Cool down remains the same.
Microphasing Aura: Awesome power, no chnage needed.
Replicate Forces: Ok it sucks bad ass, it's easyly one of the worst lvl6 abilaties. But simply increasing the number of ships it replicates can quickly lead to OPness. So instead I propose this. Keep units replicated to 3, reduce AM cost from 125 to 100 and reduce cool down from 180 to 60.
But 2 other caps could use a buff. The Akkan and the Antorak Maurader are in desperate need of some loving to.
Ha, I was actually going to make a topic suggesting ways to improve the Sova Carrier. Frankly, I think all three Carrier Capitals need a boost in Strikecraft, starting with around three at level one, and gaining possibly a maximum of eight or so at level 10. Even having six at level six would make all three considerably better. But anyways, I personally would like to see the Sova Carrier a bit more useful, not just because it's my personal favourite Capital ship, but right not essentially just an Embargo-boat. I think these changes to it's abilities would make the Sova Carrier a bit better.
Strikecraft deployment: Well, all three Carriers would be better with an additional starting SC, and gain more at a faster rate. Each level, except for say, level 2 and 9, they gain an additional SC.
Sova Carrier's abilities are... lacking. Embargo is amazing, but all the others seem to be fairly weak. Here are my suggestions.
Missile Batteries: Their antimatter cost is far to high. 125 to deploy one, fairly weak immobile unit isn't worth the cost. Either the anitmatter cost needs to be dropped severely, or more batteries should be deployed, from 1-2-3 depending on level.
Embargo: Fine ability, keep it this way. Makes the Sova Carriers current purpose as the Embargo boat.
Heavy SC: Either increase % output, or give it a slight range (2000?) that benefits all Carriers within range of the Sova.
Rapid Manufacturing: This ability would either be better in two ways. Rapid Manufacturing could affect all Carriers within the Sova's range, but that might make SC too powerful. Or keep the building bonus for a longer amount of time. Either way, improving this ability would help greatly.
The sova and the shiratra definately need a boost.... not so sure about the halcyon (except more strike craft)
Now... the thing about strike craft being better when stationary... is just wrong... I can understand it being slightly better when they are not fending off other strike craft, or dodging flack... but durring a semi-even battle? stationary strike craft should either get penalties to health and dodging ablitity when they are not moving... or perhaps (now I know flack frigs are all ready rather uber vs strick craft)... make flack frigs do less damage... slightly nerf the carrier build penalty (to say... 75% and 40% instead of 85% and 50%) but give flacks a small splash radius that deals damage to all strike craft that are next to eachother... this... at a minimum... will mean that if that guy sticks his 20 squads of fighters/bombers at the same spot next your your starbase... 2 or 3 flack will rip them to shreads, since they will be hitting all of the strike craft and not just 1 at a time. (I mean really... FLACK... Flugabwehrkanone... its not the shots that deal damage, its the shrapnel from the explosions...) if a mass of fighters or bombers are floating in the exact same spot... its should be easy for a basic targeting computer to cause a gazzillion expoisions right in the middle of that cloud of strick craft.
Just gonna put in info about Adept drone anima.
Curently with a max of 6 SC wings and the abilaty giving 3 aditional SC per wing that means in a carrier with full fighters those extra SC are equal to 2 whole wings.
6 fighters wing9 per wing Default total SC: 543 fighters per wing: 12Grand total: 66
Increase Max wing to 10Default total: 90with 3 extras: 30Grand total: 120
Simply increasing the number of wings from 6 to 10 has increase the yeilde of Adept drone anima by 250%. To me 250% is a sifficient bost.
Also looking into Heavy strike craf it'S clear that to take it as is and make it aply to a fleet is probably gonna be to powerfull even thou TEC has the weakest fighter wings and their bomber are just barely better then advents. And we onyl need to take this:
SC dmg increase 10%/20%/30%SC armor increase 1/2/3
and turn it into this
SC dmg increase 10%/25%/20% SC armor increase 1/1.5/2
That way ti will prety much equal concentration aura witch give 30% damage, here we will ahve 20%dmg and 10% armor.
Meh.. ok... so halcyon, between its 22% -cool down and its telepush... does not need a boost.
And for the sova... I really dont think heavey strike craft should apply to all strike craft within x000 radius of the sova... it really doesnt make any sence as far as tec goes... since how can the sova magicly add armor plating and bigger guns to strike craft around it... (and take it away instantly if the strike craft venture too far away...) For advent it makes sence, due to thier ablity to use their uber powers to help repel damage and do more... and even the vasari too.. cause they got their crazy nano-bots... but for the tec? I dont think so.
It might, however... be intresting to buff "heavy strike craft" a bit... say... 20%/35%/50% and 1.5/3/4... but give the the sova's strike craft a speed nerf of 5%/10%/15% (hey, all that extra armor adds weight)
It supplies the equipement tot he carrier aroudn ti make perfect sence. The alternative to not makign AoE is to make it'S bonus ever stronger. Like 60% damage bomber and 6 armor. But thats just plain retarded you creatign super SC, If a nation could build super SC they woudl be there by default.
And Pbhead I could use that same stupid argivemnt for Rupture with concentration aura why should it do more dmg in range and not when and magicly not do dmg no more when not in range. Same thing. So don't brign me a lame excuse like that.
Also you can't start havign aditional SC from a certain lvl. Cap gain a certain amount of command point each lvl. So a carrier cap startign with 4 wings and finishing with with 10 will go liek this with a .67 comand poitn per lvl.
lvl 1 4lvl 2 4.67lvl 3 5.34lvl 4 6.01lvl 5 6.68lvl 6 7.35lvl 7 8.02lvl 8 8.69lvl 9 9.36lvl 10 10.03 So 10 wings at the end.
I'd much rather see AOE abilities. Considering the cost of a cap ship, (possible credit costs for upgrading) and the cost of research, I don't think the proposed changes would make them any better than just cruiser carriers on a cost to benefit ratio.
From my experience, those cap ships that are most useful and most used are the ones that do fleet affecting abilities. Whether it be mass heals, mass damage or mass boosts, those are the things that a cap ship work best for.
HEY...
Since you didnt catch the idea with the "it makes sence with advent and vasari" bit... let me expain...
The Rapture has a limited range because it is a buff using the mental powers of the advent peeps onboard, amplified and projected with their psitech... their minds and/or psitech amplification equipment simply cant reach the strike craft that are too far away.
and if you want to make the same argument with vasari... look at repair cloud... you only have so many nanobots that you are dispersing over an area... an area that grows with a cube function... if you try to double the cloud radius... the nanobots would have to occupy 8 times the space... the same thinned-out nano-bots would only be able to repair... 2.5 hp a second instead of 20 hp per second... not nearly as effective as a smaller, denser cloud.
watch your attitude please.
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