After JJ posted the results from his Illuminator vs Assailant test and kicked up a debate over mitigation, I decided to run my own tests to find out exactly what is happening with mitigation vs damage of each unit. Here's what I discovered:
JJs test between 1 illum and 1 assailant said more than what many accepted as truth. People said that 1 vs 1 rarely ever happens and is not representative of a real battle with multiple ships firing on sigle targets. Truth is these 1 vs 1 scenarios happen ALL THE TIME during battles with illums but in a slightly different way. I noticed that during the battle the illuminators generally chose the same primary target, but as they rotated to take aim, their sidebeams acquired different targets much more frequently. 2 sidebeams deal approximately the same damage as 1 front beam, which JJ showed in his test is not enough to raise mitigation, so while the illums primary target was mitigating the damage it was receiving, the assailants gettign struck by sidebeams had their mitigation rise slowly if at all. Most hovered around 20-30%, taking more damage from the sidebeams. I took some single fire notes to explain what I mean:
(all tests are run with no Upgrades)
Illuminator fires 1 shot from its forward array and deals ~46 damage to 15% mitigated Assailant
Illuminator fires 1 shot from a side array and deals ~21 damage to 15% mitigated Assailant
Illuminator fires 1 shot from its forward array and deals ~20 damage to a 57% mitigated Assailant
Illuminator fires 1 shot from its side array and deals ~ 9 damage to a 57% mitigated Assailant
These tests show the difference between mitigated and un-mitigated shots, and the math adds up correctly/
So with this you can say that Illuminators can deal ~88 Total per shot to 15% mitigation and ~38 damage per shot to 57% mitigation (if all 3 targets were at full mitigation).
Assailant fires 1 shot and deals ~ 70 damage to 15% mitigated Illum
Assailant fires 1 shot and deals ~ 32 damage to 57% mitigated Illum
The math adds up as Illums deal more per shot than Assailants, but here's the thing, mitigation climbs much much slower (if at all) for vessels taking hits from the sidebeams (especially since sidebeams do no focus fire as frequently as front beams, and 2 sidebeams deal approximately the same damage as 1 front beam). So in essence, the more targets a fleet of illuminators has, the more of their damage goes un-mitigated, thus increasing their damage output far beyond Assailants, which is why Illums kill them so easily. Half of illums damage is taking full mitigation while the other half is only taking ~20-30% mitigation.
In my tests I discovered 2 illuminators firing sidebeams on 1 assailant killed the assailant almost as fast as the assailant they were firing their forward beams on, due to low mitigation. Adding a third sidebeam still makes mitigation rise slower than 2 forward beams.
So in a larger battle you have your Illums rotating and focus firing on targets, while their sidebeams are acquiring separate targets and dealing close to the same amount of damage to other assailants (with low mitigation) as their forward beams are to their primary target (who of course reaches max mitigation very quickly). While assailants, no matter how many targets there are, are raising mitigation with every shot much faster than the illums.
How to fix very easily?
(EDIT)
Adjust damage division between beams. Based on mBarons tests, I recommend 33% forward, 33% for each side. This way all beams are mitigated equally, eliminating the damage bonus Illums get for having weapons that do not raise mitigation (in large groups, 1v1 would not raise mitigation).
Why not just fix mitigation and lower the 12.5dps to raise mitigation?
Mitigation effects all vessels and changing the DPS to raise mitigation would have adverse effects elsewhere in the game. Capital ships being an example. Cap ships damage is divided amongst their weapons just like illums, changing the mitigation floor would make ALL cap ships significantly weaker, as more of their damage is mitigated by enemy vessels. Flak would become a lot weaker to non-SC vessels (not that anybody really cares that much about that). The crusaders ability Ruthlessness would become weaker (as mitigation under its effects would rise quicker). Illuminators are the only vessel that is made unbalanced due to mitigation effects, so it is the only ship that should be adjusted.
If you Agree with this assessment, or completely disagree, let me get your vote..
HERE
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/356646
I've been wondering if maybe the beams shouldn't all be equal again.
Hear me out. By micro managing and "swimming" Illums the total damage tends to go to one side of their "damage triangle" or another. By moving the damage more to the forward beam you end up increasing the total damage it can dish out to either side of the Illuminator. It would increase from 12.4 to almost 15 dps to the sides.
Right now the Illuminator at stand off range will use only it's forward beam and be just a bit more powerful than all other LRF. As you pointed out though when the illum is in the middle of a fleet what happens is a group of illums will focus forward beams on one target while the side beams tenderize another target. Then they destroy the first one and then focus fire on the tenderized target. Rinse and repeat.
I'm not saying either solution is good or bad I just wanted to point out some thoughts I've had.
Edit added: By spreading the total damage evenly it would make illums 11.1 dps to one side or the other.
why do we keep making seperate threads about people complaining about illums? this has to be at least the 10th seperate thread about it this month. if these things are so overpowerd, then why haven't the devs changed them in the patches?
maybe its cuz theyre not sure why
just a thought.
Maybe they do know. Im just pointing it out really. Every other fleet HAS to diversify to get their maximum benifit. Advent don't. Illums, defense vessels and guardians is all you really need. I'm trying to solve why that is. And there it is, That's why.
It very well could be because unlike the other races' caps which are self-reliant, the Advent caps must synergize to stay alive in large battles. To balance this out, the frigates are made to act idependently...
Deceiver, this is a very good explanation. I've said the same thing before, but I never went into this kind of detail. This is why Illums destroy large groups of ships, especially with their fly-by tactics....they don't necessarily kill any 1 ship quickly, but when properly microed, they can wear down groups of ships much faster than ships relying on focus fire.
Its like WWI and mustard gas... Sure it isn't as quick as a bullet, but it hits more, and if you wait long enough, people will start dying...
Nice analogy.
That's how it works, and I can't say for sure if the Devs MEANT for it to be like this. But it makes sense to me that they wouldn't spend so much time building meshes, setting parameters, creating abilities and all the balancing just to have half of a races arsenal be comparitively unused (at least in MP).
This thread type pops up so much I think because a lot of people feel this is the most impactful imbalance in the game, but few can agree on the real imbalance they possess and what should be done about it. On my poll this is pretty evident as its one of the most contested topics.
The recent nerfing of carriers has put the Illuminator in the spot light due to the re-emergence of dominating lrm spams. With the protection from Heavy cruisers that guardians offer, the only hard counter left is rushing scouts (all of which have come under fire recently)
Personally I really think this is the core issue (ontop of several others) of illuminators themselves. I believe adjusting this will balance Advent with themselves more, rewarding diversification rather than spam, while still leaving illuminators at the top of the game when it comes to LRFs.
Well, back in vanilla, the illuminators were just like every other LRF. Nothing special, but at 1.05 I believe is when they were changed to become destroyers. I'm pretty sure it was intentional and after all, amish did find multiple ways to beat an illum spam.
I personally don't like the idea of a spam, but when I get rushed, sometimes I have to spam illums and guardians to stay alive. By the time I go on the offensive, I have a synergized fleet with just about every ship. So, I think that the dev's may have put it in as an Advent's last line of defense if rushed. It can be countered, sure, but the majority of the ships and upgrades are higher up than other classes... The last thing you want in this game is to be playing against someone with maxed out advent ships and level 6+ caps. They are a tanking race, but if they had no defense until that point, they would never win)
(Correct me if I was wrong about something above, but I don't think I was...)
Doesn't this turn into a focus fire debate. The effect of mitigation was well argued, and people generally agreed that destroying your opponents ships more quickly was well worth the lessened damage through mitigation. Now we have tha arguement in reverse. Ships are taking more damage over a period of time from fewer attacks, and people are getting upset. Granted perhaps the Illums ability to both focus with the main beam and weaken with the sides is a bit over powered, but the side beams should do more damage (overall) as they can't focus fire.
I was finally able to put together some mods to test the idea of changing around the damage each beam does. I'm not saying the damage percentages should be changed. But I think the test does show moving more damage to the front beam would make illuminators more powerful. Maybe the name should be changed from Illuminators to Eliminators.
I made a game save in Entrenchment that would jump 16 Illuminators into the middle of 16 Assailants. In all three tests all the Assailants were destroyed.
The first test was just normal with the front beam at 8.2 dps (50%) and the side beams at 4.2 dps (25%) each. 9 Illuminators survived.
The second test was front beam at 13.3 dps (80%) and the side beams at 1.7 (10%) dps each. 11 Illuminators survived.
The third test was all beams at 5.54 dps (33%) each. 5 Illuminators survived.
Interesting results mbaron
I see how that works, side beams doing more damage and increasing mitigation to actually do less damage overall.
The results of your 33% each test seems to be (at least to me) how illuminators should be powered, still stronger than the other lrfs, but not to a degree where in an equal amount yields a 65+% survival rate for the lums (which is what it is currently {this number comes from your test and JJs tests of equal number lums and assailants}).
Adjusting the beams to 33% each might put them where they belong, but I would have some concerns:
Increasing the damage of the side beams would encourage more of a strafing strategy for lums, where their counterparts cannot turn quick enough to fire one them. Then again that would require quite a bit of micro, and I would suspect someone with skill microing assailants could divide them into two groups to counteract this. That being said I think I'll put my vote to equalizing beam damage.
I wonder though, was it always 50-25-25? Or was it different in past versions and they adjusted it more recently, if so they may have had good reason to do so.
The reasons for this are as follows:
1. Well, we all know how this one played out...
2. When you give more damage to the front, you hit begin dealing higher damage. As is, if you have two illuminators, you will hit the mitigation cap but with two at this level, you have more damage left over. The side beams still do the job of softening up a target.
3. Without the power for focusing their fire, if three were to hit the same target, they would pass the 12.5 break and as such, mitigate the target.
Lifted from the Wiki page about Illuminators (and having checked the change logs it looks accurate.)
"The Illuminator had several issues fixed in Patch 1.04. Namely, it was found it had accidentally been given the "Capital Ship"-class damage. It was restored to its "Anti-Medium" attack in the patch. Its hull points were increased from 520 to 620, and its shield points were increased from 450 to 550. Its front-vector attacks were increased from 33.8 to 58.5, while its side-vector attacks were lowered from 33.8 to 30.3. Patch 1.1 changed these values again, lowering front-vector damage to 53.5 and side-vector damage to 27.25."
The cool down is 6.5 seconds so divide the damage by 6.5 to get dps (53.5/6.5 = 8.2) At one time all the beams were equal but the total dps was only 15.6. The front beam got a big boost and it probably needed it.
Common sense says that the frontal gun ought to be the most powerful, but the question is by how much...
from my point of veiw illums cant truly bebalanced with other lrms without underpowering them.Also as long as illums dont get a HUGE nerf tehn they will stay dominate cus of sidebeams. one of my favorite tactics when fighting with illums agaisnt a vasar or TEC lrms spam is to "swim" the illums though the enemys fleets ranks and hav side beams fire as they are passing where as the enmy ships cant tunr fast enough to keep up. by time teh enemy has turned his fleet i am making antoher swim run. this makes maximum use of all the illums weapons while giving the enemy a greatly reduced ability to return fire. just a sudden thought what if only side beams wher nerfed and not the frontal beam. say 5 dps for side guns?
Yep. The only real problem that that system ever encounters is a flak spam or battleship.
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