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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #176 July 9, 2009 3:38:03 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The thing about comparing Orkulus to the Ogrov is utility.  An Orkulus can attack enemy fleets and after killing the enemy starbase remains a potent defensive fortification around the planet.  An Ogrov is largely useless in a straight fleet battle and consumes copious amounts of command points.  They're better than siege frigates (not nearly as fragile, thankfully) but just as much of a dead weight to your fleet overall.

Vasari IMO is actually the best race for taking down starbases.  This is because phase missiles (both on bombers and assailants) are absolutely phenomenal, and nanos absolutely slaughter starbases. 

 

I think it would be great to hear some of the arguements and counter arguements you guys are throwing around, to help keep us from banging our heads against a wall, as I'm sure you guys have thought of things we haven't.

It would also potentially give us the chance to add poll entries to respond to some of the fixes the devs may be considering.

 

 

Once again, I reiterate that siege frigates should be added to the poll.  A unit in absolute disrepair.  Possible things to vote on (based on ideas that were discussed in an earlier thread on this subject):

  • increase health
  • increase anti-frigate damage
  • decrease resource cost
  • decrease supply cost
  • lower experience given on death
  • increase tech level
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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #177 July 9, 2009 5:31:30 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver - to the left of every post is the avatar and the name of the poster.
Above the name it says "Reply #xxx", indicating which replay it is, but this is also a link. If you click it, it will send you directly to the post it is attached to.
Click it and then copy-paste the address line into your link query window as you write your post (or right-click the "Reply #xxx" and click "copy link").

Ah, didn't even know that was a link, thanks.

An amount of Ogrovs worth 60% of the Orky's cost will annihilate it.

I disagree, Ogrovs have to sit right outside the farthest range of the Orkulus to hit it, and within seconds can come under fire.

Consider this. 15 Ogrovs versus a Transcencia or Argonev with full hp and weapons will take it down without any losses. 15 Ogrovs against an Orkulus with full hp and weapons are likely not to destroy it, even with a large supporting fleet. And even if they did destroy it, heavy losses will be taken.

And against Adjudicators its no contest.

I'm not suggesting making Ogrovs and Adjudicators super strong, and not sugesting no losses should be taken, just saying they need a little leg up in this kind of situation. Since they can't attack anything but structures, they should get a little more protection from them. Plus a decent group of fighters can still bring both types of vessel down no problem. Vasari SBs should fear these units if unsupported by SC, forcing diversification. A Vasari player may then consider upgrading the bases hangers to defend itself (which I hardly ever see anyone do)

Siege frigates are coming up next..

 

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #178 July 9, 2009 7:19:12 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

EDITED - I rewrote the post because it didn't have much order to it.

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 2
Consider this. 15 Ogrovs versus a Transcencia or Argonev with full hp and weapons will take it down without any losses
Wrong. Transcencia will meteor wipe the Ogrovs.

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 2
15 Ogrovs against an Orkulus with full hp and weapons are likely not to destroy it, even with a large supporting fleet. And even if they did destroy it, heavy losses will be taken.
edit2. so you're putting a fully defense+assault developed orkulus. Do you understand that this is 7/8 upgrades done? This is:
1] almost 20000 credits flushed into a floating brick, which
2] has only one extra slot for upgrades. If the last slot isn't enforced loyalty, then you can bomb the planet and ignore the starbase (it won't catch you). If it is enforced loyalty, than this starbase is totally useless beyond its pew pew range. It doesn't have merchant bays, colony pods, debris vortex, frontal shields, won't make a phase gate or build any strike craft (hint).

Count how many ogrovs you can send at that brick for 15k credits. Or how many bomber squadrons as advent. Seriously, if a Vasari fields such a thing, he has paid dearly for it.

You have to understand that Starbases are not all equal. They have different purposes and therefore are different in their battle capability.

Transcencia is a culture hub, powerful strikecraft factory and a deadly opponent in battle with its disorientation and meteors.
Its purpose is very Adventish - we're takin' this place over (culture + aux. gov. equivalent) and you're not kicking us out again (meteors, disorient, massive strikecraft production)

Argonev is a different thing. It is a defensive and support structure, capable of producing and supporting large fleets. It is not meant to fight, it is meant to support.
It yields a ton of trade income (Colony pods on orkies are crap compared to this).
It builds cruisers and frigates very fast
It regerates AM and hull of nearby ships
It makes you pay a high price for retreating or bypassing this floating lamp (improved jump degradation)

The Orkulus is the ONLY starbase that is meant to fight and to fight only.
It doesn't give a lot of money (Colony pods are lul)
It doesn't support the surrounding fleet at all
It doesn't affect culture
It doesn't build anything (a few strikecraft squadrons for the race which has the smallest squadrons out there)
            It         just        floats       and         kills        shit       .
The only thing that it can do above flying and killing is phase gating. A little bonus in very late game.

Seriously, when one starbase is unique in being build solely to kill stuff, it deserves to do it better than other starbases.

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 2
And against Adjudicators its no contest.
Advent don't need starfish. They have three bomber squadrons in a carrier, 7 bombers each. It does the job pretty well.

Orkies DO fear ogrovs.
But one idea is good - orkies should do a little less damage to particularly anti-structure ships. That'd be a good idea.

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Deceiver_0
top vasari
Join Date 07/2006
+15
Reply #179 July 9, 2009 8:12:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

But one idea is good - orkies should do a little less damage to particularly anti-structure ships. That'd be a good idea.

the only problem with that is as far as i know ogrovs have light armour. which is the same as lrfs. It wouldnt hurt for SBs to do less dmg to anti structure ships but their armor would have to be changed.

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Deceiver_0
Ascension
Join Date 04/2008
+4
Reply #180 July 9, 2009 8:22:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

my friend vs a fully upg Sb you get what like.... 20+ ogrovs? its not to say you would murder me or vice versa but thats a fairly even match up. Advent starfish ARE NOT YOUR SB KILLERS they are more tactical destroyers. Vasari fills the role nicely. it is COMPLETELY fair that i have to wait 2x the time to deploy in an enemy gravity well WITH upgrades just to get ONE fully functional UNUPGRADED star base. if you cant kill it by then then it isnt the star base. its you.

shoot man. @ about 50 percent of my deployment time you can plop down your own and STILL catch me before i hit 100.

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Deceiver_0
Uncrustable
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Reply #181 July 9, 2009 9:39:56 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

Buff Carrier Caps-

Increase Initial Armor?

 

Increase Squadron Capacity? Y

Make SC buffs AOE? Y

 

Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? Y

 

Re-work Scramble Bombers? Y

 

No Fix Needed-

REPULSE:

Nerf Guardians-

Increase AM cost?: Y

Decrease AOE?: N

 

Increase resource cost?: N

Cause damage to shields?: N

Buff Counters-

Increase LF ability range?: Y

No affect to Cap Ships?: N

 

Increase Distortion Field activation range?:

 

No Fix Needed-

MISSILE BARRAGE:

Nerf Missile Barrage-

Decrease total damage?: N

 

Increase AM cost? N

 

Decrease AOE? N

 

Buff Counters-

Increase range on ability interrupts?:

 

LF abilities can target caps?: N

 

Graphic Improvement?: Y

 

 

No Fix Needed-

CARRIERS:

Buff Carriers-

Decrease build penalty?: Y

 

Increase fighter HP?: Y

 

Reduce movement penalty?: Y

 

Nerf Counters-

Reduce Flak rate of fire?: N

 

No Fix Needed-

SCOUTS:

　

Nerf Scouts-

Reduce damage buff against light armor?: N

 

Increase scout supply requirement?: N

Increase resource cost?: N

 

Buff Vasari Scouts-

Increase Hp/Shields?: Y

 

Increase damage?: Y

 

No Fix Needed-

ILLUMINATORS:

Nerf Illuminators-

Increase resource cost?: Y

 

Adjust damage division between beams?: Y

 

Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Y

Increase supply requirement?: Y

 

Decrease Damage?: N

 

No Fix Needed

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My idea to fix repulse is to take away AoE and instead make each gaurdian only capable of pushing ONE ship at a time.

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Deceiver_0
Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
+115
Reply #182 July 9, 2009 11:52:06 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, that would be too bad... Perhaps making it directional so it only goes in one general direction rather than everywhere because what you suggested would not help the cap killing caused by them...

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #183 July 9, 2009 3:55:05 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

N3rull, I didn't say anything about any of the starbases having more than just Hp and Weapons. Didn't say anything about Meteors, or frontal shields, or final protocol. Just Hp and Weapons. My assesment was correct for the most part but I did foget 1 thing, against a Transcencia minimal losses to the Ogrovs will be taken, as the starbase begins with 2 squadrons, but nothing near the amount lost to an Orkulus.

Despite that, before answering please read the following.

Orkies DO fear ogrovs.
But one idea is good - orkies should do a little less damage to particularly anti-structure ships. That'd be a good idea.

THATS WHAT IM SAYING! and only what I've been saying the whole time. So why all the ranting (from both of us)? I know and love the Orkulus, and have defended its abilities on many occasions.

Maybe you thought I wanted to nerf the Orkulus damage against everything. No I dont. Only against assault ships (ogrovs and adjudicators).

Ogs and Adjs should keep their light armor so that strikecraft can kill them with ease, or maybe change it to very heavy so that bombers can do the trick (which sounds about right).

THE FOLLOWING IS NOT AN ARGUEMENT: simply a stating of facts about the balance of The Orkulus to Ogrovs and Adjudicators. I'm not stating this to make any seem more powerful, just stating facts many involved with debating these issues have not realized-

Orkulus requires lots of resources to become battle ready, but only requires an initial investment of supply (that you get back upon construction)

Ogrovs and Adjudicators require less resources to be effective, but cost a good chunk of SUPPLY. The amount of resources lost to players having to increase their Max supply to build significant amounts of these units its greater than the cost to Vasari for their Sbs (eventually). TEC and Advent get their own benefits for having to pay this price. Its Balance.

So it doesn't make any sense to use relative numbers when debating the topic of Assault weapons, as its impossible to quantify the differences of resource cost.

-I only wish that SBs did less damage to the ogrov and adjudicator.

Thats all I'll say about SBs.

-----------------------------------

My idea to fix repulse is to take away AoE and instead make each gaurdian only capable of pushing ONE ship at a time.

I can't support this idea, as it will put repulse in many peoples (f* spending the money on that ability) category, where the Overseers Jump Degradation and the Domina Subjugator now reside. The point is to make things more useful while keeping them balanced, not make them not worth the trouble. Guardians need a nerf to balance them, but what you suggest I feel strongly is an overstep, and I think most will agree. Nothing personal Derek, but ideas have to first pass my concept of 'reasonable', which I feel is already pretty loose here. I have held true to all suggestions, however, that if a number of people agree to a suggestion (even if I don't), it will be put up for a vote.

 

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #184 July 9, 2009 5:30:07 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver, you said two things that I disagreed with:

1] That orky does Assaulting very well
2] That Ogrovs and starfish are junk against Orky

and I answered

Ad 1] No, it doesn't do assaulting very well. In fact, whenever you need an assault weapon you're better off with Vulkoras spam than an Orky. Orky deploys long (even with assault delpoyment) and you have to sink a lot of resources in it AND it applies only to that one gravwell, unlike all other assault weapons. TEC and Advent (and, hell, even Vasari with Assailant spam and phase missile upgrades) can assault gravwells faster and more effectively without resorting to this orky cannon rush tactic.
Conclusion - no. Orky doesn't do assaulting very well. For majority of the time it is vulnerable, slow, money-sinking and gives a lot of room for the enemy to react. It pays off with the fact that once you take over the gravwell, you hold a firm grip of it with an already deployed starbase. But that doesn't pay off during the assault, but after it.

Ad 2] No. Ogrovs are not junk. Ogrovs ARE dangerous. Yes the starbase can shoot them, but they're still very potent.
Starfish don't help much, I agree. But Advent don't need them anyway ImO.

Oh and by the way 2], it occured to me Orkies should not, in fact, have a damage nerf against ogrovs.
If they do, ogrovs (assault cruisers) will be an easy counter to the infant Orkies deployed on assault. You won't be able to keep that 3k HP starbase alive against 5 ogrovs that a TEC can build in 3 minutes.

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
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Reply #185 July 9, 2009 5:41:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Talking about Ogrovs and Starfish against the Vasari starbase is kinda pointless.  I just got out of a starbase heavy game, and everyone was spamming bombers.  There were a few starfish floating around from early on, but otherwise there were only two things killing starbases: bombers and my evacuator (nanos can solo a starbase if it doesn't have more than one defense upgrade).  In practice, everyone deals with starbases with bombers.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #186 July 9, 2009 6:18:14 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well that is as much a valid point as it is an indicator of something going awry.
As in - assault cruisers are obsolete.

Would you mind uploading and PMing me a link to that replay?
I'm curious

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #187 July 9, 2009 6:40:43 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

You won't be able to keep that 3k HP starbase alive against 5 ogrovs that a TEC can build in 3 minutes.

You will if you can upgrade your hangars or have some carriers on hand, but thats beside the point.

Ogrovs ARE a counter to infant Orkuli. If you don't protect the little thing it'll get chewed up before it matures, but that goes both ways, Ogrovs and Adjudicators will get chewed up without protection too.

All assault cruisers/ assault bases are weak to their counters without a supporting fleet. Not arguing that point. What I am arguing is that Ogs and Adjs ONLY attack structures, thats it, they dont get the benefit of frontal shielding or debris vortex (yes im aware those are quite expensive,) or being able to attack everything (Not saying the 'Orkie' shouldnt have these abilities either). The Orkulus gets protection from starbases in the form of its upgrades. When one pays for Ogs and Adjs, you're paying for their dmg bonus against structures and their range, but against Vasari you don't get half of it (as thier range becomes quite menial) and currently, I have to throw a bunch of units in the way of an Orkulus to take advantage of the Ogrovs range against it. So why not include a little protection to help balance their effectiveness against ALL races? Simply put that if given a little more protection against starbases, all one would have to do is upgrade hangars, or have carriers to deal with them (since thats what you're supposed to do to fight those ships off anyway right?, I mean thats why they gave them light armor). Not a big deal in my book.

I don't know. The entrenchment units are SUPER difficult to compare and contrast because theyre SO different. Combining a unit and its counter into one unit is tricky business (particularly when trying to counter itself), which is probably why theres so much bad air around it, and is most of the reason I haven't put them up as a topic yet. The truth is we're probably both right and both wrong, and our opinions of each unit are just different. If I do end up putting them up as topics it will be tough because the whole balancing system of Entrenchments' units isn't based solely on numbers and figures like most of the original units are.

I do respect your fervor, and I'll take your arguements into consideration when I do start including those topics.

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
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Reply #188 July 9, 2009 8:22:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

As in - assault cruisers are obsolete.

Not at all, but their primary role isn't to destroy Vasari starbases (though they can clean up TEC and Advent ones quite nicely).  Rather, it's to clean up enemy worlds of structures.  I primarily use them to get rid of repair bays, hangers, and logistical structures quickly before the enemy fleet can react, or so my fleet can move on to the next gravity well while they clean up.  They're wonderful and functional units, essentially siege frigates for destroying structures (except unlike siege frigates they're tough enough to get the job done and survive to fight another day).

Would you mind uploading and PMing me a link to that replay?

The game was kinda anti-climatic.  The first half of the game was just me staying at 0% upkeep, feeding my allies and offensively starbasing enemy worlds.  By the time the big carrier fleets and upgraded starbases came into play the game was already a forgone conclusion.  Their Vasari player had lost all but one world to my offensive starbasing, and his last world was brought down shortly afterwards by culture.  Their Advent player was slowly losing on the far side of the solar system to our Advent player. 

There were some major battles, but no heavily upgraded starbase was ever actually destroyed.  Lots of them went down before they could get more than one or two upgrades up, but the enemy didn't have the forces to take down one of our fully established starbases and we controlled the chokes at the end so we didn't need to attack their heavily defended planets, we could cripple them by attacking the defenseless ones.  They surrendered before we had to crack their last strongholds.

The point I was trying to make is simply that when it comes down to breaking starbases, the unit of choice across the board was the bomber.  I wasn't saying it was a particularly interesting game.

 

You will if you can upgrade your hangars or have some carriers on hand, but thats beside the point.

If the Ogrovs have flak support, then they'd still prevail.  As I've said, Ogrovs are tough enough to get the job done under fire, unlike siege frigates, which is why they work.

 

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #189 July 10, 2009 4:28:57 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

edit - never mind.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #190 July 10, 2009 5:56:57 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

edit - never mind.

*wonders if n3rull realized the same thing*

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #191 July 10, 2009 6:52:09 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

*doesn't think so*

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
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Reply #192 July 10, 2009 8:29:30 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver, you did a great job gathering all that info to help improve game balance, so kudos to you.

But what about the lonely siege frigates? They never get any love. Please bring some love to the Siege frigates. I dont even remember what they look like!

Drop the supply points from 14 to 10

and/or

increase the bombing damage vs. planets.

and/or

increase the weapon range vs. planets

 

And while we're at it, why not make the TEC Heavy Fallout upgrade autocast so we could actually turn it off if need be.

No other ship in this game require more love then the "dreaded" siege frigates.

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Deceiver_0
Ascension
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Reply #193 July 10, 2009 9:29:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

siege is fine. their not combat units. the supply is negligible of course but either way. the only thing i could stand to see is a decrease in supply. but thats it. 

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
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Reply #194 July 10, 2009 1:34:39 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

And while we're at it, why not make the TEC Heavy Fallout upgrade autocast so we could actually turn it off if need be.

There's a good one!  Totally in agreement!

the supply is negligible of course but either way

14 supply is NEGLIGIBLE?  Let's not forget their cost!  These things take a huge chunk out of your fighting force.

I also don't think you appreciate just how weak they are in combat.  I had starbased an enemy world (Vasari) and three assailants come along.  They killed both my siege frigates before my starbase could kill them.  Three friggen assailants, do you get how damn fragile these things are?  If a couple of fighter squadrons enter the well they're dead.  These things are SO DAMN FRAGILE, and at their cost that's inexcusable.  They cost about as much as an Ogrov, they fulfill a very similar role to the Ogrov, they should be as tough as an Ogrov.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #195 July 10, 2009 3:32:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

While we're at starbases, I'd suggest Orky gets a slight boost versus structures.

Yeah yeah, I know what you're gonna say. You want to buff that OP mofo octopus?? 
But seriously now, I've had an orky pounding on a Transcencia. Transcencia was 3 Def 2 assault and so was my orky, but the Advent SB was supported by tactical structures. After 10 minutes of my Orky pounding on it, the Transcencia had lost... 1500 shields and 260 HP. Needless to say I had 10 overseers constantly patching up my orky.

If we thow in the fact that
- Vasari bombers are sux*,
- Vasari don't have any dedicated anti-structure cruiser**
- that you can only have one Orky in a gravwell that will never leave it like cruisers
I strongly believe Orky should get increasing damage bonuses against structures as it is upgraded.
For example
Assault upgrade 1 - as it is
Assault upgrade 2 - additional + 20% damage against structures
Assault upgrade 3 - another +20% damage against structures

If some people think it unbalanced for the Orky to shoot at assault cruisers and thus negate their effectiveness in their eyes, I think that a fully assault upgraded Orkulus deserves to have a greater anti-structure potential than two Starfish in a hard shell.

* - there are 3 per squadron, 2 squadrons per carrier. All fighters in this game are more numerous and advent really fouls up Vasari bombers with 3 squads/carrier , 9 fighters/squadron and massively greater reconstruction rate. Being a bit tougher doesn't help when you're outnumbered 4 to 1.
** - which doesn't mean that I want one.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #196 July 10, 2009 5:23:48 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Thanks for the Karma Dargoon

Siege Frigates ARE UP!

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Deceiver_0
definitelynotme
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Reply #197 July 10, 2009 5:34:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Siege Frigates

nay
yay(very heavy)
yay
YAY(down to ~6)
nay
yay
nay
yay
yay
nay

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Deceiver_0
Volt_Cruelerz
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Reply #198 July 10, 2009 6:09:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

 

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Yay
                           
                        Change armor type (currently light)?: Yay (heavy/very heavy)

                        Decrease Resource cost?: Nay

                        Decrease Supply Cost?: Nay

                        Increase Bombardment damage?: Yay

                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Yay

                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: Nay

                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Nay
                                           
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?: Yay
                       
                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Nay

 

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
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Reply #199 July 10, 2009 6:21:16 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

Siege Frigs:

  • increase shields/hp/armour:  yay (don't care which)
  • change armour type: nay
  • decrease resource cost:  yay
  • decrease command cost:  yay
  • increase bombard damage:  nay
  • make TEC heavy fallout active: yay
  • reduce heavy vallout duration: yay
  • reduce experience value: yay (~40)
  • apply fixes to militia: yay (why wouldn't this apply?)
  • apply fixes to sieging pirates: yay

 

@deceiver & soasertus

I'm perplexed why you want to see them in very heavy armour.  This would mean they would be countered by bombers and only bombers.  I think it's important that they be countered by either the scout or the light frigate.  We have to remember that siege frigates are a tier 1 unit for most factions; it's trivial to make them the first unit you unlock and have a couple of them en-route to the enemy homeworld before the opponent has had a chance to scout you.  This is why I think it's important that either scouts or light frigates form a counter to siege frigates; these two units can easily outrun a siege frigate and provided they have the right damage for its armour type they will bring it down if it doesn't have backup.  I think that's important to keeping them balanced.

@n3rull

Vasari bombers are sux*

Vasari bombers are IMO the strongest in the game.  You're greatly undervaluing the fact that they deal both higher damage and have higher health than other bombers.  As well, Vasari is the only faction in the game that has an ability to heal strike craft.  This complements quite well with having the toughest strike craft to begin.  You also have an extra armour upgrade level that the other factions don't that applies to strike craft.  The real reason Vasari have the strongest bombers, however, is phase missiles.  A 30% chance to pierce maxed out mitigation is approximately equivalent to a 45% damage buff.  Combined with the 20% damage buff they get at the end of their upgrade line, this is about a 75% damage bonus from ugprades overall.  This leaves the paltry 30% upgrades that the other factions get in the dust.

Vasari bombers are the worst for attacking targets that have no shields (regular structures, in other words), because there are no shields to bypass and therefor phase missiles are no advantage.  They still do the job just fine, though.

Vasari don't have any dedicated anti-structure cruiser

I don't think they need one.  I rarely use the Ogrov and Starfish anyways, and when I do it's usually for clean-up duty.  If you gave the Orkulus an upgrade to make it deal more damage to structures, I'd personally never pay for it.  I'd rather just take the slow-but-steady route and save my money (and upgrade slots) for more important things.

 

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Deceiver_0
definitelynotme
Join Date 07/2008
+9
Reply #200 July 10, 2009 6:36:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm perplexed why you want to see them in very heavy armour. This would mean they would be countered by bombers and only bombers. I think it's important that they be countered by either the scout or the light frigate. We have to remember that siege frigates are a tier 1 unit for most factions; it's trivial to make them the first unit you unlock and have a couple of them en-route to the enemy homeworld before the opponent has had a chance to scout you. This is why I think it's important that either scouts or light frigates form a counter to siege frigates; these two units can easily outrun a siege frigate and provided they have the right damage for its armour type they will bring it down if it doesn't have backup. I think that's important to keeping them balanced.

True, I didnt think of that. That could cause the new tactic to be siege sppam instead of Illums.

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