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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #476 August 15, 2009 10:47:19 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

oh, no no no no no no. That's not what I meant, you misunderstood me. Not dividing damage, but reducing the max # of targets an Adjudicator can target at one time.

EDIT: I misunderstood myself. What I initially meant was to decrease it's damage; however now that I think about it it would be a better idea to have the # of structures an Adjudicator can target reduced; perhaps have a research that can increase it, or an ability that allows it greater target # at the expense of shielding/engines (mobility), whatever else you can think of.

Ah ok. Reducing the number of firing banks, and therefore increasing the damage that divided amongst them may help, but I think they need a little boost in their shielding as well since there is no way to heal them (at least until perserverence comes out.. if they fix it..) and since they are high priority targets. Either that or make em a little cheaper to build.

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JuleTron
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Reply #477 August 16, 2009 1:51:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I've raised this issue on other threads, but it belongs here so I'll mention it.

Ogrovs and starfish have the wrong armour type. Currently, bombers and assualt cruisers have the same role and the same counter (fighters) which is stupid. One will be obselete.

Assualt cruisers should have heavy (or maybe medium) armour so that they can attack enemy structures while fighters still have a presence. They would destroy the hangars and then you can send in the bombers to help destroy everything else.

As for other changes, more hull points and lower cost sounds good. I remember that in an early Entrenchment patch, starfish were briefly OP and could simply bulldoze through enemy structures. Some of their old strength should return. Fewer targets for starfish? not sure.

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Whiskey144
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Reply #478 August 16, 2009 3:47:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

no, starfish shouldn't get more hull, it's already got nearly as much as the Destra. More shields, DEFINITELY, more hull, no.

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N3rull
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Reply #479 August 16, 2009 4:16:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Armor shift on assault cruisers, yes. I say medium (hey, LFs need all the help they can get lol).

Once this is done, however, I believe stafish will be very useful.
When you surprise attack an enemy world, there's no faster way to wipe all his tactical and logistic structures than to employ a starfish. Yes, they go down fast as they are, but with Shield regen or guardians' support (and changed armor), two of those bastards will actually be quite a reliable anti-structure force.

I don't think Adjudicators should have reduced number of targets. They are MEANT to be different from ogrovs.
Advent already have the best LRFs and strikecraft out there.

If anything, Adjudicators (and ogrovs maybe?) could have the same thing I suggested for Siege frigates - increase their hull/shields by a lot (80-100%) but permanently reduce their speed by 30% or so. That way they will become costly, slow but tough structure wipers. With proper support they would withstand even starbase fire.

Along with those changes I maintain my statement that Orkulus needs an anti-structure boost. A FULLY (3/3) offensively upgraded orkulus does less damage to structures than two ogrovs.
This is not even enough to kill a 3-def starbase with even slightest repair support, because it regenerates faster than orky deals damage to it (while going down much faster).
Sorry but the disintegrators are a joke. At 1/3 offensive they may be worth the price, but the orky doesn't get much better than this even with 3/3 offensive, which sucks.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #480 August 16, 2009 4:19:59 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm a little suprised that no one's mentioned the whole it takes up 18 ship slots so is therefore useless. Which would you rather have. A starfish, or 3 squads of bombers that can become fighters if you need them to?

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Warlord Mike
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Reply #481 August 16, 2009 6:00:38 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

18 slots IS a bit high, now that you mention it, RA.

Maybe drop it down to say, 15 or so?

Other than that, I think I figured out how best to do the "focus firing" I talked about earlier:

  • 5 structures in range: all cannons target one structure each
  • 4 structures: 3 have their own targets, 2 focus on the fourth
  • 3 structures: 2 focus on one target, 2 on another, one on the third target.
  • 2 structures: 3 focus on one target, 2 focus on another
  • 1 structure: All 5 target the enemy structure

My reasoning is if the starfish has five cannon points, then it ought to put 'em to good use at all times.

I suppose in this stance, though, maybe the supply cost shouldn't be reduced.

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EadTaes
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Reply #482 August 16, 2009 7:14:16 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

For the slot sont he startfish and Orgov I am droping them to 10. Just liek seiges they ahve been over nerfed.

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Reply #483 August 16, 2009 9:59:12 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Along with those changes I maintain my statement that Orkulus needs an anti-structure boost. A FULLY (3/3) offensively upgraded orkulus does less damage to structures than two ogrovs.

Orkuli do damage more like starfish than Ogrovs anyway, and the reason they do less is because theyre wepoans firing on several different targets (or not firing at all), while ogrovs deal all their structure busting punch to 1 target at a time (and since repair bays dont stack, structures fall quickly from the overwhelming force). With that you get the fact that its quite difficult to bust up a ball of structures with lots of repair bays with both the Orkulus and the Adjudicator. It sucks that you have to get 5 adjudicators to be able to to the kind of damage 1 ogrov does to 1 structure. IT also sucks that you have to get pretty close to have all 5 banks firing at a tight cluster of structures. Close enough to have a few lrfs waiting to shred your poorly shielded, really expensive units.

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JuleTron
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Reply #484 August 17, 2009 3:33:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm a little suprised that no one's mentioned the whole it takes up 18 ship slots so is therefore useless. Which would you rather have. A starfish, or 3 squads of bombers that can become fighters if you need them to?

Back when Starfish were OP (this wasn't very long as a new patch was released quickly) it was the bombers that were useless. Advent only ever bothered with starfish as they were uber. 18 slots isn't terrible, but doesn't help.

Orkuli do damage more like starfish than Ogrovs anyway, and the reason they do less is because theyre wepoans firing on several different targets (or not firing at all), while ogrovs deal all their structure busting punch to 1 target at a time

This is no excuse. Usually, there is only one Orky in a grav-well at a time so it needs to be able to kill stuff. It is also restricted to that grav-well.

It sucks that you have to get 5 adjudicators to be able to to the kind of damage 1 ogrov does to 1 structure.

With decent range, this won't matter. Starfish get more targets. They are meant to be unique.

Armor shift on assault cruisers, yes

N3Rull agrees. Who else? who else has feedback on my change to assualt cruisers?

 

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Reply #485 August 17, 2009 6:20:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

This is no excuse

Never said it was an excuse, I feel both lack the punch Ogrovs have. I'm for an armor shift in Adjudicators so longs as their damage remains the same and their supply cost goes down a bit. They need to live longer and be easier to replace if it continues to take 15 minutes for a small group of them to take on a tight cluster of repair bayed structures.

So-

We've got some armor change suggestions, making them harder for Strikecraft to destroy

Reduction in supply cost

Reduction of firing banks

Increase in Shielding

Did I miss any?

 

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JuleTron
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Reply #486 August 17, 2009 7:55:14 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Never said it was an excuse

K, it just came across like that a bit. Glad to know that someone else has an opinion on my suggestion.

As for your list of changes, I've heard that starfish need a slightly longer ranged attack so this could belong there (I'm not sure if this is needed though). Other then that, your list looks complete.

 

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Whiskey144
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Reply #487 August 17, 2009 11:02:54 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Starfish-

Increase shielding- definitely

reduction in supply cost- yes, I think 14 is good

reduction in firing banks- maybe by one, so it can only target 4 structures instead of 5

armor change- to medium, or heavy.

Ogrov-

Same armor change as the Starfish; toughen it's hull up a little.

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Kitkun
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Reply #488 August 17, 2009 12:09:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums 
Mines
      Buff Mines
                        Increase damage? N
                        Increase damage radius? N
                        Increase activation radius? N
                        Increase mines per deployment? N
                        Increase deployment spread? N
                        Decrease cost? Y
                        Reduce build time for Proximity Mines(TEC)? Y
                        Increase duration of Gravity Mines(Vasari)? Y
                        Fix homming mines AI to return to original deployment location(Advent)? Y
                        Make Gravity Mines an upgrade to existing mines? Y
Siege Frigates
      Buff Siege Frigates
                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?: Y
                        Change armor type (currently light)?: N
                        Decrease Resource cost?: N
                        Decrease Supply Cost?: Y
                        Increase Bombardment damage?: N
                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?: Y
                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time (currently 6 minutes)?: N
                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?: Y
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?: Y
                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?: Y
SEREVUN OVERSEER
      Buff Serevun Overseers-
                         Increase firing arc of abilities?: Y
                         Increase turn rate?: Y
                         Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?: N
                         Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?: Y
                         Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?: Y
                         Allow 'Jump DEgradation' to disable passive regeneration?: N
SKAROVAS ENFORCER
           Buff Skarovas Enforcers-
                         Decrease Resource Cost?: N
                         Decrease Supply Cost?: N
                         Increase hp/shields/armor?: Y
                         Increase Damage?: Y
                         Cheaper damage upgrades?: N (Better, Yes. Cheaper, No.)
                         Higher reintegration rate?: Y
DOMINA SUBJUGATORS
           Buff Domina Subjugators-
                         Increase firing arc of abilities?: Y
                         Increase turn rate?: Y
                         Make abilities AOE?: N
                         Remove channeling from abilities?: Y
                         Fix Targeting AI (on all abilities for all races) to prevent wasteful use?: Y
CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS
           Buff Carrier Caps-
                        Increase Initial Armor? Y
                        Increase Squadron Capacity? Y
                        Make SC buffs AOE? N
                        Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? N (If squad capacity doesn't go up, then Yes.)
                        Re-work Scramble Bombers? Y
LIGHT FRIGATES
           Buff Light Frigates-
                        Increase Damage?: N
                        Increase Damage bonus to armor type?: Y
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: N
                        Increase ability range?: Y
                        Increase firing arc?: N
                        Increase turn speed?: N
            Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: Y
            Nerf Counters-
                          Decrease LRF Damage?: N
                          Decrease LRF damage bouns to medium armor?: N
                          Increase resource cost?: N
REPULSE:
            Nerf Guardians-
                        Increase AM cost?: Y
                        Increase cooldown rate?: Y
                        Decrease AOE?: N
                        Increase resource cost?: N
                        Cause damage to shields?: N
             Buff Counters-
                        Increase LF ability range?: Y
                        No affect to Cap Ships?: Y
                        Increase Distortion Field activation range?: Y
MISSILE BARRAGE:
            Nerf Missile Barrage- (Hard target cap @ 42)
                        Decrease total damage?: N
                        Increase AM cost? N
                        Decrease AOE? N
            Buff Counters-
                        Increase range on ability interrupts?: N
                        LF abilities can target caps?: N
            Graphic Improvement?: Y
CARRIERS:
            Buff Carriers-
                        Decrease build penalty?: Y
                        Increase fighter HP?: N
                        Reduce movement penalty?: N
            Nerf Counters-
                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?: N
SCOUTS:
            Nerf Scouts-
                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?: N
                        Increase scout supply requirement?: N
                        Increase resource cost?: N
            Buff Vasari Scouts-
                        Increase Hp/Shields?: Y
                        Increase damage?: Y  
ILLUMINATORS:
            Nerf Illuminators-
                        Increase resource cost?: N
                        Adjust damage division between beams?: N
                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Y
                        Increase supply requirement?: Y
                        Decrease Damage?: N
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Reply #489 August 17, 2009 3:01:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ah kitkun welcome to the discussion

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MindsEye
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Reply #490 August 18, 2009 8:38:25 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My opinion on the orky-It kills EVERYTHING.Caps,sb,ships,structures,and even anti structure units.It shouldnt be as efficient at killing structures as a dedicated unit.It is geared more to killing ships it cant be uber at killing everything.What needs to be dne is a build increase for early game (add 10 sec to build) and an increase to aussalt spec(-10 sec over stock).This way it isnt op at begining of game and easier to build for later game.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #491 August 18, 2009 8:41:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'd rather it just stay put and give the Vasari an assault cruiser, of course, that'd ruin the abilities it has, but it's just a dream of mine.

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N3rull
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Reply #492 August 18, 2009 8:52:42 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

My opinion on the orky-It kills EVERYTHING
lol. Sure it kills, for heaven's sake. If you threw 20k credits on a fleet that cannot leave the gravity well it is stationed in, you would damn expect it to fight like all hell let loose when it has a chance.

But for the price of having no dedicated anti-structure ship, Orky should be much more effective.

And it doesn't kill SBs. You've been drinking. It only kills SBs if you invest more into its direct combat systems than the enemy did - and even then it will be a somewhat even fight that will last for 20 minutes.

Bleh.

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King_of_kings
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Reply #493 August 18, 2009 2:59:01 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Major Stress,
reply 3
Yet another useless "what i want" thread... Sorry to come off like that, but this is exactly what it is.

Nobody ever stops to think about this..

What about the vision the developer's had for thier own game?

Originally sins was supposed to be all open mapped. No phase lanes. Orbiting planets, moons etc. But then came the multiplayer aspect which IMO is what killed those aspirations. So in came the phase lanes. Single objects per gravity well. chokepoints, and alot of buffing, and nerfing because no one seems to like how it plays in multiplayer despite the developers bests efforts to please you guys. Instead of staying true to thier own vision of what sins "should" be. I dont think sins is anything close to what the developers really wanted. Dont get me wrong it is a great game in its present state. I just think it is not a "complete" game knowing what was intended for the game, and didnt happen...Thanks to the multiplayer aspect, and sorry to say topics like this one where every kid bitching about "what they want" in the game. Do not help. If the developers granted every "wish", and the MP fans had thier way we would have superweapons that would kill everything in a grav well with one shot. Uberships, and ridiculously powered weapons, with no defenses to counter them. Look at all of the post similar to this one and you will see my point. I am just sorry it was this post i picked on. There are many like this i could have targeted. It is nothing personal against the OP.

I thought the game was balanced just fine before entrenchment came out. and early versions of entrenchment seemed to be ok to me. Yet there always seems to be "someone" who will not be happy no matter what the dev's do. They are indeed bending over backwards to make all the unnecessary changes that are being demanded by the fans. Deviating from thier own vision of what the original game should have been like to satisfy you guys.

Something new for the relentless MP crowd to think about.

couldnt agree more

 

but lets not forget this is a business for the developers and most people like the aliens because mostly all you have to do is push out a few assailants or illuminators and a colonizing cap and you can win against most people.  However a good TEC commander will build a fleet a complete fleet. My point is that if the people playing your games arent rdy for the future of gaming, the develoopers only thing to do is dumb the game down for them. For they must sell the game in order to do more with the revenue they make and hopefully create more of their vision in the next game. But yes its sad. I believe the developers real goal was to have an enemy force destroying humanity and expected alot more people to play the "disadvantaged"(i say this because its perception not fact) TEC. but to use your mind is hard for some so when people who play TEC start winning they go cry and say fix it we want to win waaaah ::

AND YET THESE R YOUR FANS... so what now business overcomes vision. youve got guys who r eating steak now instead of canned food and never want to go back so we fix it so they can win.  In the end this is the only option.

However i will say the developers have done an excellent job keeping their vision because the TEC can still win. you have to be more disciplined but you can win easily still. Developers i would like to see the SOVA get its seventh fighter that you promised in the instruction  booklet though adding another at level 4,5, or 6 would be really helpful. thnx

_|~Sire

last note: if you want to see just how much the games been dumbed down just look at quickstart!

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Raging Amish
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Reply #494 August 18, 2009 3:07:54 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

last note: if you want to see just how much the games been dumbed down just look at quickstart!

I second that!

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Kitkun
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Reply #495 August 18, 2009 3:20:49 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I gotta agree with Stress as well. Still, might as well work with what we got now.

 

 

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EadTaes
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Reply #496 August 18, 2009 6:32:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Indeed prior to entrnehcment and early entrenchemnt were the nice days. That is when 1.01 entrenchement was out and I think vanila sins was 1.15. That balance was a result of a long 3 month balance beta with yeilded incredable results. The game was very well balanced and all races had an equal chance of victory. It was mostly up to the commanders and the map layout to decide the victor.

But some people kept whining about carriers and it was a minoraty. I only remember a few threads about carriers being oped but even then a carrier spamer was EASYLY defeated. Was easier to defeat a carrier spammer then to spam carriers your self. The game was workign as it should everythign had it's counter and all ships had their purpace. I was seeing more and more fleets cobinign all ship types from all races. The onyl down side was that caps were still as always dieing to fast.

Then came 1.02 entrnehcment and the game balance went from nearly perfect to 100% broken disfunctional. Thsi si when thread such as this one started poping up in a MAJOR way because now it's the majoraty that's upset. As a reponce tot hat Ironclad sent out 1.03 witch did absolutely nothing to help the problem for they toke 1 tiny baby step int he right direction but then toke 2 huge adult steeps back int he wrong direction. Result no change the game is still broken behond belif and their is only 1 viable race to play currently Advent. Witch was the main problem in 1.04 vanila sins the problem that cause Ironclad to ahve a 3 month long balance beta the yeilded very interesting results and had given this game the BEST balance it HAD EVER HAD. But they destroyed all of it now and we are back to 1.04 witch is belive by populer opinion The worst the game balance had ever been and is once more.

 

3 month of balance beta to just destroy it and go back to square 1. That is what 1.02 and 1.03 have accompliched.

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N3rull
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Reply #497 August 22, 2009 9:12:30 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Request - let's discuss the subverter.

Distortion field - overnerfed. Still powerful, but completely one-shot. Subverters never survive doing this, cause after using this ability this very slow, weak and clumsy ship ends up with the majority of the enemy's guns facing its sorry face. They're just asking to be killed. I suggest the subverter jumps back to where he cast the Distortion Field after the channeling ends. That way, it may live to cast it someday again. It sure as hell won't be able to spam it, with its current AM cost and cooldown. The duration of the stun or the AM cost could even be nerfed some more to compensate, if only the subverter had any chance of surviving the casting of it. Right now, it's foolish to hope that this clumsy and squishy cruiser manages to turn 180 degrees and escape from the middle of the enemy fleet.

Shield Disruption - definately either this works on SBs or Cielos should gtfo from SBs as well. Could also use a slight buff to range.

Deceiver - mind adding it up thar?

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Reply #498 August 22, 2009 11:12:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums
Distortion field - overnerfed. Still powerful, but completely one-shot. Subverters never survive doing this, cause after using this ability this very slow, weak and clumsy ship ends up with the majority of the enemy's guns facing its sorry face. They're just asking to be killed. I suggest the subverter jumps back to where he cast the Distortion Field after the channeling ends. That way, it may live to cast it someday again. It sure as hell won't be able to spam it, with its current AM cost and cooldown. The duration of the stun or the AM cost could even be nerfed some more to compensate, if only the subverter had any chance of surviving the casting of it. Right now, it's foolish to hope that this clumsy and squishy cruiser manages to turn 180 degrees and escape from the middle of the enemy fleet.

Yeah, I was calling it an overnerf from the moment they announced it. It just needs a slight reduction in the AM / Duration nerfage so Vasari actually has a viable way to deal with the TEC / Advent hordes.

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Reply #499 August 23, 2009 4:26:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah, I was calling it an overnerf from the moment they announced it. It just needs a slight reduction in the AM / Duration nerfage so Vasari actually has a viable way to deal with the TEC / Advent hordes
Not really. It's not the AM or the duration that's a problem.
Yeah, when the stun was 30 seconds for 150 AM (on a ship with a 350 max AM) you could easily chain this crap with 3 subverters for 3 minutes straight (1->2->3->1->2->3), never letting the enemy fart (and thus damage the subverters.
That WAS a little OP, sorry to say.

I do not mind the timer/am cost being where it's at. I think this part of the ability is decently balanced as it is.

A 1200-credit worth group of three cruisers should not be able to keep a 40000 credit fleet shut down for three minutes. That's friggin' imba (and I'm a dedicated Vasari player saying it).

I just don't like the fact that this thing just jumps, stuns and dies. Like that.

I fear that this is how the devs wanted it, judging by the fact that this ship costs about the price of an Assailant (50 resources of difference). Still, the Cielo is even cheaper and doesn't go all kamakazey with its abilities.

Damn.

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Reply #500 August 23, 2009 7:45:41 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I suggest the subverter jumps back to where he cast the Distortion Field after the channeling ends.

Interesting idea. A simpler solution may be to give the Subverter more hull/shield points. Buffing Overseers may remove the high destruction rate of Subverters anyway.

Also, with the Vulkoras the issue has been raised that Phase Misile Swarm damages random targets that you may not target with the rest of your fleet so that the ships regen health and the damage is wasted.

This could be fixed by making PMS prioritises enemy ships that have already been damaged. Needless to say, PMS should also have a chance to bypass shields.

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