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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
Proletari
Join Date 12/2008
+3
Reply #26 June 20, 2009 5:55:40 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

LRF really need their damages somehow nerfed....havent you noticed that 90% of your capitals ships were lost to LRF fire?

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TheRezonator
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Reply #27 June 21, 2009 12:32:44 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Quoting Major Stress,
reply 3

What about the vision the developer's had for thier own game?

Originally sins was supposed to be all open mapped. No phase lanes. Orbiting planets, moons etc. But then came the multiplayer aspect which IMO is what killed those aspirations.

I thought the game was balanced just fine before entrenchment came out. and early versions of entrenchment seemed to be ok to me. Yet there always seems to be "someone" who will not be happy no matter what the dev's do. They are indeed bending over backwards to make all the unnecessary changes that are being demanded by the fans. Deviating from thier own vision of what the original game should have been like to satisfy you guys.

Something new for the relentless MP crowd to think about.

first off, woot! i can finally post here, it was broken for me since it was created so sorry if i repeat whats already been said

so, i have to agree somewhat with Major Stress and other people who think similarly, alot of this balance stuff is really only an issue to MP. its the same thing for alot of games, including Halo 3 and Command and Conquer (Microsoft and EA respectively told the developers to concentrate on game balance and MP rather than the SP aspect.

I never knew that IC intended for Sins to be like that, though it sounds fun. However, on the other hand, i realise that first concepts and dreams of how a game could be usually will have to be changed simply to facilitate gameplay. for instance, i like to daydream about a style of powered walker armor, i wont bore you with the details, but basically i daydream that i jump in to movies ad stuff with that armor and hand out all sorts of death and destruction. problem with that is it makes for a horrible game/movie, because there is no complication. just like C&C3:Tiberium Wars, i would just spam GDI Mammoths and roll over the enemy. even hard AI and friends i played against couldnt counter it. its awesome and fantasmagorical, but makes for bad sport if there is no 'twist' or 'complication' as they say in literature etc.

So, on one hand, yes, it sucks when your original dreams have to be changed and altered or even dropped for whatever reason, but on the other hand, if you want a 'good' game, or at least one that works, if not one thats interesting, some things have to be changed to make things difficult, but survivable and surpassable.

to sort of sum up, yeah, i think alot of the omg this has been nerfed or this needs to be changed or this is OP comes from, the MP community, and then its only when someone gets outplayed. honestly, i dont think anyone fired a marza missile barrage or pulled off a successful LRF spam and thought "man, that was too easy!" so yes, maybe something is broken, but maybe you just got outplayed and cant handle it. really, i wonder if you play a game of football and complain when you get beat because the other team passed the ball better than you. still, in all fairness, if it is broken, then the most important and relevant feedback will come from the people who it affects, the MP community.

 

 

i dont know how IC checks the communities opinion on balance, but it sounds to me like there was a good triangle between carriers, LF and LRF, then Flak was brought into it, which did mess something up. as it was, LRF beat LF, LF beat Carriers, and Carriers beat LRF, except now flak come in and beats SC, while not beating LRF. so LRF is now basically uncountered because there is another ship that covers its ass. thats my opinion on why the balance triangle is broken. i dont know hot to fix it... other than maybe dropping flak frigs from the game entirely, changing fighters to an exclusively (or at least, a much more effective) anti SC role, and giving bombers the damage buff vs LRF the fighters presently have. alternatively, giving LF's a damage boost vs flak frigs as well as LRF might counter it, but now you need twice as many LF to deal with twice as many ships.

its difficult to fix, the more i think about it the more i have to admit maybe the current style is fundamentally flawed. i mean, we have light, but nonetheless frontline grunt ships, LFs present in the beginning of the game. then, you tech up and now have these even lighter, but much more damaging and longer ranged LRF's. they counter LF's very well, as would be expected from a more advanced ship. at the same time you can also research flak frigates, which are pretty useless vs the 3-4 kinds of ships currently available. then you tech up again, and you get Carriers, these ships themselves do nothing, but the SC they carry are very effective vs LRF. (and, if im not mistaken, the bombers they also carry are effective vs all other ships currently available). so, now we have a good triangle, except the ranges just keep increasing. its like i hit you with a gun, then you hit me with a cannon shell, then i hit you with artillery and you hit me with a missile etc etc etc. but you know how to take out something with alot of range? you get up close. currently thats how it works, LF are good vs Carriers, except by the time they get close enough to fire they've been all but destroyed. AND EVEN THEN, the carriers and LRF can still engage and destroy the LF even when they are practically sitting in each others laps.

im hesitant to say this but i think it may just be possible that the system is fundamentally flawed, and its not how much you change and optimise the numbers. idn, either make Carriers and LRFs effective at taking out other carriers and LRF (respectively), so that the range isnt so much of an issue, or else maybe bringing the HC way down the tech tree, and replace where the HC is currently with a larger, more powerful 'destroyer' type. that way, we can counter the increasing range of ships early game with a beast that can survive to get up close then take out the carriers etc, and then later game we still get the heavy firepower currently offered by the HC. i know alot of people wont go for this, but i really dont think playing with numbers is going to fix it.

(sorry for the long post, but like i said, i havent been able to post here since now so i had alot to say)

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #28 June 21, 2009 4:49:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i know alot of people wont go for this, but i really dont think playing with numbers is going to fix it.

Shall I put you down for no fix needed then?

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TheRezonator
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #29 June 21, 2009 6:50:27 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

haha, no i guess i should try n be helpful

okay, let me see,

I dont play advent much so i cant comment about Guardians

definitly think LF ability ranges should be extended and that they should affect cap ships

i like the current Missile Barrage effect, but i still dont think its that visible, especially in the middle of a firefight, considering how much red weapons fire there already is... idn, maybe make it more like a long trail like SC currently have, and just scrap the SC trail, or give them a smaller effect, atm, its very good, but not nearly as necessary as seeing the missile barrage being fired

but other than that i think leave it as it is

with carriers dont put me down for anything because i dont want to skew the results, i think i fix is needed but yeah, you know my opinion

with scouts... i dont know... i guess a damage buff would be good, to help it intergrate into fleets but dont increase resource cost or fleet supply cost

i didnt know vasari scouts were inferior to the other two? if so, definitely do whatever to bring it to par with the other two scouts

actually, the more i think about it the more i like using scouts to counter LRF, so no nerfs at all

i dont play advent, but i think a small nerf to health etc, and definitly think the weapons need to be changed. i mean, as it is, the other two LRF can only target one ship/structure at a time, so i definitly think the damage needs to be set at a similar level as the other two LRF, and each of the beams should have the damage divided evenly, but only 2 of 3 beam should be able to fire at a single target

i agree with all points for buffing LF's, as long as 'support cruisers' includes carriers

but i dont think they need to be nerfed at all, they is already enough going against them.

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Deceiver_0
gugabalog
Join Date 02/2009
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Reply #30 June 21, 2009 8:52:34 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I say just buff everything on the light frigate, put me down for straight yes.

I say we also revamp the triangle. Make lrf counter support and lf counter lrm.

This way lf will not have to run past its counter (lrm) to get to support cruisers, lf should still counter carriers.

And the lrms will utterly decimate the support cruisers, but these shouldn't even be in use until the enemy has hc so that shouldnt be a problem.

Anmyways I say triangle goes FLAK>LF>LRM>SUPPORT>?>?>?

Think about it and it would work, atleast if the ai gets done right.

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TheRezonator
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Reply #31 June 21, 2009 12:16:04 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

I say we also revamp the triangle. Make lrf counter support and lf counter lrm.

this idea was batted around, alot of peopl said why do you have to build a few extra labs and put so much into research for an inferior ship that is countered by what you already have.

i do, however, agree. the triangle is broken... i think the LRF just has too much going for it, range, damage, speed. and early game there just isnt much that can counter it.

im not sure what counters flak frigs (if its LF i will laugh) but really, you dont have to destroy the carriers to make them useless. unless you can use carriers to destroy flak frigs, there is nothing to stop you dominating with an LRF/Flak frig combo with maybe some carrier support. LRF just drills LF before it can get close enough to attack the LRF OR the flak frig...

idn, i personally think the carrier should be given flak weapons (as well as caps). i know im going to cop heaps of crap for that comment. ill just ask to keep it nice?

anyway, LF counters carriers right, carriers with SC counter LRF, and LRF counter LF. it makes sense, except the flak frigs just mess it up. keep it simple and really, itll fix problems much better than playing with numbers till kingdom come.

another thing i reckon would be nice is if you could split half of you fighter support to defend bombers as they make runs on the enemy ships, and setting the other half to defend the ships in your fleet from bombers.

another thing that would be good is if the fleet could automatically manage fighter coverage. so, if, in the heat of battle, alot of SC has grouped towards this side of the fleet or the other, then place more SC in that area to provide better defense. maybe a new ability for carrier caps could be to boost the effectiveness/effeciency of this fleet ability. it would make sense that you wouldnt keep your SC spread (more or less) evenly if there was an obvious push at one particular point...

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #32 June 21, 2009 5:03:56 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i can finally post here, it was broken for me since it was created

Yeah sorry about that, there were some browser compatibility issues with my html, but should now work on Firefox, IE and Safari.

as long as 'support cruisers' includes carriers

I consider them support cruisers.

but i still dont think its that visible, especially in the middle of a firefight,

I'd like there to be some sort of graphic when MB begins thats visible if you've zoomed out to view the entire gravwell. From that far you can still see things like Malice, repair cloud, Emp charge etc. when theyre cast (especially since they have a good AOE) I think something similar should come before wave after wave of tiny little missiles start pouring out.

i guess i should try n be helpful

This is what I'm going for, to be helpful. I want the DEVS to keep striving for perfect balance, especially since the game is getting so close to it despite the complex (yet amazing) system it has. This thread's goal is to make it easier for them to take input from us, not to just whine about the games balance.

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #33 June 22, 2009 9:52:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Please remove me from "no change needed" on both carriers and missile barrage.  I thought I was clear that I strongly felt a change was needed, but none of the changes you listed were appropriate.

 

For light frigates, put me down for a yay on:

  • increase damage
  • increase shield/hp/armour
  • tweak targetting AI
  • nerf counter (LRF damage)

I'd also recommend, as I suggested in another thread, that perhaps they could also have their turn speed buffed.  This would improve their mobility in combat.  Another possibility you might want to include up there.  If you do add it, you can put me down as a yay.

 

While we're at it, maybe we should bring up the topic of siege frigates?  Possible buffs could include:

  • reduce resource cost
  • reduce command cost
  • increase health
  • increase combat damage
  • increase bombardment damage
  • reduce experience granted on death 

 

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EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #34 June 22, 2009 11:36:15 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Increase turn speed don LF for me to.

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Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #35 June 22, 2009 11:47:40 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm gonna stick with a format as anything else would mean me writing a WoT...

 

REPULSE:



            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost?:
YAY!!!!!!

                        Decrease AOE?:
Demi Yay

                        Increase resource cost?:
Yay      

                         Cause damage to shields?:
Yay
            Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?:
Yay
                        No affect to Cap Ships?:
Or at least less effect...

MISSILE BARRAGE:


            Nerf Missile Barrage-

                        Decrease total damage?:

NAY!!!

                        Increase AM cost?

Nay

                        Decrease AOE?
                          
Nay
            Buff Counters-

                        Increase range on ability interrupts?:

Nay
                        LF abilities can target caps?:
Nay

                       Graphic Improvement?:
 Yay

CARRIERS:


            Buff Carriers-

                        Decrease build penalty?:
Yay
                        Increase fighter HP?:
Nay
                        Reduce movement penalty?:
Huh?
            Nerf Counters-

                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?:
Nay

SCOUTS:


            Nerf Scouts-

                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?:
Yay
                        Increase scout supply requirement?:
Nay
                        Increase resource cost?:

Nay
            Buff Vasari Scouts-

                        Increase Hp/Shields?:
Yay

                        Increase damage?:
Yay


ILLUMINATORS:

            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?: 

YAY!!!
                        Adjust damage division between beams?:

Maybe
                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?:

Nay
                        Increase supply requirement?:

Nay
                       Decrease Damage?:
 NAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LIGHT FRIGATES (personally, I like how they become obsolete.  After all, it is essentially LF=>HC=>Battleship)  Its just the figurative big brother...

            Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?:
SUPER NAY!!!!

                        Increase Damage bonus to armor type?:
Nay
                    
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?:
Nay
                   
                         Increase ability range?:Stardock Entertainment
Yay
Stardock Entertainment
                        Increase firing arc?:
Nay
Stardock Entertainment
             Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?:Stardock Entertainment
Yay

             Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?:
Nay    


                          Increase resource cost?:

See above...

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crashmatusow
Join Date 02/2009
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Reply #36 June 23, 2009 12:48:17 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

carriers-

decrease build penalty-yes

reduce movement pnealty- no, it makes sens that they would be slower than frigates.

guardians-

increase am cost-sure

decrease AOE-no.

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Deceiver_0
top vasari
Join Date 07/2006
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Reply #37 June 23, 2009 8:23:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Gaurdians- Increase antimatter

Illums- increase cost

Missile barrage is fine as it is.

Carriers- Reduce build penalty.

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TheRezonator
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Reply #38 June 23, 2009 10:09:48 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

Increase range on ability interrupts?:

Increase turn speed?:

not sure if those two were there last time i posted here but id like my vote added to them please

i remember a little while ago there was debate about the cielo (the second TEC utility cruiser). people were saying the ship itself fills a sort of close range role, with close range targeted abilities and medium-low powered/range weapons

the debate has since died down alot, which either means it was fixed, or people just got over it.

i dont know if you want to have a closer look and add it to the list, but yeah, possibly some things to look for could be a more powerful weapon, seeing as it cant exactly sit out of range (being a command cruiser maybe it needs more than 1 type/bank?) maybe boost health/shields whatever or change armor type or rating. and maybe increase range to its abilties, with appropriate nerfs to other things if it could become a balance issue. i doubt any of these changes will make it a game breaker, but theres a chance?

naturally, voting can choose which option(s) could be implemented

just a suggestion

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-Ue_Carbon
Join Date 07/2008
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Reply #39 June 23, 2009 2:12:04 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Ok im copying and pasting....hope I dont miss anything importaint.

REPULSE:



            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost? Aye.

                        Decrease AOE?: Aye

             Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?:Yes


MISSILE BARRAGE:


        

Other than that no change.

CARRIERS:


            Buff Carriers- No change needed.

SCOUTS:


No change needed.

ILLUMINATORS:

            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?: Nay

                        Adjust damage division between beams?: AYE

                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?:Aye (personaly prefer them to be glass cannons)

                       Decrease Damage?: Nay,(just adjust the side beams to be as effective as the other LRF AoE)

LIGHT FRIGATES ...

            Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?: Aye

                        Increase Damage bonus to armor type?:Aye
                   
                   
                         Increase ability range?:Stardock EntertainmentAye( slightly)

Stardock Entertainment
                        Increase firing arc?:AYE

Stardock Entertainment

 

Hope thats about it...

                       Graphic Improvement?: Aye
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Azrak_Navarion
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Reply #40 June 24, 2009 4:25:25 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Okay, I'll just post my "yay"s:

 

Increase AM cost for repulse

Increase Figher HP

No fix needed for MB

Increase Illuminator cost

Decrease the damage from LRFs against LFs

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #41 June 24, 2009 6:44:31 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

i remember a little while ago there was debate about the cielo

The cielo is a powerful and somewhat under used support frigate. In the shadow of the hoshiko, it doesnt get to see much fighting, however, its abilities remain highly valuable to any TEC fleet.

The Cielo, unlike the LF, doesnt see much action because hoshikos outweigh it in usefulness (not because it isnt useful). Many I've seen don't build it because they don't feel they need it.

I've have yet to see a debate on possible stats changes for this cruiser, and for that reason I won't post anything about it here. However, if a couple of ideas were to pop up here I may add it as a new topic.

As for now, personally, I don't think there's any issue here.

 

Also thank you to everyone who has put in their 2 cents. Tell your friends about this post if you will. The more people I can get here, the more valuable this thread will be to the devs.

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EadTaes
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Reply #42 June 24, 2009 12:24:57 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Cielo'S are very usefull. If people feel they don'T need it their just retards.

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Haree78
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Reply #43 June 24, 2009 12:55:02 PM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

 
 1) Most people play TEC 

 

I believe that no one {except maybe the developers} really knows that for sure. If your basing it on the Starbase poll, then your logic is flawed. Most people here are giving their opinion on how to improve the game's balance, not which race should be better than the others. 

My logic isn't floored I was stating what I believed to be the case to actually back up the point about balance suggestions will be based on race of choice and influenced by the balance of who plays what races.  Whether TEC isn't the most popular race or not, it makes no odds, I've no doubt there isn't an even 33.3% each race distribution.

 
 I don't want my single player games balanced and effected based solely on 2 or 3 hour games. 

 

That's fine I can understand that because I dont wan't my multiplayer games balanced and effected solely on  4+ hour games 1 person plays against Ai who don't understand strategy and have a very limited understanding of the games mechanics. 

You want to balance the game around the micro, I want to balance around the macro, there's a big difference.  For example multiplayer gamers want to balance illuminators around figure of 8 based micro managed attacked, I don't, I would never use cheap tactics like that against AI (it's not cheap in multi, I mean it's cheap cause the AI doesn't do it and wont counter it) so I want illums to be balanced around the AI using them as I don't want to micro to enjoy the game.

 But on this thread we both have an equal voice, so we find balance. Shall I put oyu down across the board as a "No fix needed"? I still need you to declare a definite position if I am to accurately represent you here. 

In all honesty I haven't had time lately to properly have an opinion on 1.03 Entrench, I was just expressing my dislike at the idea that my game will be balanced around 2 hour games.

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definitelynotme
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Reply #44 June 24, 2009 2:00:11 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

These are my yays, everything else is a nay:

Repulse:

   increase am cost

Vasari Scout:

   Increase dps

   increase hull/shield

Illums:

   Increase build cost

   Lower hull/sheilds

   Lower dps

Carriers:

   Remove speed nerf

   decrease build cost

Missle Barrage:

   No fix needed

Light Frigate:

   No fix needed

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Howdidudothat
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Reply #45 June 24, 2009 6:04:37 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

_~Guardians~_

Repulse:

Y - N - N - N

Buff Counters:

Increase LF DPS

_~MB

N - N - Y - N - N - Y

_~Carriers~_

Y - Y - Y - N

_~Scouts~_

N - N - N - Y - Y

_~Illuminator Scum Spammers~_

Y - N - Y - N - N

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dresda
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Reply #46 June 24, 2009 6:43:17 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

 

No Nerfing guardians whatsoever, no decreasing anything on it.  No increasing resources.  Causing damage to shields would be nice though

I'm actually for nerfing the scouts.  Lower their shields and their health so that spamming them would be useless, because they would die quickly. no damage increase

no nerfing illums at all. 

leave light frigs as they are

i'm neutral to everything else

 

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JuleTron
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Reply #47 June 25, 2009 2:00:01 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Imho, Repulse should have a higher AM cost.

MB should have a smaller AOE. Maybe make it a targeted and directed ability or possible give it a target cap.

Scouts need no change.

Carriers need more speed and a smaller SC build penalty. 

I agree with all suggested LF changes except for an LRM damage reduction against them.

Support cruisers definately need better targeting AI, especially the Domina.

I think that Subs and Ruiners need to be changed. Subs die far too quickly and Distortion Field is meh. Ruiners are so slow that they have no real advantage in being able to move. The Revelation needs a buff.

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Reply #48 June 25, 2009 3:33:00 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Support cruisers definately need better targeting AI, especially the Domina.

Oh yeah, almost forgot about the domina.

If others agree i think I'll put up a topic about making the second support ship better. As a high tiered ship on the tech tree, you would think that you'd see them more, but as it is, their usefulness is 'meh' in comparison to their counterparts. Especially the Domina Subjugator

Will anyone else vote on that?

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Azrak_Navarion
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Reply #49 June 25, 2009 6:36:21 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well, Overseers and Cielos are priceless, if people don't bother using them it's their own fault. It's only the Subjugator that could use a tweak.

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TheRezonator
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Reply #50 June 25, 2009 10:16:00 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

i personally use the cielo alot (well, enough, i dont exactly spam them)

i was just remembering that a few people had issues with its survivability vs combat effectiveness (abilities aside), so i was mentioning it in case anyone wanted to comment

one another note, do you want to propose changes to carrier caps to make them more viable? im not sure about the other two races, but i know the sova is all but useless.

+1
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