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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #276 July 16, 2009 12:47:46 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also, it is my personal request for us all to drop cap ship abilities in this thread. This is an bottomless can of worms, each the size of manhattan.

Gotta agree; we're all in agreement of the standings of the capital ships, but there's little to no agreement about what to do about them.  This is worth its own thread.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #277 July 16, 2009 1:32:09 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

@Howididudothat

Ah sorry, thought i put those in there but i maybe i got distracted while putting yours up. All fixed now.

@n3rull

I was considering making a topic on vasari caps, as they do indeed need some help. I'd say 99.9% of vasari players online use the egg to start with. Then on rare rare occasions I'll see a SKirantra, and even rarer occasions a Vulkoras. Unless the player is new to online play, I don't ever see a kortul (and if i do, its dead within 10 minutes). And the Marauder? well, I'll jsut say most Vasari will opt for bombers against mb rather than a marauder. I've used the marauder successfully before (not as a starting cap) but the one thing I DO find its great at is getting a fleet deep into enemy territory to take down superweapons. Being able to make your ships phase disruption immune is highly underrated. Perhaps I'll make another thread about cap ship abilities.

@Raging Amish

I agree with you about MB. The recent nerf has also allowed Advent and Vasari (sorry tec your ships are screwed) ships to get out of the AOE before theyre destroyed. I recall a scenario where I MB'd an illum fleet twice, and both times my opponent was able to save the majority of his fleet, Jump out, heal up and come back. Vasari just need some more options.

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Darvin3
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Reply #278 July 16, 2009 3:52:29 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Capital ship abilities definitely need to be another thread.  Heck, just look at the Marza thread; even on-topic discussion of one ability spawned pages and pages of heated responses.

I tend to agree with Amish that every faction has some absolutely wicked abilities, but the fact remains that if I were to categorize missile barrage, I'd put it right beside "meteor control" and "safety override protocol", the two most powerful starbase abilities in the game.  The reason is that they're all uncapped area of effect abilities that, if given the opportunity, can wipe out entire fleets on their own.  Since the nerf of malice, nothing else can do that.  I will agree, however, that the Progenitor and Evacuator also need attention for their own issues.

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JuleTron
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #279 July 16, 2009 7:32:05 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If MB is so out of line with every other ability in the game then why is it that no-one wants it changed? Its either balanced or not. Imo, it needs to be comparable to abilities on other cap ships. Making it shoot in a cone andor have a target cap is needed. This change would require equal damage but shorter duration.

 

Interesting observation:

People want almost every Vasari unit to receive a buff. Some say boost the Vasari scout, everyone says boost the skirmisher (even more then the other factions), some say boost the assailant, everyone says boost the carrier, some say boost the subverter, everyone says boost the overseer, everyone says boost the enforcer, some say boost their bombers, some say boost their SB and everyone says boost their cap ships.

Isn't something wrong when almost every unit of a particular faction (Vasari) is requested to receive a boost? I'm not saying that all these units really do need a boost but  things look pretty bad for Vasari. Its amazing that they are competitive at all. Must be the Phase Missiles.

Vasari ships have oddly low DPS and I can't understand why. Imo the Egg is fine except fot its colonise bonus. This should be changed to give 1/2/3 extra constructors. Maybe this is too good, I don't know, but something needs to be done.

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Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #280 July 16, 2009 8:42:40 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

It's the neutrals. On a map with enough Neutrals, the Vasari rock. Without them....they crash and burn. It's a gamble when you choose Vasari. If there are gonna be plenty of neutrals then by all means, but if there aren't going to be neutrals, they're in a bit of a pickle.

If the neutrals could be balanced somehow....(put an allegiance on them like with planets damn't), the Vasari could probably be fixed, but overall.....the Assailants is weak, the Skirmisher is weak, the enforcer is weak, the carrier cap is weak, the battleship is bugged.

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

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JuleTron
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Reply #281 July 16, 2009 8:58:26 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

Oh yeah, I forgot about the neutrals, but that is exactly my point. Almost everything that the Vasari has is weak. Something must be done!

As for the the new topis questions: yay, nay, unsure.

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mbar8
Join Date 01/2009
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Reply #282 July 16, 2009 9:12:07 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Siege Frigates:  Decrease Supply Cost?: Yay (I'd like to see it at 8)

 

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N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
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Reply #283 July 16, 2009 10:36:49 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Vasari ships have oddly low DPS and I can't understand why. Imo the Egg is fine except fot its colonise bonus. This should be changed to give 1/2/3 extra constructors
With all due respect, this is be a f...kin brilliant idea! Make the extra constructors scuttle after 2 minutes so they can put in two turrets, an extractor or something.
Great.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #284 July 16, 2009 11:19:45 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Overall the Vasari are weak. I agree on this point. What makes or breaks a vasari's game is whether he can get to neutrals. Neutrals are their life. With that extra cash, they can buy more ships to compensate for the lesser effectiveness of their ships. Without neutrals, it's farewell Vasari. They need those neutrals to spur their early game econ for fleet and later to buy buildings to help an eco that's too neutral reliant.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #285 July 16, 2009 11:24:22 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh, and I forgot a fix I'd like. Make lrf's slower than carriers. Right now LRFs have a speed of 500, carriers 450. That's just wrong.

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Sobric
Join Date 07/2009
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Reply #286 July 16, 2009 12:59:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'd like to throw in here a tweak to the Vasari Marauder's abilities, which might completely change the way that that ship works.

Essentially I'd like to see the 'Q' slot ability changed from targetting another ship, to only targetting itself, draining anti-matter slowly, but make the ship completely invisible. Basically a cloak. From reading the Marauder's description when first playing this game, I assumed that it was in some way a "stealth ship", and feel that the rest of its abilities reflect behind-enemy-phase-lines action. The ability should allow the Marauder to slip through systems undetected (except, perhaps, by scouts?), but the more systems travelled through the more likely you'll have no anti-matter left in a bad spot.

The LF could also be linked to this ship somehow, perhaps allowing for upgraded LFs to travel cloaked with a Marauder a short distance (obviously requiring a complete change in the current research upgrade), also allowing a Marauder & LFs to slip behind fleets on a tactical level (to take out support ships perhaps....).

Sorry if this the wrong thread for such a drastic change, but I feel it will add a completely new depth to the Vasari that is currently lacking.

Cheers,

Sobric

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crashmatusow
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Reply #287 July 16, 2009 1:10:36 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Raging Amish,
reply 10
Oh, and I forgot a fix I'd like. Make lrf's slower than carriers. Right now LRFs have a speed of 500, carriers 450. That's just wrong.

why? carriers are bigger, bulkier ships. why would a cruisers be faster than a frigate?

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Raging Amish
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Reply #288 July 16, 2009 1:30:33 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Carriers are the counter to lrfs. Or at least they're supposed to be. Right now, you can make 1 flak per squadron of enemy strikecraft ( or whatever ratio fits ur fancy), and then just fill the rest of ur ship slots with lrf's. The lrf's don't have to worry about fighters, and can just maul the carriers because now.....they can catch them. Before they couldn't. To me, it's wrong when the ship that carriers are SUPPOSED to counter can just maul carriers to bits

Order of speed should be

fighters>scouts>light frigs&Flak>carriers>lrfs

HC's fit in just above light frigs and just below scouts. I don't include them in that chain because they're the uber ship always put to exception

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N3rull
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Reply #289 July 16, 2009 3:34:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Light Frigate- Decrease LRF damage bonus to medium armor?
- nay.

In my belief, LRFs should kill LFs badly, but shouldn't do any awesome damage to what they're not meant to counter. They shouldn't deal such good damage to carriers (nerf vs. heavy by 15-25%).
They shouldn't deal such good damage to caps (nerf vs. cap armor by 15-25%).
They should deal slightly less to HCs (nerf vs. very heavy by 10-15%)
At the same time, LFs should deal slightly more damage across the board (except vs light armor) to be more battle viable while still having a strong counter. While we're at LRFs, LFs should get a buff against HCs, so that they are neither a counter nor countered by them (buff antiheavy damage type vs very heavy armor by 15-20%). LFs should still be beaten by HCs, but not badly.

I think that could fix LRFs.
PS. Fixing carriers is yet another issue.

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Darvin3
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Reply #290 July 16, 2009 4:10:03 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

If the neutrals could be balanced somehow....(put an allegiance on them like with planets damn't)

I totally agree; Vasari need to be balanced for a greater variety of maps.  Feels like they're gimped without neutrals.  On the other hand, Advent have a significant disadvantage when it comes to neutrals (no real refinery).  We definitely need something here so that maps don't heavily favour one faction or another.

Really, outside of phase missiles (Good at taking out 1 target at a time: I.E. Capital ships), neutrals, and the egg, I'm not sure what else the Vasari got.

Their econ isn't that bad.  They get a bad reputation for 4-lab level trade, but if it wasn't for this I'd probably say they have the strongest civic tech tree overall.  The ability to observe any phase jumps, as well as phase stabilizers are a huge advantage.  They also have much better offensive starbasing capacity.  I've been playing around with Vasari offensive starbasing recently, and it's GREAT.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #291 July 16, 2009 4:11:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

In my belief, LRFs should kill LFs badly, but shouldn't do any awesome damage to what they're not meant to counter. They shouldn't deal such good damage to carriers (nerf vs. heavy by 15-25%).
They shouldn't deal such good damage to caps (nerf vs. cap armor by 15-25%).
They should deal slightly less to HCs (nerf vs. very heavy by 10-15%)
At the same time, LFs should deal slightly more damage across the board (except vs light armor) to be more battle viable while still having a strong counter. While we're at LRFs, LFs should get a buff against HCs, so that they are neither a counter nor countered by them (buff antiheavy damage type vs very heavy armor by 15-20%). LFs should still be beaten by HCs, but not badly.

One should note the bonuses are in intervals of 25%. No reason they couldnt be in 10s or 5s I suppose, but the devs may have done 25 for simplicity, or there may be another reason. Who knows.

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MindsEye
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Reply #292 July 16, 2009 4:29:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Vasari econ isnt horrible.They get both crys and metal upgrades for price of 1.They get discounted ships and extra ship slots.Their trade is one level up than advent.They are a bit dependant on neutrals.One fix off top of my head is to move trade to tier 3.To balance it out tho all scouts should be able to capture neutrals so I dunno.Would make neutrals more interesting if all factions could battle it out with scouts.

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Reply #293 July 16, 2009 5:03:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Would make neutrals more interesting if all factions could battle it out with scouts.

More interesting?, possibly, except that vasari has the weakest scout. Honestly though when there are 2 Vasari battling over neutrals it isn't terribly interesting, as most of the time the player with less scouts in a grav well will fly off to another neutral extractor location until a time he can overpower his opponent (usually with by having more scouts).

Then there's the whole balance issue of taking away one of the few advantages Vasari have.

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MindsEye
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Reply #294 July 16, 2009 6:20:43 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Well I did say move their trade to tier 3 like advent and they still get cheaper unit upgrades,more fleet point,and metal and crys for one price so they would be balanced I think.

It be more interesting because you would have to pay more attention and defende neutrals better.More fleet into scouts defending and attacking neutrals.I dunno if its a good idea its just one I had for evening the econs and neutrals.I for one dont like vas trade being tier 4.Yeah scouts would prolly need to be more balanced if this happened so everyone had a fair chance at neutrals.

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JuleTron
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Reply #295 July 17, 2009 3:09:25 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

With all due respect, this is be a f...kin brilliant idea! Make the extra constructors scuttle after 2 minutes so they can put in two turrets, an extractor or something.
Great.

Thanks for the support. If the extra constuctors auto-scuttle that would prevent the ability from being OP. As for the Akkan its colonise bonus should be 1/2/4 free extractors.

As for the Vasari yes they do get a decent eco and strong civic tree, but just about every unit they get is weak.

The Maruader is useful, but only rarely is it needed. Changing it would be a good idea. Subversion should be more on par with Embargo. Its DPS needs a boost as well to make it on the same level as other support caps.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #296 July 17, 2009 10:52:28 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Subversion isn't the problem imo. They buffed it a long time ago. Starts off ok. Ends up being brutal if you ever get it to level 3. One of the things people don't realize about subversion is how long it lasts (a damn long time).

I dunno how you should be asking from the support class. Between the Rapture (I think that's the advent support cap), Marauder, and Dunov, the abilities they bring are all great, but they're not direct.....they're indirect support.

The marauder provides a counter to MB, the abilitiy to BYPASS phase jump inhibitors & outrun your enemy to get a jump start at attacking stuff behind enemy lines, and also gives like a 5 minute delay to planets in ship production and construction THAT CAN STACK. You have no idea how much you'll frustrate someone if his planet is building with a 300% red multiplier (he constructs at roughly 1/4 his normal rate). Great for TEC players abusing repair bays.

Still, the cap doesn't stand alone. Needs fleet to support it. Overall, great ship though.

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Raging Amish
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Reply #297 July 17, 2009 3:44:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hmm....something that I kinda would like is...and get this...it's not combat related: On the Quit Gave/Surrender Screen, get rid of quit game. Make it surrender only if you want to leave early. I realize there are disconnects, and there are minidumps...but if there was a way to insure that when someone is intentionally leaving, they have to surrender, it'd be appreciated.

Probably would be an effort in vain though. There are other ways to "manually" disconnect urself from sins and avoid the losses. Damn't. So the consoles do have an advantage!

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Darvin3
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Reply #298 July 17, 2009 3:50:41 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

The problem with surrenders is that in team games that leaves you with a stationary drone of an ally rather than an AI... although I'm not quite sure which is worse.  In any case, we do need better mechanisms to handle leavers.

 

Besides, everyone goes by your wins to games played ratio, not win to losses.  I personally do surrender if I'm the last person on my team.

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Deceiver_0
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Reply #299 July 17, 2009 4:03:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Raging Amish,
reply 22
Hmm....something that I kinda would like is...and get this...it's not combat related: On the Quit Gave/Surrender Screen, get rid of quit game. Make it surrender only if you want to leave early. I realize there are disconnects, and there are minidumps...but if there was a way to insure that when someone is intentionally leaving, they have to surrender, it'd be appreciated.

Probably would be an effort in vain though. There are other ways to "manually" disconnect urself from sins and avoid the losses. Damn't. So the consoles do have an advantage!

This is a good idea, and may actually help the purposes of stats. As the gap between wins+losses/games played would be a better indicator of the kind of player a person is. People choosing the "quit" button happens much much more often then people disconnecting, so (theoretically) someone with a huge gap between games played and wins+losses would obviously either have a really, really unreliable connection or is manually pulling the plug to avoid a loss, both of which are types of players many wouldn't want to play with (at least in team vs team games). Between smurfs, disconnects and the "quit" button, stats have little to no meaning.

Also players being disconnected or manually pulling the plug will be replaced by computers, while players simply admitting defeat will not, allowing the player who had defeated them to move on and not have to waste time making sure an Ai doesn't continue to bother them. We'll just have to make sure people know that losing 1 battle doesnt necessarily mean you've lost the game and discourage premature surrendering.

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N3rull
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Reply #300 July 17, 2009 4:46:52 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Subversion isn't the problem imo. They buffed it a long time ago. Starts off ok. Ends up being brutal if you ever get it to level 3. One of the things people don't realize about subversion is how long it lasts (a damn long time).

I dunno how you should be asking from the support class. Between the Rapture (I think that's the advent support cap), Marauder, and Dunov, the abilities they bring are all great, but they're not direct.....they're indirect support.

The marauder provides a counter to MB, the abilitiy to BYPASS phase jump inhibitors & outrun your enemy to get a jump start at attacking stuff behind enemy lines, and also gives like a 5 minute delay to planets in ship production and construction THAT CAN STACK. You have no idea how much you'll frustrate someone if his planet is building with a 300% red multiplier (he constructs at roughly 1/4 his normal rate). Great for TEC players abusing repair bays.

Still, the cap doesn't stand alone. Needs fleet to support it. Overall, great ship though.

Since we're down to discussing cap ships again, I just have to respond here.

In my opinion, it is a very important difference between an ability A that is powerful and sometimes useful and ability B that is awesome but useful only once every fifteenth game.

Dunov:
1] Shield restore. Powerful support ability that you will find a use for in any game you play as long as there is a second ship next to the Dunov.
2] EMP charge. Works against all cap ships, takes out antimatter, ceases channeling, disables abilities, is AOE, destroys shields. A hundred uses for it in any game you play, as long as the enemy uses any abilities at all ( = always).
3] Magnetize. Fouls up the enemy's usage of abilities and wipes his strikecraft. Awesome. Always.
4] Flux Field. Awesome for any cap that wants to spam something. Akkan would want to spam ion bolts on enemy caps. Marza would like to spam rad bombs. Kol would like to spam everything. Always useful, even if being a support ability.

Rapture:
1] Vertigo. Useful in any battle.
2] Vengeance. Useful in any losing battle.
3] Concentration. Useful in any winning battle (lol?).
4] Domination. roflmao.

Antorak:
1] Phase out hull. Useful when you want to disable an enemy ship's channeling... and? Yes, there is a dozen more uses for it, but SERIOUSLY, how often does that crap happen? Besides, it is a two edged sword. Yes it is spammable, but the enemy is immune. So are your ships. Immune, but useless. The tactical potential is incredible. Usefulness is almost nil.
2] Distort Gravity. Makes ships move faster. And? Like, I mean, wow, holy moly. My ships fly faster, yay. Ignore pji's yay.
Now seriously, thanks to the pathfinding issues that makes ships change their jump-out point when they get dist. gravity, the ships start maneuvering more than they should and the effect is almost nullified cause dist. gravity does NOT increase ship turning speed. Besides, fleets always fly as fast at the slowest ship, meaning the Marauder, which doesn't become a real hot rod at all.
3] Subversion. yaaaa. Awesome.
Slows construction? Great. He won't build turrets. Question - why would you NOT kill his constructors the moment you see him starting any construction?
Slows ship production? Great. You really believe he does not have factories in nearby gravwells? That's the usual scenario anyway - a river of ships jumping out from his nearby planets until either you wipe everything except the ships that just entered or he wiped you like that.
Gives 5 minutes of vision? Awesome! ... or is it?
4] Phase Stabilizer. Yay! Needs you to have phase stabilizers researched yourself, built and fleets ready to get jumped. Very, very, VERY situational.

So, all in all, I do NOT believe one support cap is equal to another. 
Some are useful in any game.
The other is a gadget.

----------
edit. all the above was typed in a hurry so not all tiniest aspects of the mentioned abilities are addressed, but the point is made. A dunov or a rapture both can do something useful in any battle and we all know that battles are where the game is decided (well, you do have to lose your fleet before you lose the game, unless you're sabotaging yourself, did something very silly or are totally drunk ).
Antorak can do a few things that might never have a chance to meet the situations they're made to counter, cause what they're made to counter hardly ever happens.

And btw.

I personally do surrender if I'm the last person on my team.
Let's play 1v1 lol.

Sorry for offtopic ^^'

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