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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #251 July 13, 2009 8:02:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Yeah Im good with it I dont think it throws much off at all.N3rull is complaining that advent sc are soooo much better than vas.When they are really close and vas are probably better imo.Anyway you dont see them use it much because they dont have too but  advent HAVE to it is the only unit they have for taking out a sb.So I dont wanna see advent sc nerfed.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #252 July 13, 2009 10:23:23 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

WTF I'm not asking to nerf anything here about strikecraft.
L2read.

I want orky to do more damage vs structures because a fully offensively upgraded orkulus (i.e. 7k-ish credits + a crapload of time) deals about as much damage to structures as two ogrovs (1,2k ish credits and, like 2 minutes of construction?).

Every faction can spam bombers,
every faction can spam LRFs,
but the Vasari can't build torpedo cruisers. They can build the Orky offensively. However, the orky just doesn't do its anti-structure job well enough when completely upgraded. It just won't break through Advent's repair bay + shield regenerating hangars combo, for example, even if it has 3 assault upgrades. Advent can build 5 starfish and wipe the repair bays and hangars all at once, leaving the starbase without support. TEC can build 7 ogrovs and break through the starbase regardless of any regeneration it may be given. Vasari can NOT build a second Orky, nor can they make any more offensive upgrades.

And Vasari strikecraft aren't better than any other.

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Deceiver_0
MindsEye
Join Date 05/2008
+7
Reply #253 July 13, 2009 4:07:46 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I didnt say you were I was just saying I dont want to see them nerfed.

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Deceiver_0
Ascension
Join Date 04/2008
+4
Reply #254 July 13, 2009 6:05:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

mindseye is a well known fact you love advent dearly just like ICO. THEY NEED A NERF. PLAIN AND SIMPLE. 

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #255 July 14, 2009 12:04:27 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

hey ascension, any votes for siege frig fixes?

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Deceiver_0
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
+77
Reply #256 July 14, 2009 9:28:44 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums 
Siege Frigates

      Buff Siege Frigates

                        Increase Hp/shields/armor?:Nay                          
                        Change armor type (currently light)?:Nay
                        Decrease Resource cost?:Nay
                        Decrease Supply Cost?:Yay (12)
                        Increase Bombardment damage?:Nay
                        Make TEC Heavy Fallout Active (currently passive)?:Yay
                        Reduce Heavy Fallout effect time:Nay
                        Reduce Xp value (currently 65xp)?:Nay
                        Apply fixes to siege militia?:Yay
                        Apply fixes to siege pirates?:Yay

                         
      No Fix Needed- 


Be very careful for what you ask for with Seige Frigates. They used to cost 5 ship slots per unit when the game came out. That was hell, and I was glad to see these knocked up to 14 ship slots when they made the fix. These ships need to be frail. They need to be a risk to buy. Planets are the most precious resource in this game. Making the ship that takes them too powerful in any way shape or form can ruin this game. 14 ship slots is a bit excessive I agree, but I do not support the idea of going below 12. I hesitate with buffing the ship itself and lowering the ship slots. If anything is going to change, only do one or the other. Hopefully, the only change is the number of ship slots. IF THE ONLY CHANGE is the # of ship slots, then yes, 10 ship slots is ok. 
 
Also, remember, the AI loves the seige frigate. Making the ship that the AI loves more powerful may not break the bank for online play, but it could frustrate a lot of single player people who all of sudden see the seige frigate armada coming their way. 
 
Very touchy issue. Be careful with what's changed here.


SEREVUN OVERSEER

      Buff Serevun Overseers-
                       
                         Increase firing arc:Yay                      
                         Increase turn rate?:Yay
                         Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional?:Yay
                         Increase reduc of jump speed:Nay                        
                         Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % :Nay

                         

          No Fix Needed-
 
The ship is odd, I admit. It's not that the ship has no role, and actually, I do use it. This is the best ship in the game for countering anyone who goes straight for your capital ships. You can just randomly add 250 health to ur ship and give it armor. 6-8 of these will keep your cap (egg most likely) alive indefinitely if you micro it right. You could go a couple ways with affecting ships jumping into system. Something along the lines of taking awaytimatter or disabling abilities wouldn't be bad, but a % damage seems a bit too strong for a support cruiser.

SKAROVAS ENFORCER

           Buff Skarovas Enforcers-

                         Decrease Resource Cost?: Nay
                         Decrease Supply Cost?: Nay
                         Increase hp/shields/armor?: Yay
                         Increase Damage?: Yay (To 21.6)
                         Cheaper damage upgrades?: Yay                        
                         Higher reintegration rate?: Nay

           No Fix Needed-

JJ basically covered it all in his other thread. HC clash fests is probably the only rock on rock battle that I support, because you know what? Sometimes I just don't want to make bombers. This can't be buffed TOO much, but it should definitely compare to its TEC and Advent counterparts. Should be the middle man for HP and Shields in the grand scheme. TEC = worst shields, best health. Advent = worst health, best shields. Vasari = middle man. That's the theme. Keep it so that the overall combined health/shields is the same. Arguably, if this ship didn't have reintegration, I'd say 24 dps would be appropriate as opposed to 20. Since it does, make it 21.6. That's a 10% dps nerf if you use the Kodiak 1.8 dps per ship slot ratio. 
The Wave Upgrade Tree needs to be knocked down to tier 2,4, and 5 respectively instead of 4,5,7. This will compare with the TEC autocannon upgrades and the Advent Plasma Upgrades.
DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

           Buff Domina Subjugators-

                         Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yay
                         Increase turn rate?: Yay                            
                         Make abilities AOE?: Nay
                         Remove channeling: Yay                    
                         Fix Targeting AI?: Yay (doubt it's practical to program)
                      
           No Fix Needed-
 
This ship doesn't get used online yes, but the problem is the Guardian, not this ship. EVEN IF the guardian has repulse brought into line, the shield bubble is still hands down better than than anything the subjagator could bring in the first hour of game play. Late game this ship should be used. Problem is this is a lot like the Cielo command cruiser and subverter. You need a big fleet for this to be out and about and effective. 
 
This isn't for rush maps, so I don't think the online community should be pushing for a buff considering online maps (99% of the time) are PURE rush maps. Their job is pretty clear. It's a tier 5 ship with a tier 6 ability that you should get once you have an econ that supports a fleet of appropriate size that would actually need this ship and what it offers.
CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

           Buff Carrier Caps-

                        Increase Initial Armor? Nay                          
                        Increase Squadron Capacity? Nay, Nay, 1000X Nay
                        Make SC buffs AOE? Yay                   
                        Increase additional drones(Adept Drone Anima)? Yay only if SC buffs aren't made AOE                         
                        Re-work Scramble Bombers? Yay (Bring out say....2,3,5 squads, or 2,4,6?, something like that)
                     

           No Fix Needed-

TBH I wasn't aware that this ship class was a problem. Considering this class brings a CAPITAL Ship with it, I didn't see it as a problem. If anything, I found the Skinatra (Vasari Cap) to be exceptionally weak compared to its brethren. It does 24 dps base, when the sova does 36 and the halcyon does....ok...don't remember that one off the top of my head. 
 
This is hard to balance, because you have a ship that's getting progressively stronger, and then it has the odd quirk of a growing number of SC. That makes re-balancing this class a little fuzzy.
LIGHT FRIGATES

           Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?: YAY (Vasari only, to 12 dps, I've explained why before)
                        Increase Damage bonus to armor type?: YAY (Heavy Only, 175% or 200%)
                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: NAY          
                        Increase ability range?: YAY                             
                        Increase firing arc?: YAY                             
                        Increase turn speed?: YAY

            Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: YAY

            Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?: 1000 X Nay                              
                          Increase resource cost?: Nay

            No Fix Needed-   

Light frigs can't be too strong. They are available from the beginning. You make this ship too strong, you'll just have a new trend: light frigate rushing. BAD BAD BAD.
REPULSE:

            Nerf Guardians-

                        Increase AM cost?: 1000 X Yay
                        Decrease AOE?: Nay                         
                        Increase resource cost?: Nay
                        Cause damage to shields?: Nay

             Buff Counters-

                        Increase LF ability range?: Yay
                        No affect to Cap Ships?: Nay (Sorry, kinda has to be this way)                         
                        Increase Distortion Field activation range?: Nay
                     
            No Fix Needed-
Repulse needs 1 of 2 fixes. The second option isn't here. One is to increase the antimatter used per second. I like that personally, but a second option is to increase the cooldown time to say 30 sec to a min. Those are the best choices. I like the ability for the record. I just don't like that people can abuse it insanely. 

MISSILE BARRAGE:

            Nerf Missile Barrage-

                        Decrease total damage?: Nay                          
                        Increase AM cost? Nay                                  
                        Decrease AOE? Nay
                         
            Buff Counters-

                        Increase range on ability interrupts?: Yay                     
                        LF abilities can target caps?: Nay
                              
            Graphic Improvement?: Yay, needs to be much brigher, like BailKnight's Mod Bright
 
                             
            No Fix Needed-  
No comments here. Ability is counterable, but should be more easily counterable. Phase out Hull, Ion Bolt, Magnetize, Antimatter Bomb, Reverie could all be increased in range to outrange MB.         

CARRIERS:

            Buff Carriers-

                        Decrease build penalty?:NAY                           
                        Increase fighter HP?:NAY                             
                        Reduce movement penalty?:YAY
                                  
            Nerf Counters-

                        Reduce Flak rate of fire?: Not this fix, but something like this
               
            No Fix Needed-          
I have no idea how to balance this, but the problem is flak killing them too fast. How this should be fixed, I don't know, but making the SC stronger could be bad.
SCOUTS:


            Nerf Scouts-

                        Reduce damage buff against light armor?: NAAAAAAAY I WILL SNAP IF THIS HAPPENS     
                        Increase scout supply requirement?:NAAAAAAY SAME HERE
                        Increase resource cost?:Nay
                         
            Buff Vasari Scouts-

                        Increase Hp/Shields?: Yay They just don't compare to TEC and ADvent Scouts in the grand scheme                         
                        Increase damage?: Yay See HP/Shields Arguement
                         
            No Fix Needed-      
These little suckers are fine by me. Vasari scouts don't compare to TEC and Advent, so they need a slight fix.
ILLUMINATORS:

            Nerf Illuminators-

                        Increase resource cost?: Nay (This aint the problem if it's just Illums we're talkin about)                                
                        Adjust damage division between beams?: Yay (Bring back the days of 33% from each!)                             
                        Decrease/adjust the HP/Shields?: Yay (HP & Armor only , 500 hp, 1 armor)
                        Increase supply requirement?: Nay                             
                        Decrease Damage?:Nay (Tier 3, better be the strongest of the three lrfs)
                              
            No Fix Needed- 
I like Illums. Making each beam do 33% would fit the nature of the ship. I strongly disagree with everyone who says changing cost of ships will do anything. I'm sorry, but if they're within 25% of each other in total cost (which is fuzzy cause of the 500 cred/100 resource ratio which isn't constant and the fact that you sell resources at 1/2 price to the black market) In the grand scheme, if the costs are relatively close, they're fine in my book. If the Illum's cost goes up, then so should Assailants and LRMS.
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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #257 July 14, 2009 10:22:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

SEREVUN OVERSEER



Buff Serevun Overseers-



Increase firing arc of abilities?: Yay



Increase turn rate?: Yay



Make 'Reactive nanite armor' omnidirectional (360 degrees)?: Yay



Increase reduction of jump speed for 'Jump Degradation'?: Nay



Allow 'Jump Degradation' to do a damage % to incoming enemy vessels' hulls?: Nay







No Fix Needed- The ship is odd, I admit. It's not that the ship has no role, and actually, I do use it. This is the best ship in thegame for countering anyone who goes straight for your capital ships. You can just randomly add 250 health to urship and give it armor. 6-8 of these will keep your cap (egg most likely) alive indefinitely if you micro it right.You could go a couple ways with affecting ships jumping into system. Something along the lines of taking awayantimatter or disabling abilities wouldn't be bad, but a % damage seems a bit too strong for a support cruiser.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.

You want 360 degrees nanite armor AND increased turn speed AND increased casting arc (360 needs increasing???) even though you already think this to be a powerful ability

AND AT THE SAME TIME

you do not want any buff to the most useless ability in the game® , namely the jump degradation and phase detection.
I mean, it is arguable if nanites need buffing (they're already good, only a little unreliable due to the slow turning speed and 0* casting arc), but it is beyond any doubt that jump degradation has absolutely zero use compared to any other support cruiser ability in teh game.
And yet you want to buff the first and leave the latter.

Please explain.

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Deceiver_0
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
+77
Reply #258 July 14, 2009 11:20:22 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense.

You want 360 degrees nanite armor AND increased turn speed AND increased casting arc (360 needs increasing???) even though you already think this to be a powerful ability

AND AT THE SAME TIME

you do not want any buff to the most useless ability in the game® , namely the jump degradation and phase detection.

I mean, it is arguable if nanites need buffing (they're already good, only a little unreliable due to the slow turning speed and 0* casting arc), but it is beyond any doubt that jump degradation has absolutely zero use compared to any other support cruiser ability in teh game.

And yet you want to buff the first and leave the latter.

Please explain.
@ N3rull

Fair enough. For 360 degrees, I'm assuming this means the ship can fire the ability onto one ship of its choice (capital ship most likely) in any direction within range. I thought the ability already had this, but I'm saying it should be given this if it doesn't already.

Since this is an ability that needs to be used in urgent situations, the turning speed would fit that need.

For jump degradation, it's more that I don't know what a balanced fix would be. What good is making the enemy fleet jump slower really going to do in the grand scheme of play? You could take away antimatter supplies. I'm hesistant to do damage with this upgrade, but I could see it working.

With jump degradation, it's more.....can this ability really be made that good without going OP? I'm sure there's some way to make this ability good, but I just don't know what that is where the game will stay balanced.

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Deceiver_0
Ascension
Join Date 04/2008
+4
Reply #259 July 14, 2009 11:34:39 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

siege frigs..

nay for all except ship slots which could be 10-12.

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Deceiver_0
charon2112
Join Date 02/2009
+62
Reply #260 July 14, 2009 11:34:59 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Umm, just a comment.  Game development is not a democracy.  I truly hope that Ironclad only gives these suggestions a passing glance, but they ultimately should make the game that they want to make.  Some people will love it, and some won't.  But the last thing the SINS makers should do is change the game based on a forum vote.  By taking everyones suggestions and trying to make a game that pleases everyone, they will end up with a broken mess of a game. 

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #261 July 14, 2009 11:40:04 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

With jump degradation, it's more.....can this ability really be made that good without going OP? I'm sure there's some way to make this ability good, but I just don't know what that is where the game will stay balanced.

I suggested a way to make it a tactically interesting ability. Maybe you can comment it if you don't have your own ideas?

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Deceiver_0
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
+77
Reply #262 July 14, 2009 11:49:08 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

First, mobile phase detection is nigh useless with awesome phase detection researches in the empire tech tree. Needs a buff:

- increases phase jump chargeup rate for all enemy ships phase jumping into and out of the gravwell by 100%. Does not stack with PJIs.

Second, Jump degradation should do one of mentioned below:

- Take 20% AM off incoming ships (good idea - yay)

- impose a 100% movement speed and acceleration penalty (game wise - it would cut speed and accel by half) for 20-30 seconds on enemy ships that arrive at the gravwell.

- reduce armor by 4 (or increase incoming damage by 15%) on arriving enemy ships for 40-60sec.

Personally, I like the movement speed debuff.

I like it. I guess what decides it for me is which one would be the easiest for the devs to program. Agreed firsrt buff. I like antimatter suggestion. Only suggestion I don't like is the armor reduction. Don't think the speed/accel thing would do enough. Up it to 1 min.

 My personal suggestion would PROBABLY be to disable passive regeneration on ships that jump into the system...for say.....30 sec to 2 min. Somewhere in that range. Kinda just hit me recently.

@Charon

I'm pretty sure they only look at this with passing glance, although I think the stuff that sticks out to them is when the voice of the community is sounding in unison and loudly. The one thing I think this thread may do is fix repulse. The community is in agreement that it's broken. Most vets I know have said "there is no counter to repulse". I don't want the ability to go, and I don't think anyone else does. But FINALLY, people will be forced to use repulse conservatively and strategically....not abuse it consistently as a leg to stand on.

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Deceiver_0
Diplominator
Join Date 02/2008
0
Reply #263 July 14, 2009 1:32:09 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Raging Amish,
reply 12

First, mobile phase detection is nigh useless with awesome phase detection researches in the empire tech tree. Needs a buff:

- increases phase jump chargeup rate for all enemy ships phase jumping into and out of the gravwell by 100%. Does not stack with PJIs.

Second, Jump degradation should do one of mentioned below:

- Take 20% AM off incoming ships (good idea - yay)

- impose a 100% movement speed and acceleration penalty (game wise - it would cut speed and accel by half) for 20-30 seconds on enemy ships that arrive at the gravwell.

- reduce armor by 4 (or increase incoming damage by 15%) on arriving enemy ships for 40-60sec.

Personally, I like the movement speed debuff.
I like it. I guess what decides it for me is which one would be the easiest for the devs to program. Agreed firsrt buff. I like antimatter suggestion. Only suggestion I don't like is the armor reduction. Don't think the speed/accel thing would do enough. Up it to 1 min.

 My personal suggestion would PROBABLY be to disable passive regeneration on ships that jump into the system...for say.....30 sec to 2 min. Somewhere in that range. Kinda just hit me recently.

@Charon

I'm pretty sure they only look at this with passing glance, although I think the stuff that sticks out to them is when the voice of the community is sounding in unison and loudly. The one thing I think this thread may do is fix repulse. The community is in agreement that it's broken. Most vets I know have said "there is no counter to repulse". I don't want the ability to go, and I don't think anyone else does. But FINALLY, people will be forced to use repulse conservatively and strategically....not abuse it consistently as a leg to stand on.

 

Passive Regeneration disability would be nice. Not powerful enough to be broken, but annoying enough that you'll notice it.

 

Increasing the chance that phase missiles will penetrate shields might also be an appropriately Vasari debuff, and it wouldn't make the missile turret upgrade redundant on worlds covered by both turrets and an overseer. It would actually complement them!

 

Whatever happens, don't cut the phase speed debuff. I actually put overseers on front-line worlds and use the ability to give me more time to shift defenders around when a big force comes in.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
+42
Reply #264 July 14, 2009 1:42:02 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm pretty sure they only look at this with passing glance,

That's what this thread is designed to do. Hence the colors, a dev may jsut scroll down the list, see a lot of greens and/or reds and think to himself "Man a lot of people seem to think this idea will improve the game, maybe we'll give it a shot" or "I was considering changing that but it seems that might upset and alienate a good deal of people, maybe I shuold think of a different way".

Also a Dev may look down the list and think "hey thats not a bad idea". Ironclad isn't a huge company, which is why they like customer feedback to help them improve things when they feels its needed. The current state of repulse IS a great example. It's true that there are plenty of complaints over this and that, but I feel at the core the community wants the game to be perfect, and in my opinion its close.

But for me, the way I see it, they poured a lot of time and effort into making all these great units and aspects of the game, many of which go unused and unappreciated by the community, and many suggestions (like things for the Domina and the Overseer) are small things that could improve the units and increase their usage. I know that had I created a game like this, I would certainly want all the units to be useful and appreciated.

@Raging Amish

thanks for the input, it'll take me little time to get all that up, but I'm sure I'll find it soon.

My personal suggestion would PROBABLY be to disable passive regeneration on ships that jump into the system...for say.....30 sec to 2 min. Somewhere in that range. Kinda just hit me recently.

BTW this is a great idea.

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Deceiver_0
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #265 July 14, 2009 1:54:43 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think I should say one more thing. Deceiver, love the thread. I hope the Devs read every word of it.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #266 July 14, 2009 8:20:44 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'm reposting Raging Amish's 'ballot' so its easier to read (no word wrap??), he brings up a lot of good points. On the next update I'll be including a topic for increasing cooldown time on repulse and a few extra ideas for improvement of Jump Degradation so keep an eye out for them!

Oh and

@Diplominator

I'd like to get your vote on things when you have the time.

RAGING'S RANT


SIEGE FRIGATES

Be very careful for what you ask for with Seige Frigates. They used to cost 5 ship slots per unit when the game came out. That was hell, and I was glad to see these knocked up to 14 ship slots when they made the fix. These ships need to be frail. They need to be a risk to buy. Planets are the most precious resource in this game. Making the ship that takes them too powerful in any way shape or form can ruin this game. 14 ship slots is a bit excessive I agree, but I do not support the idea of going below 12. I hesitate with buffing the ship itself and lowering the ship slots. If anything is going to change, only do one or the other. Hopefully, the only change is the number of ship slots. IF THE ONLY CHANGE is the # of ship slots, then yes, 10 ship slots is ok.

 

Also, remember, the AI loves the seige frigate. Making the ship that the AI loves more powerful may not break the bank for online play, but it could frustrate a lot of single player people who all of sudden see the seige frigate armada coming their way.

 

Very touchy issue. Be careful with what's changed here.


SEREVUN OVERSEER

   
The ship is odd, I admit. It's not that the ship has no role, and actually, I do use it. This is the best ship in the game for countering anyone who goes straight for your capital ships. You can just randomly add 250 health to ur ship and give it armor. 6-8 of these will keep your cap (egg most likely) alive indefinitely if you micro it right. You could go a couple ways with affecting ships jumping into system. Something along the lines of taking awaytimatter or disabling abilities wouldn't be bad, but a % damage seems a bit too strong for a support cruiser.

SKAROVAS ENFORCER

   
JJ basically covered it all in his other thread. HC clash fests is probably the only rock on rock battle that I support, because you know what? Sometimes I just don't want to make bombers. This can't be buffed TOO much, but it should definitely compare to its TEC and Advent counterparts. Should be the middle man for HP and Shields in the grand scheme. TEC = worst shields, best health. Advent = worst health, best shields. Vasari = middle man. That's the theme. Keep it so that the overall combined health/shields is the same. Arguably, if this ship didn't have reintegration, I'd say 24 dps would be appropriate as opposed to 20. Since it does, make it 21.6. That's a 10% dps nerf if you use the Kodiak 1.8 dps per ship slot ratio.

The Wave Upgrade Tree needs to be knocked down to tier 2,4, and 5 respectively instead of 4,5,7. This will compare with the TEC autocannon upgrades and the Advent Plasma Upgrades.

DOMINA SUBJUGATORS

     

This ship doesn't get used online yes, but the problem is the Guardian, not this ship. EVEN IF the guardian has repulse brought into line, the shield bubble is still hands down better than than anything the subjagator could bring in the first hour of game play. Late game this ship should be used. Problem is this is a lot like the Cielo command cruiser and subverter. You need a big fleet for this to be out and about and effective.

 

This isn't for rush maps, so I don't think the online community should be pushing for a buff considering online maps (99% of the time) are PURE rush maps. Their job is pretty clear. It's a tier 5 ship with a tier 6 ability that you should get once you have an econ that supports a fleet of appropriate size that would actually need this ship and what it offers.

CARRIER CLASS CAPITAL SHIPS

       
TBH I wasn't aware that this ship class was a problem. Considering this class brings a CAPITAL Ship with it, I didn't see it as a problem. If anything, I found the Skinatra (Vasari Cap) to be exceptionally weak compared to its brethren. It does 24 dps base, when the sova does 36 and the halcyon does....ok...don't remember that one off the top of my head.

 

This is hard to balance, because you have a ship that's getting progressively stronger, and then it has the odd quirk of a growing number of SC. That makes re-balancing this class a little fuzzy.

LIGHT FRIGATES

          
Light frigs can't be too strong. They are available from the beginning. You make this ship too strong, you'll just have a new trend: light frigate rushing. BAD BAD BAD.

REPULSE:

        
Repulse needs 1 of 2 fixes. The second option isn't here. One is to increase the antimatter used per second. I like that personally, but a second option is to increase the cooldown time to say 30 sec to a min. Those are the best choices. I like the ability for the record. I just don't like that people can abuse it insanely.

MISSILE BARRAGE:

          
No comments here. Ability is counterable, but should be more easily counterable. Phase out Hull, Ion Bolt, Magnetize, Antimatter Bomb, Reverie could all be increased in range to outrange MB.        

CARRIERS:

I have no idea how to balance this, but the problem is flak killing them too fast. How this should be fixed, I don't know, but making the SC stronger could be bad.

SCOUTS:


These little suckers are fine by me. Vasari scouts don't compare to TEC and Advent, so they need a slight fix.

ILLUMINATORS:

         
I like Illums. Making each beam do 33% would fit the nature of the ship. I strongly disagree with everyone who says changing cost of ships will do anything. I'm sorry, but if they're within 25% of each other in total cost (which is fuzzy cause of the 500 cred/100 resource ratio which isn't constant and the fact that you sell resources at 1/2 price to the black market) In the grand scheme, if the costs are relatively close, they're fine in my book. If the Illum's cost goes up, then so should Assailants and LRMS.

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Deceiver_0
Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #267 July 15, 2009 12:12:30 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Oh, I had a thought for something that may or may not deserve to be mentioned on this thread. It's about Missile Barrage.

For the record, I think MB is fine. Each race can counter it with another capital ship ability. TEC have Ion bolt on the Akkan and Magnetize on the Dunov. Advent has Antimatter bomb on the Radiance and Reverie on the Revelation. Vasari, however, has only phase out hull on the Marauder. I would say the Devastator is a counter, but the anti-antimatter ability on it just doesn't do enough to be considered a counter to MB.

Vasari need a second option against MB. Let's face it. Not every map favors buying a marauder. Outside of myself and Ascension, I don't think I've ever seen anyone use it.

A simple option would be to just add the "disable ability" clause to a current capital ship ability on the Vasari side.

Can't put it on the desolator. It's already on the marauder. Putting it on the Egg (probably gravity bomb or nanite ability) would just put the egg over the top and make it too damn powerful.

The way I see it, there are two options:

1. Make the third ability on the Battleship also disable abilities on ships it touches.

2. Rename Scramble Bombers something like "Tactical Bombers" or "Subversive Bombers", and have it be that when they attack a target they disable it's abilities much like magnetize would. Or have them be "Suicide Bombers", or "EMP Bombers" so they're essentially Kamakaze bombers that sacrifice themselves to disable the enemy ship's abilities.

I like option 2 better. Scramble bombers would finally have a purpose, and you might actually start seeing the carrier cap for the Vasari.

 

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N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
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Reply #268 July 15, 2009 12:31:32 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would say the Devastator is a counter, but the anti-antimatter ability on it just doesn't do enough to be considered a counter to MB.
Someone found out that there's a mistake in the disruptive strikes' entity file.
Devs wrote BEAM instead of FLASHBEAM so that disruptive strikes works only on wave shots, not beam shots.

When it's fixed (if it really is a bug, i'm not 100% sure but I don't think I ever saw disruptive strikes work on beam hits),  dis. strikes should get noticeably better and more reliable (more shots = more steady debuff application). Then maybe it will become a decent counter to MB.
If only 2/3 disruptive strikes with 2/3 surge could drop, say, a level 7 Marza with half AM pool upgrades done below 150 AM in below 45 seconds, I would call it a counter. It would force the Marza player to make a decision - MB now or MB never.

It's all explained here in the beta feedback forum.
As a side note, if this thing is fixed (and disruptive strikes is not nerfed too much back to compensate the big increase in shots fired) then I will officially have no more quarrel with MB.
... well, maybe Volatile Nanites could use a splash radius increase (it's 2000 initial radius, 1000 radius for ships blowing up. I'd like it to be 3000ish and 1500 respectively. And don't you freakin' dare call it imba when that stupid MB is still out there dealing a million DPS with one click and fancy artwork ).
Damn I'm touching cap abilities again. Wrong way ;O.

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #269 July 15, 2009 3:43:18 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I'd agree that Vasari need a second interrupt.  I think most people think phase missile swarm is lackluster on the Vulkoras; how about giving it an interrupt effect, ending any channeling abilities on affected units?  It would be area of effect, but given its rather short range compared to other interrupts this would probably be acceptable.

 

Personally, my gripe with missile barrage is that there are no comparable abilities among any other capital ships in the game.  Either we need more abilities like missile barrage, or missile barrage needs to be changed to be more in line with what other factions have.  It's just not right for it to be the sole exception.

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Raging Amish
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #270 July 15, 2009 4:47:00 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Actually, missile barrage helps set the TEC apart imo. Each race has abilities that are so powerful, and they're the only race to get it.

Advent: Shield Regen (Very Underrated), Colonize (So Underrated), Provoke Hysteria, Telekinetic Push (Can shove entire armadas of strikecraft), Vertigo (Quite underrated, at level 3 it lowers enemy dps by 60%)

Vasari: Nanite Disassembler, Gravity Bomb, Planet Drain (all on one ship mind you), Volatile Nanites, Desolator Seige abilities (Better than Marza Overall)

TEC: MB (obviously), Embargo, Armistice (If I've used it on you, you get why it's strong), All Abilities on Dunov are good, Raze Planet

That's just a short run down of capital ship abilities. MB is pretty strong and straight to the point yes. But the devs felt the need to lower the dps of the abilitiy so you could get away from it.

Could it use a slight fix? I dunno, maybe. There are counters, so it's not broken, but without those counters you're screwed, so I dunno. I will say I'm appalled that it's range is so large. Reminds me of the days of Malice + Cleansing Brilliance (Before Target # got limited to 8,16,24)

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #271 July 15, 2009 6:36:34 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Vasari: Nanite Disassembler, Gravity Bomb, Planet Drain (all on one ship mind you), Volatile Nanites, Desolator Seige abilities (Better than Marza Overall)

I don't know how you can compare this to Marza.

Nanites are the only really badass ability Vasari have. I am not sure how you want to compare these to the Mb though.
Except nano, there's nothing anywhere near MB that the Vasari can throw.
Grav bomb? Slow down for 15 seconds or stop the enemy from phase jumping for 15 seconds. POWERFUUULLLL ;O ? No. Annoying, yes.
Planet Drain. For a level 6 ability it is mediocre. Yes, 1800 damage to planet. But it's a lvl6 ability on a ship that otherwise sucks at attacking planets. It is channeled, lasts 45 seconds (methinks) and, for goodness sake, bombarding the planet won't win you the game. Wiping the enemy fleet will. So it's not an imba ability but yet another screwup that makes everybody choose the EGG.
Volatile Nanites suck. Making them work requires a very good DPS on your side and a sucker on the receiving end. In other words:
If the victim is loser enough not to disperse his ships when they get nanites, he might actually take an extra 10k damage and lose a few extra ships. That said, if the same loser meets a Marza, he will get completely wiped, regardless of what he brought. Comparing Volatile nanites to MB is a FAIL.
Desolator. Lol. Marza can do a little less to planets, I agree, but has five times the potential of vulkoras when it comes to combat.

So - no, seriously. Vasari have no uber abilites. They have the EGG which is uber because it does everything decently and no other cap does it good enough to be worth getting above the egg.

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N3rull
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Reply #272 July 15, 2009 6:58:08 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Also, it is my personal request for us all to drop cap ship abilities in this thread. This is an bottomless can of worms, each the size of manhattan. 
If we are to bring cap ships to where they belong, a third of the abilities now present should be tweaked or completely reworked. This is a topic for a whole new thread (blinks at Deceiver) but starting it here would totally mess the current thread.

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EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
+25
Reply #273 July 15, 2009 7:52:55 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting N3rull,
reply 22
Also, it is my personal request for us all to drop cap ship abilities in this thread. This is an bottomless can of worms, each the size of manhattan. 
If we are to bring cap ships to where they belong, a third of the abilities now present should be tweaked or completely reworked. This is a topic for a whole new thread (blinks at Deceiver) but starting it here would totally mess the current thread.

100% agree.

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Deceiver_0
Howdidudothat
Join Date 04/2008
+34
Reply #274 July 15, 2009 9:28:15 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Look at my earlier post deciever.  For everything that I didn't vote Yay for, I voted nay.

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crashmatusow
Join Date 02/2009
+5
Reply #275 July 15, 2009 11:04:35 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

have to say i agree with raging on...pretty much all of his suggestions actually, best set i've heard so far.

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