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Patch Stat Changes Forum [NEW TOPIC: Adjudicators 8/25/09]!!

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #226 July 11, 2009 7:36:27 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

 

Okay, who uses fighters (...) Secondly, fighters are so fast that moving them into the area of effect of repair cloud is trivial. I do it all the time.
We're talking about bombers. Focus please. I'm saying Vasari bombers are way below other factions as a main starbase killer. That's one of the reasons I believe Orky needs a buff as the Vasari dedicated structure cracker. You landed off topic.

What's tier 1 research? I wasn't referring to any research in that post.

Being lower tier in warfare research is important, particularly for Vasari who are actually better of with 3 empire labs first (improved salvaging, terran lockdown, colonizations and Enslaved Labour). Advent can field carriers faster. It has an effect.

Partly out of curiousity to do with our discussion here, I did some isolated testing of fighter vs flaks
Would you mind sharing the exact situation? What you put againt what, how and in what numbers.
I say that my findings are totally different and it will be just as correct as your statement.

They both die to flak virtually at the same speed
What does this mean? If Vasari bombers die as fast as Advent bombers then it is completely fouled up, because they're fewer and rebuild slower.

Saying "TEC has a stronger economy" and "TEC has cheaper units" are two completely different things.
That's why I said cheaper production. It was unfortunate, yeah, but I was already late and forgot to rephrase it.

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Deceiver_0
Howdidudothat
Join Date 04/2008
+34
Reply #227 July 11, 2009 12:34:31 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Siege - Yay to reducing fleet supply, resource cost, and fixes to AI targeting.  Everything else nay.

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Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #228 July 11, 2009 4:00:20 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

May I add the strikecraft longevity against flak is hugely effected by behavior- i.e setting strikecraft to hold position behavior allows them to live longer against flak frigates, but requires more micro to be effective attackers.

While this is true, in practice people don't use hole position when flaks are around.  In fact, the opposite is true; they micro them to avoid staying near the flaks.

We're talking about bombers. Focus please. I'm saying Vasari bombers are way below other factions as a main starbase killer. That's one of the reasons I believe Orky needs a buff as the Vasari dedicated structure cracker. You landed off topic.

Sorry, should have said "strike craft".   As starbase killers, Vasari bombers rock.  The total hit points in a bomber squadron is only slightly lower than that of Advent (and offset by the fact that Vasari get armour upgrades earlier and more of them), and their damage with phase missiles is superb.

 

Vasari bombers die as fast as Advent bombers then it is completely fouled up, because they're fewer and rebuild slower.

But they have more health.  Calculate the total hit points of the smaller but tougher squad and it's almost identicle to the Advent.  The Advent advantage is extremely tiny.  Similarly, it takes longer to produce a new fighter, but each new fighter produced is tougher.  The end result was that they were approximately equal in the test.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #229 July 11, 2009 6:30:23 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Darvin3,
reply 3
Sorry, should have said "strike craft".   As starbase killers, Vasari bombers rock.  The total hit points in a bomber squadron is only slightly lower than that of Advent (and offset by the fact that Vasari get armour upgrades earlier and more of them), and their damage with phase missiles is superb.


But they have more health.  Calculate the total hit points of the smaller but tougher squad and it's almost identicle to the Advent.  The Advent advantage is extremely tiny.  Similarly, it takes longer to produce a new fighter, but each new fighter produced is tougher.  The end result was that they were approximately equal in the test.

Flak frigates and fighters don't deal exactly enough damage to kill a bomber and then fire at other targets.
When a wave of bombers flies by a line of flaks, it will not be that all bombers take exactly X damage, where X is total damage dealt divided by number of bombers.
When bombers come between anti-strikecraft weapons, those weapons fire at their closest target. When 30 bombers approach a horde of flaks, 5-7 out of them will receive more than enough to wipe them out threefold, just because they happened to be those closest ones for more than one frigate. Just as well, when 90 bombers are passing the same blob of flaks, it will not be 15-21 bombers shot down, respectively. It will still be 5-7, maybe 10; simply because flaks don't care how DEEP the bomber horde is, they fire at the first ships in the blob.
That's the problem. When Vasari bombers approach for bombing, 5 of them will get damaged for 150% of their life. When Advent bombers arrive, 7 of them will get hit for 300% their life - not 15 of them.

In other words, maybe a bit less confusing:
Flaks don't do the "they are more numerous but weaker, so let's shoot more at once for less damage per ship" kind of thinking you seem to expect of them. They simply overkill the closest target.
It doesn't matter if the bombers have 150 life and 5 armor or 45 life and 2 armor. They are still one-shotted if the flak/fighter defense is big enough.
The same goes for a blob of 150 assailants on autoattack. It does not matter if they fight 50 HCs or 400 scouts. They still one-shot whatever they autotarget, be it a Kodiak or a scout frig. They don't care that they are dealing 857% more damage than they need to wipe their target, they just autoattack the closest one.
That logic goes for flak frigs and fighters and it is that logic that screws Vasari strike craft.
But a loss of one Advent bomber is no loss - Advent have more of them and rebuild them faster - , whilst a loss of one Vasari bomber is crippling, cause it rebuilds slowly, takes 30% of the squadrons firepower with it AND encourages the remaining two bombers to be more properly focused by the flaks, meaning even more casualties later.

Ehh... I'm tired. Goodnight.

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Deceiver_0
Quietscheente
Join Date 06/2008
0
Reply #230 July 12, 2009 1:44:47 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hi there! I've been losely following the forums and all the balance discussions for a long time already but never bothered replying or anything. But this night I was particularly bored and asking myself why you guys don't just create a mod with all the changes you want. Afterall, most of the changes you propose are relatively simple. I know an official patch would be much better, but all you really need is a mod spawned from this thread and possibly some advertising on ico so everyone will use it.

I actually only wanted to tell you that... but then I figured, what the heck, im so bored, I'll just do it now. So this is what I did within an hour or three (including some tesing):

http://www.filefront.com/14022461/entrenchment%201.04%20preview%20mod.rar

all changes:

Illuminator:
hp: 620 -> 520
armor: 2 -> 1

Guardian:
repulse cooldown: 8sec -> 20sec
am cost: 20 -> 40

Akkan:
colonize free extractor: 0,1,2 -> 1,2,3
(wondering if this can cause a crash if there area only 2 extractors available)

Evacuator:
colonize build speed: 20% -> 50%, 65%, 80% (durations unchanged)

Skirmisher:
dps: 10,5 -> 11,5

light frigates:
acceleration: + 100% (200 -> 400, for comparison lrm are at 150)
turn speed: + 100% (now twice as high as lrm)
damage against support cruisers: 150% -> 200%

Reintegration: (skirmisher+enforcer)
autocast changed to activate at 80% health instead of 50%
cooldown: 75sec -> 180sec (because I don't want it to be op in fights of small fleets, for example a few skirmishers fighting for neutrals)
duration halfed, hp per sec doubled
(enforcer with level 2 reintegration heals 720 over 20sec, 3min cooldown)

Enforcer:
dps: 20 -> 22
wave weapon upgrades: cost, research time, lab requirements changed to values of level 2,3,5 (from 4,5,7; position on research screen not changed because it doesn't matter)

Siege Frigates:
Supplies used: 14 -> 10

Overseer, Subverter. Subjugator, Hoshiko, Cielo: (sorry, I can't mod targetting)
turn speed doubled (now same as lrm)

Overseer:
jump degradation: -0.5 -> -0.7 (not sure if this means speed is reduced by 70%, didn't test)

Skirantra Carrier:
Scramble Bombers: (can't make this spawn 2 squads at once)
duration: 120sec ->60sec
cooldown: 60,50,40 -> 20,15,10

Capital Carriers:
base squads: 2 -> 3
squads per level: 0.5 -> 0.8 (10 squads at lvl 10)

Carrier Frigates:
antimatter regeneration increased: 0.4/sec -> 0.5 for tec and vas; 0.6 -> 0.7 for advent

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
Join Date 12/2008
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Reply #231 July 12, 2009 2:06:10 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

why you guys don't just create a mod with all the changes you want.

I think it's largely because, as you can see here, everybody wants different changes, and rather than try and circulate several different mods by different people with different changes, we would all rather have the actual game be adjusted by the developers. There a few other reasons like:

1) Different people may favor certain races in their mods, where as the developers are the only ones who truly have the best interest of the entire game in mind, and are the only ones who can truly be trusted to create a more balanced version of the game.

2) Having multiple mods will further divide the online community (which is currently divided amongst regular sins and entrenchment) making games even more difficult to find, host and play.

3) Many people who play the game on-line don't visit the forums with much frequency (or at all) and might be left out. Having a popular game mod could potentially ostracize a portion of the MP community into leaving. I think everyone can agree that this games MP needs more active players.

That being said, many of the changes in your mod are topics that have been discussed on this thread, shall I put you down for having voted for those changes?

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Deceiver_0
Darvin3
Join Date 12/2008
+177
Reply #232 July 12, 2009 2:07:50 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

When bombers come between anti-strikecraft weapons, those weapons fire at their closest target. When 30 bombers approach a horde of flaks, 5-7 out of them will receive more than enough to wipe them out threefold, just because they happened to be those closest ones for more than one frigate. Just as well, when 90 bombers are passing the same blob of flaks, it will not be 15-21 bombers shot

Flak frigates have multiple guns, each facing different directions.  A single flak frigate cannot aim all its guns at one target.  Yes, on the first wave I plainly saw the "let's overkill one target" mentality as one squad took the brunt of the damage, but there are two other important things that happened.  First of all, the "overkill" wasn't directed towards an individual fighter, but rather the entire squad.  Secondly, after the first volley ripped a squad up, the other squads were attacked fairly evenly, so the behavior didn't continue for very long.

Comparing flak targeting behavior against fighters to lrf targeting behavior against frigates is groundless.  LRF are forward-shooting ships, while flaks shoot in multiple directions.  Frigates line up in front of you, fighters do passes and maneuver around you.  Secondly, unless you could somehow magically stack up those lrf starcraft style, they would be sufficiently well-spaced that they wouldn't all pick the same targets.

 

In any case, I still stand by my results and methodology.  Put the flaks in a fleet and moved them to the center of an empty grav well.  Warp in the carriers, and start the clock the moment the first shot is fired.  The squads were considered "dead" when they were all simultaneously reduced below 20% strength.  You can't just say I fouled up my tests because you disagree with the results.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
Join Date 10/2008
+42
Reply #233 July 12, 2009 6:39:02 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Comparing flak targeting behavior against fighters to lrf targeting behavior against frigates is groundless
It is not. Each flak frigate is in fact like four LRFs targetting in different directions, while the strikecraft are just blobs of frigates in their aquisition hemisphere. When it's fighters they change dynamically.
When it's bombers, they don't.
When it's MICROED bombers the Vasari are even more screwed, because bombers form a blob and don't spread out, exposing only the outer layer for intense focus fire from flaks.

You can't just say I fouled up my tests because you disagree with the results.
As I have seen your test results, you tested fighters, not bombers. So I do say that your test is off topic even though I agree with the results.

I can post ten reasons why it all makes a big difference (I don't have a grudge with vasari fighters at all, it is about bombers specifically), but what the hell.
You don't care anyway.

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
Join Date 05/2008
+8
Reply #234 July 12, 2009 6:55:28 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver, I'd like to cast my vote for the other "almost useless" frigate, the LF.

LIGHT FRIGATES

           Buff Light Frigates-

                        Increase Damage?: Yes (+20%)

                        Increase Damage bonus to armor type?: Yes

                        Increase Hp/Shields/Armor?: Yes (+10%)
         
                        Increase ability range?: Yes
                            
                        Increase firing arc?: No
                            
                        Increase turn speed?: Yes

            Tweak Targeting AI to favor support cruisers?: Yes

            Nerf Counters-

                          Decrease LRF Damage?: Yes (-10%)
                              
                          Increase resource cost?: No

Also,

I'd like to add why I choose the heavy armor type for the Siege Frigates. To counter Siege Frigates we need a ship capable of catching up to them and because Siege Frigs are available early we need a ship tier 0-2, so we are limited by 4 choices. Fighters, Bombers, Scouts & Light Frigs.

- Fighters and Scouts can do the job for sure, but they do it a little too well (+100% vs. light armor). The goal is to increase the Siege Frig's survivability. So light armor is out of the question.

- Bombers can also do the job, but that would be unfair to TEC because they could not rely on their Carrier Cruisers to protect them early on because they are tier 3. Forcing TEC players to focus an hangar bays. So its a possibility, but lets look at the Light Frigs.

- Light Frigs are available at the start, so anyone trying to "spam" siege frigs could be easily countered, it would also give more importance to the somewhat lonely LF and Light Frigs can't pass through a planet (like Strikecrafts) so that would also help with the survivability of the Siege Frigs. I feel that strikecrafts can reach Siege Frigates way to fast, their speed is second to none and their ability to pass through a planet makes them way too dangerous for Siege Frigs.

Well, thats why a think heavy armor is the way to go, I just thought I'd share why I chose heavy armor for SF.

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Deceiver_0
N3rull
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Reply #235 July 12, 2009 7:12:53 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Increase Damage bonus to armor type?:
Somebody explain this to me anyway.
Everybody's sayin' yay or nay, but I suppose saying it makes sense only when we specify against WHICH armor type we want the damage boosted?

I for one think that Light frigs should have their damage boosted generally, while LRFs should have their damage nerfed against everything they do not hard counter. So that they are no longer all-killers but specific counters.

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #236 July 12, 2009 9:06:16 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting N3rull,
reply 10

Increase Damage bonus to armor type?:Somebody explain this to me anyway.
Everybody's sayin' yay or nay, but I suppose saying it makes sense only when we specify against WHICH armor type we want the damage boosted?


I for one think that Light frigs should have their damage boosted generally, while LRFs should have their damage nerfed against everything they do not hard counter. So that they are no longer all-killers but specific counters.

Well, I assumed it was a 25% increase across the board (since its not specific). I believe this would make Light Frigs act more or less like a general purpose units instead of being highly specialized. But I could be wrong.

Deceiver, could you explain what you meant by Increase damage bonus to armor type?

I also agree with N3rull that LRM frigates should be highly specialized units (good at one thing only).

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #237 July 12, 2009 10:20:09 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I suppose I should clarify that, I meant it as a general increase in the bonus damage their weapons do to heavy armor, allowing them to kill cruisers more efficiently, as opposed to an increase in damage dealt to everything. With the amount of health carriers have, it requires a large group of LFs to focus fire on each individual carrier as they kite the grav wells. Making them more efficient cruiser killers will allow them to put some more hurt on opponents before the LFS are inevitably killed by lrms and HCs, without boosting their power against other unit types.

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
Join Date 05/2008
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Reply #238 July 12, 2009 11:34:23 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Deceiver_0,
reply 12
I suppose I should clarify that, I meant it as a general increase in the bonus damage their weapons do to heavy armor, allowing them to kill cruisers more efficiently, as opposed to an increase in damage dealt to everything. With the amount of health carriers have, it requires a large group of LFs to focus fire on each individual carrier as they kite the grav wells. Making them more efficient cruiser killers will allow them to put some more hurt on opponents before the LFS are inevitably killed by lrms and HCs, without boosting their power against other unit types.

OK, thanks.

Turning them into general purpose units with a +25% increased vs. all aramor type sounds appropriate, on the other hand a +50% vs. heavy armor also sounds good, so its a yes for me either way.

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Volt_Cruelerz
Join Date 06/2008
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Reply #239 July 12, 2009 3:14:02 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Perhaps a +25% versus everything, +40% versus heavies..

Common sense says these things should be massed and be a meat shield for the LRM's.  LF's ought to be a general fighter, good at just about everything...  Now, they are only used to take out support cruisers...

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
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Reply #240 July 12, 2009 4:11:27 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting Volt_Cruelerz,
reply 14
Perhaps a +25% versus everything, +40% versus heavies..

Common sense says these things should be massed and be a meat shield for the LRM's.  LF's ought to be a general fighter, good at just about everything...  Now, they are only used to take out support cruisers...

I am in complete agreement with you Volt.

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
Join Date 03/2008
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Reply #241 July 12, 2009 6:18:24 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I would just like to point out that all of thsi talk about imbalances and what needs to be fixed only became rampant under patches 1.02 and 1.03 entrenchment. Under 1.01 these issues we still present how ever they weren't weived as rampant problems as they are now for back then carriers could fillt he role they were supposed to fill and thus minimised the problems we are all talking about.

So lets all just eb honest and say it.

Ironclad You SCREWD up in 1.02 and 1.03 Time to under the harm done already. Time to roll back to 1.01 and star again from there. No shame in admiting you screwed up if you do the right thign and undo it. Continuing ont he present path is only obtination.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #242 July 12, 2009 7:23:15 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting EadTaes,
reply 16
I would just like to point out that all of thsi talk about imbalances and what needs to be fixed only became rampant under patches 1.02 and 1.03 entrenchment. Under 1.01 these issues we still present how ever they weren't weived as rampant problems as they are now for back then carriers could fillt he role they were supposed to fill and thus minimised the problems we are all talking about.

So lets all just eb honest and say it.

Ironclad You SCREWD up in 1.02 and 1.03 Time to under the harm done already. Time to roll back to 1.01 and star again from there. No shame in admiting you screwed up if you do the right thign and undo it. Continuing ont he present path is only obtination.

So you wanna go back to useless flaks?

I agree it needs to be toned back some, but not all the way.

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
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Reply #243 July 12, 2009 7:46:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Hell yeah Better has usless flak only then usless anythignt hat aint LRFs. You can always sart again working on that small problem by exploring a new avenue. The nerfs to carriers just fucked the dog like they say.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #244 July 12, 2009 7:52:06 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think they were on the right track but just overstepped and nerfed a bit too hard.

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Deceiver_0
EadTaes
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Reply #245 July 12, 2009 8:29:13 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I think they went way int he ball park and are now completely lost without a single clue were their at.

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Dargoon999
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Reply #246 July 12, 2009 9:14:28 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Quoting EadTaes,
reply 20
I think they went way int he ball park and are now completely lost without a single clue were their at.

I really dont think its that bad. They listen to us complaining about how everyone spammed carriers. So they deceided to buff flak and nerf carriers, nice in theory, but no so in practice. They could not have forseen that buffing flak could have such an amazing effect vs. strikecraft. So in theory, all they have to do is eliminate COMPLETELY the build penalty they applied to carrier cruisers. I think carriers should only have a build penalty of 50% when directly under attack, and nothing else. The speed reduction was necessary to prevent kiting and help LF catch up to them, so that was a good move on their part.

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Deceiver_0
Dargoon999
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Reply #247 July 12, 2009 9:18:47 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

Deceiver, please look at my reply #234, so you can add my vote for LF, thank you.

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MindsEye
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Reply #248 July 12, 2009 10:24:45 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

seige

nay

nay

nay

yay

nay

yay

nay

nay

 

 

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MindsEye
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Reply #249 July 12, 2009 11:13:25 PM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

I completely agree with darvin about the sc so far.I get tired of hearin about this so much too.I think the difference is pretty small between factions.Flak fire to sc is alot like running ilums back and forth thru another fleet.They just fire all at dif targets until its wore down.I see much more damages sc then just wiped out squads.In addition vasari dont have to fear a burst from a kol lik advent do.Also the difference between armor is 1 to 5.I think armor is a type of mitigation so this is a major advantage from focus firing for the vas.I would say vas prolly have better bombers and most dont use them because aussalting with a sb works better or they dont have too(nano+lrm).The fact that they can upgrade so easy(phase missile+armor+health) and that they can get healed just puts them on top.The only chance advent bombers have at being better is the raptures damage bonus.

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Deceiver_0
Deceiver_0
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Reply #250 July 13, 2009 12:39:51 AM
from Sins of a Solar Empire ForumsSins of a Solar Empire Forums

OK that makes sense, but none of the races units are exact equivalents, for every race 1 thing is stronger than others, why should strikecraft be any different? So even if Vasari bombers are stronger than the other races, why is that a problem?

The only chance advent bombers have at being better is the raptures damage bonus.

This statement makes me think that these races bombers are near equivalents, but one is slightly better than the other. Just like every other unit is supposed to be.

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