I play some teams who buy flag locks early, like levels 1 - 3.
I think this is a waste of money. 250 GP is important early when you're racing towards your 1500GPish item. Unless a specific flag is required for your strategy (short cooldown on TB), don't waste your money so early when gold is sparse.
A good time to start locking is when enemy buys priests. You invest 250GP to lock the middle flag in Cataract. This buys you the time to go farm the priests in another lane and earn back your gold. Flag lock allows you to hold two flags for effectively 0 cost.
I only flaglock in 3 situations...
1) When we are in giants/catapaults (or the opposition is) and we need to secure control of a spawner flag. COuld be our own, theirs or ever a side one like in leviathan.
2) In exile with the side health crystals. Lock the flag and the crystal remains yours long enough to fight off the attack.
3) Sometimes I will lock the back left gold mine flag in cateract if theres 3 or more players per team. If the enemy are showing great interest in recapturing it I might lock it, but often they leave it captured for some time so I just save money.
Ive seen some real silly flag locking. Like people locking the centre flag in cateract when were all still pretty low level. Thats a situation where I would definitly be saving for my equipment, or gold upgrades (which I seem to have to buy most games)
That's ok, I'm sure a good opponent is perfectly happy with owning the xp flag >90% of the time against you. But good for you! You'll have your few hundred gold!
Flag - 250GP
Spawns it guarantees - 1.5
XP per lane @ War Rank 1 = 33 XP
XP per lane @ War Rank 2+ = 46.2 XP
250 GP to guarantee that much XP over 45 secs is most probably not the most efficient use of that money, especially if you are at level 5 plus.
Now locks on portals/gold mines are different, but locking the XP flag or similar is most probably not an efficient use of money.
Locking a lane flag is also different, as this generally means you can go back and warp back into the lane.
CONCUR!
No, you use a flag lock to be able to hold a flag when you cannot anymore, acting as a reset. Any good team will fiercely fight over important flags. When the enemy finally gains an upperhand over your flag and you are pushed out, then you lock it. In 45 seconds, they don't get a free cap, round 2 starts. And your team is prepared again.
Locks give much more than 45 seconds worth of flag time when your team is actually putting an effort into defending the flag. I can see how you might think it's a waste of gold when flags are being capped back and forth in an uncoordinated match, but as soon as people play to a higher level, the team using flag locks will keep that flag nearly the entire game against a team who isn't using locks.
You only need one lock per couple minutes to keep a flag controlled when teams are even in combat. The benefit of the flag is a 44% difference in xp gained compared to the alternative and the warscore you get. XP required to level up increases arithmetically, not geometrically, which massively boosts the cumulative effect of xp. This means early game xp retains most of its worth even into endgame. A 44% difference means your whole team's levels are comparatively 2-3 higher than you would be by midgame and even more if it persists until lategame - we're talking on the order of 5 or even 6 levels here. It's about ~10% of a team's combined early game gold income, 5% by midgame, etc, and you get a huge level bonus.
Also, because of the power of flag locks defensively, you never ever want to lose your flag against a good opponent because it will be hell getting it back. This makes them even more important. It's either use them or be abused by them. It seems most people around here just haven't been abused by them much.
I know this in anecdotal, but I played Cataract yesterday, the other team had the flag in the middle a good 80% of the time until about war rank 7-8. They had on us 1 level, at about level 13. We actually were winning, when we started to reverse that trend. The guy who was Oak, was locking flags all over the place, he ended up the least levelled and crappiest equip. Fortunately for them after a 3 in row kill streak our TB dropped meaning gameover.
Locking flags is important, but continually locking a flag like in the middle of Cataract is most likely over the top and unnecessary, you cannot guard it, as it means you are out of a lane, losing the benefit of that extra XP. During the time you have locked it, you have only guaranteed yourself 1.5 waves.
Did you even read the usage I described? Locks are not for randomly spamming on flags. If the team you fought were only 1 level ahead then they were letting a bunch of xp go to waste in lanes. Think about it this way: if you had the flag instead of them, then instead of one level behind you'd be 2 or so levels ahead.
The flag is a pure 44% no matter where the xp is coming from and you get a lot more than 45 seconds out of one lock.
Yes I did and I replied with an anecdotal example, where one team was a locking and always fighting on the middle flag in Cataract. I was making the point that they spent so long fannying around with it, that they were not wailing on creeps in a lane, the creeps were dieing mostly to the towers. Therefore it was a waste of their time and gold.
Locks for me are situational. I don't play in organised teams, I, like most, players are playing in PUGs, usually full with new/bad players.
Me dropping locks on the flags is not worth it early game. I am already low on cash from having to buy cit upgrades (as most players seem to have problems grasping how good level 1 currency is).
Bonus points for using fanny as a noun.
You mean a verb, right?
[e digicons]:thumbsdown:[/e] for not knowing proper parts of speech.
Nouns... verbs... All of this nitpicking over "grammar" and "facts" just gets in the way of authentic human-to-human communication.
You can call it a verb if you like. I'm going to stick with noun. I invent my own truth.
That was either very tongue in cheek, or one of the worsgt things I've heard anyone ever say.
Truthiness
i latly played a game on cataract 2v2 in a cup. our enemy team was in a small disadvantage and started to lock flags, often the middle one. we managed to get more warrank controle and most of the time 2/3 of the middle flags. it lead into a destruction after some minutes because we could push our equipment more than them. i dont say logging a flag isnt usefull, but u shouldnt try too much.
as rule no°1 u can say in lategame
portal flag log > celebrity flag log > rest :/
early game i dont reccomend logs, midgame u can concider it, lategame when giants out, spam them on portals and celebrity for win.
just my 2 cents
"Celebrity" flag locks are the key.
So they used locks but you managed to control 2 of the 3 flags without locks. The only thing that says is:
- You were significantly better than them
- Flag locks do not automatically give you map control
There is no way of saying with anything resembling confidence that those locks were a major impact on their defeat. 6 locks is one piece of armor. That does not lead to a "destruction". You overestimate the amount of your income that goes to locks.
All this shows is that flag locks can be used badly and/or they don't make up for playing far worse than your opponent in other areas.
This thread is a slaughter of the English language. I think I'm missing a whole part of the game, "celebrity flag logging".
All jokes aside, the best flag to lock is the one in dispute and locking it before you have to go back to crystal, denying your enemy the chance to lock it.
***********************WARNING, ATTEMPT TO PLEASE ALL. LOOK AWAY!***********************
Both sides are correct in my humble opinion. The
term "advantage" can be applied to both explanations.
Scenario: Both opponents ( A, B ) have 100hp
A has the flag
A hp = 115
B hp = 100
A has an HP advantage of 15%
B has the flag
A hp = 100
B hp = 115
B has an HP advantage of 15%
This is one way of looking at an advantage, and it is correct.
The 15% number is correct only if both teams have the exact same stats,
and will fluctuate wildly in a real game. (It might not even be an advantage,
just a lesser disadvantage to hold the flag if other team has much better stats)
The other way to look at it is also correct. Let´s add dps
into the game, say 100dps equally on both sides.
Let´s also assume that enemies meet one on one until one die,
then the next enemy rushes in. (for simplicity)
A can kill first enemy and have 15hp left.
A can hurt second enemy down to 85hp before dying.
A did a total of 115hp damage and killed 115/100 = 1.15 enemies while holding the flag
A can deal a total of 100 damage to first enemy before dying.
A did a total of 100 damage and killed 100/115 = 0.87 enemies while NOT holding the flag
Now it should be simple enough to see that your advantage over the other team is about
1.15 / 0.87 = 1.32 => 32%
The 32% number is highly dependent on both teams having exactly the same stats, the
actual advantage will wary wildly in a real game. (It might not even be an advantage, just
a lesser disadvantage to hold the flag if other team has much better stats)
Both definitions are, in my honest opinion, acceptable. A group which talks about an
"advantage" just needs to agree on how they define the word.
It's a 32% change no matter what. The stats just determine the difference in terms of absolute hp.
Oh no, are we going BACK into that discussion?
Flag locks are absolutely brutal. I've played a lot of games where we only had priests, but were able to go into the enemy base in Cataract, lock a side portal, then teleport out. Spend 45 seconds doing other things, then come back, ignore the enemy DG that is no doubt waiting on the flag to cap it, then lock the flag again and port back out.
Our team was taking turns doing it, and while the enemy had one or two demigods sitting on the capped flag fending off the creeps coming out of the portal, we were able to easily push through other base entrances and win the game. We literally held that base flag through half the game, thanks to nothing other than capture locks.
Similar logic applies for valuable flags, such as celerity or experience flags. The thing is, controlling them gives you more benefits than just war rank points. For instance, let's say that you caplock the artifact shop flag in Leviathan and then port out. The enemy demigod will probably think that the main threat (i.e. you) is gone, so he'll start pushing towards your towers. At this point, have one of your teammates rush at him from the front. He'll take some damage and start running back to his towers, at which point he will have to pass through the flag. Then you port back to that flag, and BAM! Gank him. I've gotten so many kills this way (mostly over-eager Regulus'es that are hitting your towers from out of range with a smug expression on their face) that I'm basically refusing to play with anyone who does not use capture locks now.
Yes, you are absolutely right. By the way, I like the word "change" over "advantage".
Lieu-'s arguments are correct. The advantage is roughly x2 (~30%). It is not complicated math. I hope nobody doubts it.
"Software Developer" guy hyjacked the thread with his 15% nonsense, so we got off topic. Well placed locks are very useful, and I can think of a few worthwhile situations. It very highly depends on what is going on. I am sure we have all shared the feeling of the OP at some point, especially when we locked a flag and the enemy never went near it until after the lock was long gone.
I think a big question is: Do you buy a lock and another $250 item at the start or do you go for banded armor/scaled helm? You might hold the lane longer with the non-consumables, but if you lock and then teleport gank an enemy, you might just come out ahead. I would consider buying a lock at the start to be a risk vs. reward kind of thing. I have tried it both ways and usually feel my lock was under-effective, but I accept that it might just be the way I used it.
Should we buy one on our first shopping trip back to the store? Are we playing round-robin? Can we get a TP gank? Can we get a 2v1? Can I get my Speed Boots? I'll be watching to see if anybody is doing this well. Meanwhile, I usually get a lock at the second shopping trip and try to use it only when I am being pushed out of a lane, so I can regroup, charge up, go shopping or whatever and deprive the enemy of that time with the flag. If I have speed upgrades I can get back in short order.
One consideration is when you (and probably every body else) get some speed upgrades and you can lock flags and run back and forth quicky. At that point, more TP'ing around is happening and greater mobilty makes locking more useful. It also makes ganging up more effective as hiding behind towers doesn't work so well 2v1 any more. (midgame ~levels 8-12). You can lock a flag and join your teammate for the gank.
When the enemy sneaks in on Cataract and steals a portal and locks it just as Giants come out... well, that is very distracting to say the least. By then a lock is petty cash. Sneaking in before Giants and locking the gold flag is pesky too, but I am not sure it is an effective use of a DG until Catapaults start coming out to hurt the nearby towers. Somebody calculated ~+50 Gold benefit. Not sure they used the x2 concept we lame-brained over in this thread for that +50 calculation, but even without it, the DG could have been pushing the lanes, farming creeps, taking down towers, etc. When that happens to you, chances are one of your DGs is hitting the crystal or going shopping, so the portal flag is right there. A quick detour and an easy farming wave wins it back. It is not even really much of a detour if you are heading to the middle flag in line with that one anyway. Chances are they didn't knock down the four towers to get in there, so they also run the risk of getting tele-ganked if they are hanging around. They probably have some tower damage on themselves too. It is risky, but I have seen it pay off. I do it sometimes, but have been and have killed DGs engaged in that back sneak attack.
I played one on Leviathon where we were out-leveled, out-killed, out-golded, out-upgraded, pretty much everything but we killed more towers. I snuck in and took both of thier rear portals, one with a lock. We only had Catapaultasaurie against their Giants, probably like fourth wave, and took down their Cit for the win.
Anyway, I will be watching for effective use of locks. I think it is a great part of the game if used wisely.
-BratE9000
Once you have catapults, flaglocks become the jesus item that wins the game. Before cats, meh.
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