Ok, so one statement out of several happened to be ambiguous. It's not exactly the same as getting the hp from, say, an item as we all know. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the context of the discussion of relative hp did not include complications. I said that earlier in the thread even, just didn't repeat it every single post. "Same as getting 32% more hp" is true when it's an autoattack fight with constant dps. We use that for argument's sake and for the sake of comparing things on a level of abstraction, which is useful.

If one demigod relied on bursting the other down then it changes things. Demigod playstyles and abilities skew things. This doesn't affect the accuracy of saying you get 32.25% more relative hp, it just means you lose accuracy when converting it to other values like absolute hp, which you need when applying it to strategy choices. It's useful to regard the flag as being very similar to gaining an item that gives you 32% hp. And you keep in mind the context of the situation and what might skew it so you can figure out your strategy choices.

And as I said before, thinking of that 32% relative value doesn't stop you from at the same time thinking about it being +15% for me or my opponent. It's just more information, more ways to look at something. I believe limiting yourself to "base+15% just this" is less useful than adding to it.

Edit: You said no one thinks like that. Well, I find it pretty easy to and I'm sure others do as well.

Wow... Really, I mean wow. This is quite hilarious. Since apparently math is settled democratically in this thread I'm gonna vote for the 32.25% because that means that arithmatic still works and so our universe will continue to exist and not randomly blow up because people believe math is different.

To Lieu - You've made your point to everyone with a brain and willing to listen just let it rest you can't convince everyone.

Edit: +1 Karma for you...

I have won a lot of games because of flag locks through the ENTIRE game. Why must people come to the forums telling others how to play? L2P OP.

Lieu- is right. You 15% guys are hilarious.

Lieu - I love you man. What field are you in? We should play together again sometime.

The way I understand it is that if the enemy has the xp flag, they are getting 20% more experience than you , which is 44% worse than your situation would be if you had the xp flag instead.  

Im a software developer but i dont see that it makes me better for discuss it... whatever.

Basic maths are accepted loooong time ago on the thread, no one is questioning the reality of the 32% of difference between your hp and the opponent hp having a flag or having not a flag... i thought it was pretty clear.

The problem is that u say that becouse there is a gap of 32% between the 2 players HPs this is reflected on combat when this is not true, u are never going to fight with this handicap on real numbers, your real handicap, following the example is 2000 HP (no flag player) VS 2300 HP (flag player) so its 15% of combat advantage to the player that has the flag.

There are two concepts that are being mixed wrong here:

1.- The 32% gap between the HP pools of players changing the HP flag.

2.- The real advantage of combat that is 15%.

U never ever are going to have a real hp pool difference of 32% in combat lets say 600 HP, if the 2 players have 2000 HP, the idea of the combat advantage is about a +15% HP that goes from one player to another, 300 HP bonus that move from one player to other while a flag is captured, this is the only gap that u are going to see in combat, 300 HP more of the player that have the flag, the otherone still having his 2000 HP(no penalization at all, just not bonuses, this is the quid of the question, NO PENALIZATION JUST NOT BONUSES) while the other have 2300 so 300 HP more than the otherone.

U cant say that u are fighting with a handicap of 600, this is not real at all, u just can justificate it by thinking that your pre bonus of the flag was part of your base HP while it never has been, it was an EXTRA bonus that now u dont have.

A good example of the 32% gap is the bite of erebus(is not 32% is just for the example) he gets 300 HP and u loose 300 HP this is a 32% becouse this is the real losing/win hp ratio.

The mistake is to take variable bonus as base HP, u have a base hp(with items+base HP+whatever) and then u have extra variable bonus(flags+buffs+debuffs). This is base+variable bonus not all together, u are handicapped if your base is handicapped not if u dont have 1 of the 4 extra bonus that u can have, if your opponent have more extra bonus than u u are not handicapped he is buffed.

I'd rather spend the money on sorting my equipment out.

This is a difference between concepts, if u do not make distinction between base bonus and extra bonus u can see it as a 32%

If u make distinction between base bonus and extra bonus u can see it as a movement of bonifications +15% to who have the flag.

If i loose a flag i dont think i have -15% i think that my opponent now have the +15% becouse for me there is a clear line between base bonus and extra bonus.

Base bonus: The bonification that u have with all the items/base/artifacts, this is a static value (can vary but not because of opponents actions or if so not indefinitedly like debuffs)

Extra bonus: The bonification variable that u can get that is never static and is not part of the base bonus, it can change for map control or multiple other external reasons.

Did this thread just go back in time?

Leinadon (edit: and sinzer too), lets get down to the definition of "real combat advantage". There is the type of advantage that you may hold over your opponent at a single point in time. We'll call it advantage1 to be extra clear. This would be 15% and it's the deviation from an equal situation.

Then there is the type of advantage that an event has associated with it, we'll call it advantage2. This would be the "I bought an item and it gave me a 15% 'advantage', even though I'm still not winning". This is measured between two points in time. It's the change in advantage caused by something, and thus it's the advantage associated with that event. In fact, you would define advantage2 as being the difference between two different measurements of advantage1.

The flag very clearly has a 32% change of advantage associated with it. So, I guess we would say:

"After capping the flag from someone...

- I have a 15% advantage

- The flag gave me 32% advantage"

So then what people in this thread are saying would be the real combat advantage in owning the flag is 32%. I would argue that using the term real advantage for that purpose is completely acceptable.

You keep insisting the real advantage is 15% - that it's the advantage you have at that moment. But what everyone here is so obviously doing is evaluating what advantage is associated with the flag, and that measurement is between two points in time because capping the flag is an event.

So we say "The flag gives a 32% advantage - 32% is the effect it's having."

And then you come and say "But the real advantage is only 15%"

Two different meanings and grammar and context decides which one, not you. It's like going into a "This is my regulus build" thread and exclaiming that he is not actually building anything.

The type of advantage you are describing isn't even applicable to evaluating the total effect of the flag. What you describe is only the after, and what everyone is interested in is what the flag cap is changing (that's how we value events), which also depends on the before.

Edit: Maybe you would prefer to think of it as a 32% improvement. The flag improves your hp situation by 32%, but it doesn't mean you are winning.

Additionaly, when you get an item the 15% increase of a stat infers 15% improvent (or advantage).  The change of ownership of the flag has 2 events associated with it, 15% decrease & 15% improvement (usualy in a single state change), so they are still wrong! (basically they cannot state the 15% gain without stating the 15% loss that also occured).

LOL This thread was a very interesting read. to Lieu for suffering through all that nonsense.

I think there are flags worth capping early on, and some not. I don't think health/mana ones are worth a cap lock early, but XP or gold cap locks are definitely worth it, and gold mines usually pay for themselves. Then of course a cap lock in Exile is essential to holding the middle, and probably worth giving up an item to get a couple.

Liue, IS correct, I wish more people understood this. It's not liek flags sit in neutral EVER. They are yours or theirs. This is a > 30% difference. There is nothing to debate, it's simple math. If you don't understand you need to stop playing video games adn go and get that lobotomy.

It's not 30%. The math actually works out to be 1.15^2 advantage, not 1.15X2 advantage.