I play some teams who buy flag locks early, like levels 1 - 3.
I think this is a waste of money. 250 GP is important early when you're racing towards your 1500GPish item. Unless a specific flag is required for your strategy (short cooldown on TB), don't waste your money so early when gold is sparse.
A good time to start locking is when enemy buys priests. You invest 250GP to lock the middle flag in Cataract. This buys you the time to go farm the priests in another lane and earn back your gold. Flag lock allows you to hold two flags for effectively 0 cost.
Ok, so one statement out of several happened to be ambiguous. It's not exactly the same as getting the hp from, say, an item as we all know. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the context of the discussion of relative hp did not include complications. I said that earlier in the thread even, just didn't repeat it every single post. "Same as getting 32% more hp" is true when it's an autoattack fight with constant dps. We use that for argument's sake and for the sake of comparing things on a level of abstraction, which is useful.
If one demigod relied on bursting the other down then it changes things. Demigod playstyles and abilities skew things. This doesn't affect the accuracy of saying you get 32.25% more relative hp, it just means you lose accuracy when converting it to other values like absolute hp, which you need when applying it to strategy choices. It's useful to regard the flag as being very similar to gaining an item that gives you 32% hp. And you keep in mind the context of the situation and what might skew it so you can figure out your strategy choices.
And as I said before, thinking of that 32% relative value doesn't stop you from at the same time thinking about it being +15% for me or my opponent. It's just more information, more ways to look at something. I believe limiting yourself to "base+15% just this" is less useful than adding to it.
Edit: You said no one thinks like that. Well, I find it pretty easy to and I'm sure others do as well.
Ok, I'll kinda throw my hat in here. Assume both demigods have 2k base hp and both have a 15% health flag. So, it's 2300 hp vs 2300 hp. So, all else being equal, they'll kill each other.
Now, let's say Demigod A steals the flag from Demigod B. So, A = 2600 hp and B = 2000 hp. So, A goes from a 0% advantage in health to a 30% advantage in health.
I hope that works, since it starts off even and the maths should be easy. (I know that introducing another health flag into the equation throws it off the exact percentage from 32%, but it was the easiest way to make things equal at the start).
Wow... Really, I mean wow. This is quite hilarious. Since apparently math is settled democratically in this thread I'm gonna vote for the 32.25% because that means that arithmatic still works and so our universe will continue to exist and not randomly blow up because people believe math is different.
To Lieu - You've made your point to everyone with a brain and willing to listen just let it rest you can't convince everyone.
Edit: +1 Karma for you...
This thread is depressing... I didn't actually think people could be so dumb.
EDIT: Referring to those who are saying it is a 15% swing.
I have won a lot of games because of flag locks through the ENTIRE game. Why must people come to the forums telling others how to play? L2P OP.
edit: god I hope that a lot of the people in here were just trolls and not actually firm in their 15% belief. Less Demigod, more school kids
Lieu- is right. You 15% guys are hilarious.
Lieu - I love you man. What field are you in? We should play together again sometime.
Lieu, truly a noble effort, both admirable and kinda humorous at the same time. in either case i like it. thanks.
HOWEVER....now do you understand why I said your original presentation was kinda, uh, not helpful? It was the sort of thing that was obviously correct and relevant to people who already knew the right answer but was counter-intuitive and appeared wrong (though it was right) to people with a weak math background.
this is what we have to guard against in communication with less technically inclined. i mean hell, the whole Deal or No Deal style of game show is based purely on the fact that certain types of math are counter-intuitive and almost everyone gets it wrong and makes a bad bet unless they're properly trained.
The way I understand it is that if the enemy has the xp flag, they are getting 20% more experience than you , which is 44% worse than your situation would be if you had the xp flag instead.
I'm in computer science, so quite closely related to mathematics, but this thread is just basic maths. Kind of depressing how certain people react to it but I've seen it all before. Modelling haste procs when dual wielding different speeds/damages/probabilities? All the numbers are there but people just love sticking with their basic intuition. It just has to be right!
I think I played sedna against you once? I think I know how that went I usually play with one, not as one.
Im a software developer but i dont see that it makes me better for discuss it... whatever.
Basic maths are accepted loooong time ago on the thread, no one is questioning the reality of the 32% of difference between your hp and the opponent hp having a flag or having not a flag... i thought it was pretty clear.
The problem is that u say that becouse there is a gap of 32% between the 2 players HPs this is reflected on combat when this is not true, u are never going to fight with this handicap on real numbers, your real handicap, following the example is 2000 HP (no flag player) VS 2300 HP (flag player) so its 15% of combat advantage to the player that has the flag.
There are two concepts that are being mixed wrong here:
1.- The 32% gap between the HP pools of players changing the HP flag.
2.- The real advantage of combat that is 15%.
U never ever are going to have a real hp pool difference of 32% in combat lets say 600 HP, if the 2 players have 2000 HP, the idea of the combat advantage is about a +15% HP that goes from one player to another, 300 HP bonus that move from one player to other while a flag is captured, this is the only gap that u are going to see in combat, 300 HP more of the player that have the flag, the otherone still having his 2000 HP(no penalization at all, just not bonuses, this is the quid of the question, NO PENALIZATION JUST NOT BONUSES) while the other have 2300 so 300 HP more than the otherone.
U cant say that u are fighting with a handicap of 600, this is not real at all, u just can justificate it by thinking that your pre bonus of the flag was part of your base HP while it never has been, it was an EXTRA bonus that now u dont have.
A good example of the 32% gap is the bite of erebus(is not 32% is just for the example) he gets 300 HP and u loose 300 HP this is a 32% becouse this is the real losing/win hp ratio.
The mistake is to take variable bonus as base HP, u have a base hp(with items+base HP+whatever) and then u have extra variable bonus(flags+buffs+debuffs). This is base+variable bonus not all together, u are handicapped if your base is handicapped not if u dont have 1 of the 4 extra bonus that u can have, if your opponent have more extra bonus than u u are not handicapped he is buffed.
I can't beleive you are still going on about this. The real advantage in combat (against a deimigod that lost the flag) is 32%, same as the hp relation swing on the exchange of the flag ownership. There is (almost) never a sitation where the state of gaining the flag is not simultaneous with the state of losing the flag. Pretty much same as Erebus bite, one loses one gains. This is a constant state change, even if they disengage, the next time they meet they are still at this state where one lost and one gained.
Noone argues that your personal buff is 15% and if you compare against creeps, minions or towers that is the combat advantage you personaly gain as they never had the flag and their state has never changed. However, against the opposing demigods which lost the flag, the state changed by 32% offering you that much advanatage. Only the initial state change from neutral gives someone 15% advantage, all subsequent give 32% becuase one loses and one gains. As I showed in my TB/Oak example, absolute hp numbers mean nothing the state change may or may not put you above opponents hp and absolute strength.
The problem is that you keep looking at absolute numbers - like the (only working for your case) equal hp example that you keep insisting on. However there is no absolute relation of a single parameter (like hp) in the game, only a difference in the state before (A has, B doesnt have the flag) and state after (reverse).
Or to paraphrase, using the numbers you insist on.A 2000 hp, 100 dps B 2000 hp, ~86,95 dps (15% less)
1) no flag owner, both have 2k hp, A has base 15% advantageA kills B with 261 hp left
2) A owns flag, A gains 2,3k hp, A has exactly 32,25% advantageA kills B with 561 hp left
3) flag changes ownership, A back to 2k, B gains 2,3k hp, A has 0% advantageBoth die
The state change 2 -> 3 made exactly 32,25% ADVANTAGE for B (or reduced A's advantage by 32,25%), just cause of the flag changing ownership, no other parameter was changed between the two directly adjacent states. It doesn't matter at all that both never changed hp by more than 15%.
You can only observe advantage between adjacent state changes as that is the only state change that occurs in the game. Observing it between arbitrary changes (like 1 -> 3) is irrelevant.
EDIT: Cleaned up for clarity
I'd rather spend the money on sorting my equipment out.
Ok, the only problem I see with all this flag crap, is that the 32% relative advantage is essentially meaningless. The math is correct, however, it is true that the real-life application of it is being screwed.
To put a slightly different slant on it.
Player 1 - No buff
Player 2 - No buff
Player 1 - 15% buff
Player 1 has a 15% buff, meaning they have a 15% advantage.
State C - both are buffed to equal state.
Player 2 - 15% buff
Now in your model, Player 2 suddenly has a 15% relative increase, so in your model, you would be claiming that there is actually a 15% relative increase therefore bonus to Player 2. However, there is no advantage
Player 1 - No Buff
Player 2 - 15% Buff
Now to further your model the player 2 now has a 32% advantage due to the relative increase/decrease. Again, this has some logic but in practical application is misconstrueing reality.
It is true that IF player 1 was holding the flag from the beginning, then you have a 32% advantage. However, the flag starts at neutral, returns to neutral before the swing, so in reality either party can only have a 15% advantage over the other. Player 1 is NEVER deducted 15% HP from base, which would give you the real life 30% advantage.
It is perfectly possible for a flag to remain in a neutral state, conferring no advantage. However, under the model where the swing or relative increase counts as a bonus, then you would be argueing that merely changing the flag to neutral would confer you a 15% bonus. It does not, it merely negates your opponents bonus.
If it makes you feel better, then switching the flag can give you a theoretical 32% advantage from changing state B to D, however when you go toe to toe with your opponent just remember that you still only have a 15% advantage over winning against them.
This is a difference between concepts, if u do not make distinction between base bonus and extra bonus u can see it as a 32%
If u make distinction between base bonus and extra bonus u can see it as a movement of bonifications +15% to who have the flag.
If i loose a flag i dont think i have -15% i think that my opponent now have the +15% becouse for me there is a clear line between base bonus and extra bonus.
Base bonus: The bonification that u have with all the items/base/artifacts, this is a static value (can vary but not because of opponents actions or if so not indefinitedly like debuffs)
Extra bonus: The bonification variable that u can get that is never static and is not part of the base bonus, it can change for map control or multiple other external reasons.
I see that it is futile to argue with you guys as even when shown factual proof with numbers you still refuse or lack the capacity to understand.
Absolutely - flag changes first to neutral. A took flag, gained 15% ADVANTAGE in combat. B is now losing combat by 15% ADVANTAGE of A having flag. Flag turned neutral (rare but possible). B is no longer losing combat to A cause A lost 15% ADVANTAGE, which is same as B gaining 15% advantage. Just the turning the flag neutral gives you 15% advantage compared to the opponent having it. Reducing the enemy strength by 15% is GAINING 15% ADVANTAGE over him.
State C never exists and I never ever claimed anything like what you're saying. Please qoute me and give numbers to prove me wrong.
But when you lost the flag you immediately lost 15% HP. That is a state change which directly relates to your combat ADVANTAGE or DISADVATAGE! You overcomplicate when the truth is very simple. The state change of the flag gives EXACTLY 32,25% DIRECT COMBAT ADVANTAGE!
Let's say you're at equal footing against your opponent and you have the flag. If he takes the flag, to regain equal footing you have to:
Retake the flag orIncrease your total HP by 32,25% orIncrease the dps you deal to the enemy by 32,25%.
Plain and simple. If you increase hp by just 15% you will not regain equal fotting, you will still lose.
Did this thread just go back in time?
Leinadon (edit: and sinzer too), lets get down to the definition of "real combat advantage". There is the type of advantage that you may hold over your opponent at a single point in time. We'll call it advantage1 to be extra clear. This would be 15% and it's the deviation from an equal situation.
Then there is the type of advantage that an event has associated with it, we'll call it advantage2. This would be the "I bought an item and it gave me a 15% 'advantage', even though I'm still not winning". This is measured between two points in time. It's the change in advantage caused by something, and thus it's the advantage associated with that event. In fact, you would define advantage2 as being the difference between two different measurements of advantage1.
The flag very clearly has a 32% change of advantage associated with it. So, I guess we would say:
"After capping the flag from someone...
- I have a 15% advantage
- The flag gave me 32% advantage"
So then what people in this thread are saying would be the real combat advantage in owning the flag is 32%. I would argue that using the term real advantage for that purpose is completely acceptable.
You keep insisting the real advantage is 15% - that it's the advantage you have at that moment. But what everyone here is so obviously doing is evaluating what advantage is associated with the flag, and that measurement is between two points in time because capping the flag is an event.
So we say "The flag gives a 32% advantage - 32% is the effect it's having."
And then you come and say "But the real advantage is only 15%"
Two different meanings and grammar and context decides which one, not you. It's like going into a "This is my regulus build" thread and exclaiming that he is not actually building anything.
The type of advantage you are describing isn't even applicable to evaluating the total effect of the flag. What you describe is only the after, and what everyone is interested in is what the flag cap is changing (that's how we value events), which also depends on the before.
Edit: Maybe you would prefer to think of it as a 32% improvement. The flag improves your hp situation by 32%, but it doesn't mean you are winning.
Yeah I agree people obvously have problems with gasping relative relations. Though this part of your explanation doesn't help much
Additionaly, when you get an item the 15% increase of a stat infers 15% improvent (or advantage). The change of ownership of the flag has 2 events associated with it, 15% decrease & 15% improvement (usualy in a single state change), so they are still wrong! (basically they cannot state the 15% gain without stating the 15% loss that also occured).
ummm, id agree that flag caps arent vital, I rarely use them on anything but enemy ports, these days lists of "factss" and "opinions" mean so little when they take up the entire fucking page...
LOL This thread was a very interesting read. to Lieu for suffering through all that nonsense.
I think there are flags worth capping early on, and some not. I don't think health/mana ones are worth a cap lock early, but XP or gold cap locks are definitely worth it, and gold mines usually pay for themselves. Then of course a cap lock in Exile is essential to holding the middle, and probably worth giving up an item to get a couple.
Yeah, good point there about Exile, I hate the map so rarely play on it, but locking a health crystal while you are using it, and others are charging you should be amazingly effective.
Liue, IS correct, I wish more people understood this. It's not liek flags sit in neutral EVER. They are yours or theirs. This is a > 30% difference. There is nothing to debate, it's simple math. If you don't understand you need to stop playing video games adn go and get that lobotomy.
After the start of the game somone almost always has the health flag. When you take it back
You gain 15%
They lose 15%
Therefor your advantage is 30%, I think people are confused by the actual real percentage of 32.5 or what not adding up, just read the first three lines of my post again, its all you need to know.
It's not 30%. The math actually works out to be 1.15^2 advantage, not 1.15X2 advantage.
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