I play some teams who buy flag locks early, like levels 1 - 3.
I think this is a waste of money. 250 GP is important early when you're racing towards your 1500GPish item. Unless a specific flag is required for your strategy (short cooldown on TB), don't waste your money so early when gold is sparse.
A good time to start locking is when enemy buys priests. You invest 250GP to lock the middle flag in Cataract. This buys you the time to go farm the priests in another lane and earn back your gold. Flag lock allows you to hold two flags for effectively 0 cost.
It's all about the right timing. Getting giants before the other team will often win the game.
agreed. i only really see the case for locking
1) base portals (yours or enemy's)
2) if you find your self "running round the tree" with an enemy DG and want to break the cycle.
What I also see alot is players capping the flags on the side in the enemy base early in game (war rank < 8), often dying while doing it. That is so stupid.
Capture lock price = 250g
Capture lock time = 45sec
Gold mine gold/sec = 2.22~
Number of players = P
For sake of argument we'll say you are in a 3v3:
(45s x 2.22 x 3) - 250g = ~50g
You gained a total of 50g (total pool) and deprived your enemies of a total of 300g (total pool), not to forget war rank. Isn't so bad because if you capture a flag then the enemy will either:
a ) be stupid and wait the whole 45 seconds to capture it back
b ) go do something constructive until it is unlocked and then capture it, netting you some more cash in the pocket.
There are some cases where flag locking is extremely good. For instance the center flag on cataract. A team that is just faster with their item choosing and skill choosing early on can lock that flag and take possibly both side flags. Even without the side flags though, they for sure have the middle and the good xp boost it gives.
Heck, in general early flag captures isn't necessarily about the war rank. Being able to lock a debilitation flag or HP% flag early on is a tactical advantage in combat, you might get pushed back a bit, but doing 110% of your normal damage, and them NOT doing 110% damage will help you control the lane. Similarly with Blood and Banded being a common starting set of items, locking a +15% HP flag could mean everyone on your team getting an extra 400 hit points, or more... and that's at first level!
This thread is poison. Are you trying to make people worse? Flag locking is spectacularly powerful and you should be locking from level 1. On cata for example, someone should be locking the experience or hp flag every single time you cannot hold it. Flag locking is so cheap and the benefits of many flags are just that good.
Take the experience flag: 1.2 bonus multiplier to xp but it's not quite that simple. Your xp with the flag in terms of your opponent's xp is 1.2 / (1 / 1.2), which of course is the same as 1.2^2.
This means that very literally you are receiving ~44% more xp relative to your opponent by you owning the flag instead of them.
One flag lock on most maps is about 10 seconds worth of your team's early game gold income, if that. The benefit of the health flag is that your health pool will have a ~32% bonus relative to the enemy. Also, don't forget the xp requirements for leveling up is an arithmetic sequence, not geometric, so accumulating early xp is hugely significant throughout the game.
So, no, it is not a waste of money. It is an absolute bargain.
Lieu, I have no idea where you are coming up with those numbers. Can you please explain your formula?
If you have 1000 hp and the enemy has 1000 hp and you get the +15% health flag then you have 1150hp. This is not 32% bonus relative to the enemy.
Same goes with killing grunts. A grunt that gives 10xp will give the player with the XP flag 12xp and his enemy only 10xp. Where did you come up with 44%?
In a game whose core concept often centers around territory denasil, it's not surprising that a chepa item allowing you to deny territory even when you're not there is one of the most powerful.
Keeping your opponents gold flag on cataract locked from the moment you take down the corner flag until the end of the game is going to seriously dent their economy. You're denying every member of their team a huge chunk of gold, and the value is even higher once currency 1 is taken into account.
On a side note, anyone else feel cataract is in fact not balanced? I feel the +HP flag is a lot better than the +mana flag, and the gold flag is as others have said great for regular locking, whereas the celerity flag is useful but probably not worth locking. This means that the forces of darkness can hold a lane with 2 of their players and gain the +gold flag cap and the +hp flag, whereas if the forces of light attempt to do the same they will recieve the +hp and the celerity flag. This means one team can solidify one lane with something like a tower rook and gain an advantage that is not posible for the other team to do.
Late game its a moot point, but during the mid game where the first towers are down and the game is beginning to open up stacking the one lane seems to net more benefit for one team than the other.
Food for thought anyhow.
Woppin, +1 for those very good points. The map isn't symmetric, and that can cause problems; I feel like posting that in the ideas section for rebalancing.
CONCUR! I gave ou +1 as well. I've got a new strategy to go execute...
Lieu is referring to the fact that you are also denying the enemy that 20% XP advantage.
I personally think staying in the lane is more important than flag locking. I'd prefer a +regen item or a potion to flag locks in most early games. Of course this partially depends on your Demigod... a burst damage DG like Regulus or Torchbearer probably gets a lot more benefit out of early flag locks than say a QoT or Tower Rook.
Maximizing the benefit of flag locks is difficult... ideally, you'd use flag locks and teleports so that you can outnumber the enemy locally most the time while still holding map control. But that has a high cost in gold and requires a high degree of team coordination which isn't always achievable.
You and opponent both have 1000 health normally, two possible scenarios:
You have Flag:
1150 Health. +15% more health than opponent.
They have Flag
1000 Health, but THEY have 1150. You have ~15% less health than opponent.
The net change is actually About 30%. Same reason that Erebus' bite is a health swing = double the damage value (unless you use it at full health, like a foo).
Same is applied to Grunt xp. The difference isn't just how much you get, but also that if you do not have it, the opponent does.
Great example, if you capture an enemies +15 mps flag on Leviathan early on, you end up with +30 mana per second, and they have none. This alone can win many confrontations early on, as that much mana can keep you going almost indefinitely.
You don't "end up" with 30 mps. You have a 30 mps advantage, but you are still only getting 15 mps (still a big advantage, but you can't act do the math for how much you can cast with 30 mps).
There is still the situation where nobody has the flag that nobody seems to take into account. It can happen occasionally, but not often.
The net change is 30%, true. But that's irrelevant.
When you're fighting, you're not fighting a DG with 30% less health than you. You're fighting a DG with 15% less health. 15% swing is the number we should be using to evaluate the efficacy of capping the health flag. 30% is inapplicable theorycraft.
No, that's completely wrong. It's counter-intuitive - I'll give you that - but the 32% is the actual change between you and your opponent. It's not theory-craft, it's hard reality. Taking the flag from your opponent means that the health difference between you and your opponent changed by 32%. Before you cap the flag, your health was 87% of your opponent's. After you cap the flag your health is 115% of your opponent's. 1.15 / 0.87 = ~1.32, hence the 32%. The 0.87 comes from 1 / 1.15 so the whole thing simplifies to 1.15^2.
I want to stress that the 32% hp difference is the actual, meaningful, physical, working difference between you and your opponent before and after you cap the health flag.
RE Mils: Yes, occasionally no one has the flag, but that is pretty rare so I don't worry about it.
Re Lukka: It is completely relevant. When you capture the HP flag the enemy will immediately lose health, and you will gain it, roughly on par with casting a level 2 bite on every opposing DG in the game (hit point wise). You gain health, they lose health. Let us factor in DPS for a second, this can be auto attack or including specials.
If each player in our scenario is doing 50 DPS:
The point here is that capping the flag isn't just moving from scenario 2 to scenario 1, it's moving from scenario 3 to scenario 1.
This is not theorycraft. You really shouldn't apply the word theory craft at all when referring to basic math in the game, it is generally reserved for strategies that only work 'in theory'. Whereas you do in fact always get 15% more health from a flag that gives 15% more health. Theory craft would be saying that 'sedna's heal isn't very good, because as oak I can always interrupt it with Penitence.'
This is no such situation. And heck, we aren't even arguing about war score, the xp/gold you deny the opponent from actually capping the flag, or the teleport target it gives you (That list is, I admit, a late game thing most of the time).
Considering that there are very relevant early game war score goals, such as gold, or perhaps level 1 xp, that compound over time, I really think this whole argument has the dumbs. Sorry mate.
When I'm fighting a DG, I'm not fighting someone who has 32% more HP than me. I've fighting someone who has 15% more. Or 15% less. That's what counts. How much our relative HP positions shifted from 30 seconds ago doesn't matter in the moment. What's past is past. What matters is the situation in the moment.
He's right guys, math is actually a matter of opinion and perspective. If he FEELS like it is only 15%, then it actually IS only 15%. Let's all hold hands and sing songs about how them darn numbers are so crazy, and they should just give peace a chance.
The tune will heal all wounds, and make Rage Quitters everywhere reconsider there ways, even if only for a moment. What bliss.
Just wait until Strangler sees this....
How can you "respectfully disagree" with something that is quantitative. There is no opinion involved here on hp values.
Ok, so you realise you either have 15% more or 15% less hp. What capping the hp flag is doing is giving you both those 15% differences. You are not getting just 15%. You are getting it twice over. What matters is obviously not just your 15% hp advantage now, but you got rid of your 15% hp disadvantage too. The benefit of capping the flag is the combined worth of getting rid of your disadvantage and gaining a separate advantage.
I don't know how more simply it can be described.
I respectfully disagree with anybody who says that Rook can't cast Ooze. I believe he can cast Ooze, and by modifying the game the can cast Ooze, so he can cast Ooze. It doesn't matter what the data says, he can cast Ooze. What's past is past.
Admin, can we just delete this thread? Inhumane shame and embarassment is being heaped upon my head...
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