I play some teams who buy flag locks early, like levels 1 - 3.
I think this is a waste of money. 250 GP is important early when you're racing towards your 1500GPish item. Unless a specific flag is required for your strategy (short cooldown on TB), don't waste your money so early when gold is sparse.
A good time to start locking is when enemy buys priests. You invest 250GP to lock the middle flag in Cataract. This buys you the time to go farm the priests in another lane and earn back your gold. Flag lock allows you to hold two flags for effectively 0 cost.
I edited my post above regarding these "hard values" getting thrown around.
The point with the two 2000 hp values was to illustrate that the difference is 32%. It means that in order to recieve the same benefit as the flag is giving you, the gear you would need to buy to achieve that would be items that increased your own hp pool by 32%.
So maybe that's a better way of explaining it.
- Start with any situation where your opponent owns the hp flag.
- Route 1: cap the hp flag.
- Route 2: buy items to give yourself exactly 32% more hp
- The outcomes of route 1 and route 2 are identical. Any fight you would win with route 1 you also win with route 2. Any fight you lose with route 1 you also lose with route 2.
This is exactly the reality of it, of course this is one of those "autoattack fights" where we don't being in external factors. But then I never made any claims about external factors, just that your hp relative to theirs would be 32% higher.
I don't see how you can then deny that buying 32% worth of hp gear doesn't have the same effect as capping the hp flag. You can do the numbers yourself and test it and it holds up.
Im starting to think that this is a joke... The depriving of the opponent of 15% is useless, the only one reality is that when u face your oponent u have 15% of (whatever) more than him, is not that hard... If there was a flag that give to u a 15% of wining percentage when u have it, u have a 15% more posibilities of win than the opponent no matters if before the flag he had +50000%, the fact is now u have 15% more chances to win than him, just this.
You are saying that depriving the enemy of the 15% is useless? Huh? That is wholly stupid. Try this: The enemy has a flag so go and cap it halfway. Take it to neutral so that the only change you have done is deprive the enemy of the 15% hp. Are you seriously saying that an enemy that is now measuralby and obviously weaker than before (he has less hp) does not help you at all?
Is not worthless depriving a 15% of the enemy... but the final numbers are a +15% of advantage to one player or another upon the otherone.
Lets do it with ur biased and hilarious example:
Now, x caps the flag away from y. x's hp goes up to 2300 and y's hp goes back down to 1739 where it started. So, now tell me what x's hp advantage is. 2300 is 32% more than 1739. There you go.
- Before the cap, is was an even fight. They were exactly the same.
- After the cap, x has 32% more hp than y.
- Ergo, the act of capping the flag from your opponent results in a 32% benefit to your hp between you and your opponent.
so x and y have diferent starting hps and so u can make your 32% theory succeed? rolf...
1739? do u get if from ur ass? the otherone go down to 2000 if they are even, what the hell, this is kindergarden logic.
Lets do the same with x = 2000 HP and Y = 2000 HP.
Now, x caps the flag away from y. x's hp goes up to 2300 and y's hp goes back down to 2000 where it started. So, now tell me what x's hp advantage is. 2300 is 15% more than 2000. There you go.
- After the cap, x has 15% more hp than y.
- Ergo, the act of capping the flag from your opponent results in a 15% benefit to your hp between you and your opponent.
More correct isnt?
STATISTICS DEBATES ARE THE SHIT. This is so real, so hardcore, that I can barely keep from being blown out of my seat by sheer force of exposition.
I know I'm being a hypocrite. Jerks.
Obvious troll is obvious.
Lets do the same with x = 2000 HP and Y = 2000 HP.Now, x caps the flag away from y. x's hp goes up to 2300 and y's hp goes back down to 2000 where it started. So, now tell me what x's hp advantage is. 2300 is 15% more than 2000. There you go.- Before the cap, is was an even fight. They were exactly the same.- After the cap, x has 15% more hp than y.- Ergo, the act of capping the flag from your opponent results in a 15% benefit to your hp between you and your opponent.
Try reading the logical steps before posting. Before the cap it was not an even fight becuse you changed it. Before the cap, it was 2000 vs 2300. That is not even. This completely breaks the chain. In fact, what that does show that it is NOT 15%. If at the end it shows there is a 15% benefit, then if the 15% theory were true, the starting point would have the opponents equal. They are not - 2000 vs 2300 and y wins. That in itself shows it can never be 15%. It was bad enough you making the claim that different starting hps were a way of "making" the theory work. It shows you never even began to follow the logical steps and the meaning behind the numbers. There was a reason they were both 2000 and there was nothing invalid about it.
Ok, please try to really comprehend this. The only reason I'm arguing is to find a resolution, not because it's an "I must win" situation. I want you to be able to understand. As per your other post:
If your enemy lost 50000% chance to win bonus, now your chance of winning is higher. Just that in itself improves your own chance to win. That is the crux of this concept: the enemy getting a bonus is the same thing as you getting a negative bonus. You say it's not hard to understand but you miss this simple concept. If it's 50/50 that you win or not, then your enemy gets a 200% bonus to win, then the new odds are 75/25. You can't both win. His increase in winning is your decrease. It's the same with hp. His increase in hp is your decrease in ability to win the fight. He has higher hp = you lose more.
Finally, please try and answer the item hp/route 1/route 2 thing. That is a display of 32% in action and there isn't a contradiction in it. Actually, you can go and test it and it holds up perfectly.
Ok, now I see what you are trying to express. This is ok and understood but if you are trying to calculate the HP advantage one has over the other side then this is definitely not a constant 32%. What you should be saying (and this is completely logical) is that the more HP you have, the bigger the advantage from capturing the flag. Can also be said that if your enemy has an HP advantage, you should capture the flag to take this advantage from him. Either making the difference in the HP bigger or smaller. This was what I was trying to say all along. There is no constant number here.
This
Is completely biased, numbers are out of ur ass and without any logic.
1739? where do u get it from? what weird calculation are u doing to get it? is it quantic physics?
No he is not goint back to the number that u get out of ur ass, he gets down to 2000 because has lost 15% he had and his base hp was 2000 like the otherone isnt?
So just put in there 2000 instead of ur quantic calculation of 1739 and remake ur example so we can talk about reality ok?
If you neutralize your opponents flag he loses 15% of his max health so if he had only 16% current hp left he is on 1% of his max hp then.
If you cap the flag yourself you get 15% more max hp and 15% of the new max hp is added to your current hp (pretty sure it works exactly like this at least)
So capping the flag while there is some fights going on the map totally changes their outcome.
The real actual change in winning chances is way too complicated to calculate as you have to consider life regen, hp without bonuses, armor, evasion, spells which negate or increase damage etc...
@maxxy if you have higher hp you don't necessarily profit more from the hp flag - if you have 0% armor and get +500 hp its less useful then getting +300 hp if you have 50% armor, if all the damage the enemy deals is weapon damage. If you get +500 hp and have a higher life regeneration its better than getting +500hp with a lower life regeneration as you will stay alive longer with a equal damage input which then results in a longer time where your life regen is in effect etc...
Ok, so you don't understand something and instead of making an effort to see what's going on you dismiss it. This is why you are not learning.
2000 each is not the base hp. That's what 1739 is. 1739 * 1.15 = 2000.
x had 2000 base, y had 1739 base. This is a perfectly valid starting point and these numbers are chosen for a reason. These are just base hp values and we're working with percentages.
y started with the flag, thus increasing him to 2000 hp. So we have a situation where y has the flag and they both have the same hp. You could try this in-game even.
The thing to note is, y has the flag and they both have 2000 hp and so are equally powerful. The idea is then if they start equally, if x caps the hp flag from y, then it will show us how much benefit the hp flag gave x for capping it.
So x and y are in an equal situation then x takes the flag from y. This changes x's hp to 2300 (2000+15%) and it changes y's hp to 1739 (because he lost his +15%. 1739+15% = 2000). Now it's 2300 vs 1739 and the only thing that happened was x capped the flag from y.
It was equal, then x caps the flag, then we have our result. If we look, 2300 is 32% more than 1739. 32% is the difference from the starting situation and we know the starting situation was an even match between them.
And that's why I very carefully said 32% more relative hp from the start. If I say percentage, that's what I mean. I never said anything about absolute amounts of hp, just the relationship between you and your opponent where the units are percentage points.
To leinadon, I layed out the situation in my example the first time. I said "...imagine this situation. x's opponent, y, has the flag capped. The hp values right now are 2000 hp for x and 2000 hp for y. That's after the 15% bonus that y is getting."
Before you complain so vehemently that you don't know where numbers are coming from, spend a little more time reading. On the 1739, I wasn't as clear. To me, it was obvious that if 2000 is after a 15% bonus, then taking that bonus away yields an hp of 1739 (2000/1.15). To a reader, it may not be immediately apparant where a value like that comes from.
I agree with this.
What I was trying to say is the advantage you gain is 15% of your health and they lose 15% of their health when a flag goes from their possession to yours.
The hard numbers depends on how much hp they and you have.
Lieu, all that math you're doing, 32% is an arbitary number based on different hp values. The larger the difference the larger the %. Say you have 1000 hp and your opponent has 5000 hp. Then you cap the flag, you now have 1150hp. You lose the flag and have 1000hp while your opponent has 5750hp. So the 150hp you lost plus the 750 he gained = 900 health swing. Where does 32% fall into that? 900 health is 90% of your initial health.
U cannot adecuate the numbers to give ur percentages how u want, if u want a fair example put two 2000 hp players, life is more easy than u are trying to demostrate (2000/1.15) why???? is a lot more easy 2000*1.15 = 2300 with flag 2300/1.15 = 2000 without flag.
No, is not 1739 this is the point where all ur theory falls, player X or Y NEVER EVER are going to have 1739, is easy to see, X or Y just win or go back to his base NEVER go down NEVER u have a 32% of difference.
What kind of calculation takes u to 1739? u never will go down to less than ur base EVER, all your theory is bisaed and bad constructed from the base.
U have one player with 2300 and anotherone with 2000 not more nor less its so easy to understand.
Situation 1: 5000hp player has the flag
5750/1000 = 5,75 times the hp
Situation 2: 1000hp player has the flag
5000/1150 = 4,348 times the hp
Change
5,75/4,348 = 1,3225 (ie. 32,25% change in hp relation)
Swing it any way you like with any numbers you want, the relation between the two values (or relative change) will always be 32% (and some)
Basic math ftw
Ah I see. Well, I'm done.
This is correct but this is not the discussion, as have been said hundreds of thousands of times before, the gap between what u had and he has after a change of control flag (32%)+- is not the same as the real advantage that u have upon your opponent that is 15%. This is the percentage of (whatever, mana, health...) that u now have more than him, of course, if your base is superior the 15% more will give to you more final points but to be fair and easy to understand u must do an example with both players with same HP(for example).
1. We're not even including stuff like going back to your base. When I say base hp it means your hp before any modifiers. If you have 2300 hp with the hp flag, then your base hp is 2000, because that's what your hp is without the flag.
2. I explained just two posts ago where I got every single number and why. If you have 2000 hp including a 15% bonus, then to take away that bonus you divide by 1.15. It's the inverse operation of multiplying by 1.15 which gives the bonus. 1739 base hp. 1739 * 1.15 = 2000 hp with the hp flag capped. Losing the flag means 2000/1.15 = 1739 hp. Back where we started.
3. Calculations and numbers cannot be biased. It is pysically impossible. They might be incorrect, in which case you must point out the error, specifically. Logic might be flawed, but again, it's useless if you don't actually say what is wrong.
4. I can't choose for something to be easy to understand or not, I can only try and explain it the best I can, which is hard if you have trouble with 2000/1.15.
5. I cannot choose whatever numbers I feel like in order to get the result I want. The result is not controlled by me. I can't "cook the books". All I can do is choose numbers that make it easily visible what's going on.
This example I'm trying to use, player x has 2000 hp without the flag and player y has 1739 hp without the flag.
y: 1739 hp -> 2000 when he gets the 15% flag bonus
x: 2000 hp -> 2300 when he gets the 15% flag bonus
It's y against x. The point of choosing these hp amounts for each player is that when y has the flag, he is the same strength as x. This is important because if they both had 2000 hp without the flag, then it's "Well, when y had the flag y won, and when x took the flag x won". Instead, if y has the same hp as x when y has the flag, then it's "Well, when y had the flag it was exactly even, and when x took the flag x won". So all we do is look at the amount x won by and that tells us exactly how much benefit the hp flag gave to x. When you do this, you find that x wins by 32%. Since the only thing that changed was the flag going from y's control to x's control, it must mean that action gave x the 32% benefit.
Everything is below. Everything. Read it slowly and follow. You could pretty much generalise it directly into an informal mathematical proof. To reiterate:
player y: 1739 hp -> 2000 when he gets the 15% flag bonus
player x: 2000 hp -> 2300 when he gets the 15% flag bonus
x has 2000 base, y has 1739 base.
No, this is the discussion. Nobody in this entire thread has ever, ever at any single point said that your direct advantage over the other player is anything but 15%. Physically your hp pool will not differ more than 15%.
What has been said over and over again is that taking the flag from your opponent is giving you a 32% hp advantage relative to your opponent. That is, you are getting a 32% hp advantage compared with before capping the flag and after capping the flag, with the point of comparison being your opponent. The 32% is a measurement of how you compare to your opponent with and without the flag. With the flag, it is the equivalent of getting 32% more hp when it comes to you vs your enemy. Your enemy would need 32% more hp to bring the hp proportion back to where it was before you took his flag.
And this has been said 20 times over, while nobody has said your actual hp is 32% more.
Like misfortune said, the relation between the two values always changes by 32%.
It is very likely that your demigod doesn't have same hp as the opponent demigod and looking at straight hp difference without taking all other factors into account (like dps, armor, etc) is stupid at best.
When you take a flag from the opponrnt, while increasing your hp by 15% you also reduce the opponents hp by 15% giving you a real advantage of 32,25%. This change may not give you more hp than your opponent, but it will still be a 32% advantage after you take it. Or you may already had more hp than the opponent before you took the flag from him, but still its the same 32% advantage when you take it.
See...it's stupid to talk advantage in terms of absolute hp numbers. Real advantage is a relative term and can only be inferred by the relative change in the hp of BOTH sides
How about this simple real game example:
TB starts with 1410 hp, OAK with 1700 (for simplicity sake no items). TB grabs 15% hp flag so he now has 1621hp.Oak 1700 vs TB 1621 hp.Oak has 1,0487x (or 4,87%) more hp at this moment (1700/1621).
Oak grabs the flagOak 1955 vs TB 1410Oak has 1,3865x (or 38,65%) more hp.A change of....drums please 32,2% (1,3865/1,0487).
So show me please how this change was 15% advantage.
Well if this is the case, then no point capturing the flag first as you only get a 15% increase, might as well wait until after, then you will get a 32% relative increase
ps I am being ironic
Anyway in terms of the original post, flag locking all the time can be a waste, but it can also be useful even early on.
The gold mine flags is interesting I haven't thought of that one. At Currency 1, then you gain (~270 x DGs on your side) gold and deprive your opponents a fair chuck depending on what they have invested in. That makes a pretty good argument to lock that flag as much as possible.
Im going to anwser this because im tired of repeat the same over and over for your other post:
"With the flag, it is the equivalent of getting 32% more hp when it comes to you vs your enemy."
No its not, is 15% when u face your enemy is a gap of 15% between who has the flag and who dont have it, if u had 3 zillion points before no matters, now your oponent have 15% HP more of his base and u not.
"Your enemy would need 32% more hp to bring the hp proportion back to where it was before you took his flag."
Yes, but this is completely different of the other point u are mixing concepts because this proportion is useless in terms of playing, this percentage is transparent for the players, they arent going to see that gap when face the opponent, they are just going to see that the other player have 15% more hp than his base and he has just his base points this is the only reality.
No one thinks "I have 2000 HP but cuz im supposed to have a +15% flag i count base+15% as my base so i really have 2300 and if i lose the flag im at 600 of handicap vs him" this is not how it goes, the handicap u get when u loose a 15% HP flag is a opponent with a +15% of his base HP nothing more nothing less, if u want to count a -15% to u becouse u are suposed to have the flag and u dont have it is ur own point of view but the reality is that u have base and your opponent have base+15% just this.
Thank you Sinzer for bringing it back to the original topic.
Personaly I think they are a bit of a waste early game except maybe for the experiance or gold flags. Later they become much more useful when holding a portal will actually deal some damage rather than give your opponent a few more XP.
And this is exatcly the fallacy of your argument in relation to the original post. When you meet your opponent and he has the flag, you should be thinking "if I take the flag and lock it, it will give me 32% advantage compared to the position I'm at right now".
or
"Should I lock the flag or risk losing it which will give me a 32% disadvantage compared to the current position"
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