So trying out all of the various races, and so far the Mimot to me have by far the strongest base traits. I wanted to give my notes and also see if other people have different views.
The Mimot's ability to produce two ships for one is the greatest economic booster in the game. You can expand almost twice as fast, build constructor's twice as fast, get your trade up twice as fast. However, one of the big moves is using supply ships. By getting two supply ships for 1, they are able to get their core worlds up and running far faster than any other civ does.
That would be strong enough, but the two ships is a strong military booster as well. While the HP penalty is notable, simply put having a fleet with twice the ships and offense as an enemy fleet is a slam dunk win. A smart mimot player gets a few logistics upgrades to ensure a good fleet size, but this ability combined with their superior economy means the Mimot is nigh impossible to beat. So far on the vast majority of my runs, the Mimot are always in the lead on the AIs, and playing them I can see why. They get the whole package, and while their HP penalty is a weakness later in the game when logistics gets capped out....for most of the game having double the number of ships is just straight up better.
I feel like it should be one or the other. Either they get double civilian ships, or double military....but giving them both is an advantage that is simply too great.
Yeah, the double supply is so powerful.
I think I'm going to double the cost of supply ships for factions with that trait as a first step.
Another idea for balancing the Mimot would be to reduce the percentage of manufacturing that goes to the shipyards. That way it would take longer to produce the 2 ships. For example, if you reduced the percentage by 1/3, it would take 50% longer to produce the 2 ships than it would take other civs to produce 1 ship. By tweaking the percentage the devs could reach a balance that they find desirable.
Another possible adjustment would be to reduce the manufacturing of worlds owned by the Mimot by some percentage to achieve the same result.
You may be right. By giving them a Military penalty (reducing the speed of their shipyards) they no longer get a 2 for 1 really. If we gave them -50% Military they would really be getting 1 for 1 since they actually produce ships at the same rate as everyone else (in the time they make 2 ships everyone else can do the same).
So I'm trying not to rob their flavor. But you may be right that a -20% or so may be a good way to help balance.
The double-supply ships does seem to me like an unintended consequence of their double-ship ability.
This definitely does make sense to me, and strikes me more as eliminating an exploit/loophole than a nerf. I'm guessing most players would agree that double-supply ships doesn't make sense for anyone to have..
-tid242
The double supply removal will certainly help, though I fear it will not be enough. The Mimot's ability is still incredibly powerful as long as it works on both economic and military ships together.
Agree 1,000%.
Currently the only way to play is not have them in the game. Otherwise, they are incomprehensibly powerful by midgame--stronger than all the other factions combined. They need to be patched ASAP.
I would really like to know what you guys are using for galaxy settings. The Mimot have done fairly poorly in every game I've played so far.
These are the settings that I play on, along with ALL AI's (so there are 4-5 AI's in every starting sector, more or less), and the Mimot have gotten crushed every game.
The last game I played (which I actually never finished) was an interesting one. I was playing with several large sectors and they all ended up being (for the most part) positioned in a line, with me being at one end. Because it was a lot of space to cover, I never actually got around to exploring the further reaches. I remember sometime mid-game thinking I was doing pretty well because my score was on par with the other high scorers I had met so far. Then I met the Altarians and the Drengin probably around turn 100, who both had nearly double my score. (I know score isn't the biggest deal and for the Drengin it's mostly military; still I get nervous when my score falls too low compared to other civs.) I thought, well I guess I have to catch up. Fast forward another 50-60 turns. I'm still not caught up, but I'm maybe halfway there. Then I meet the Mimot, who (as far as I can tell) are positioned on the far end of the galaxy. They have a higher score than the Altarians and Drengin combined.
I have had the same experience as tid242 for the most part (and i play on the same settings as him, roughly). It seems that if you play on settings where players are expected to start in empty sectors and have plenty of exploration time before encountering other civs, the Mimot get extremely powerful once their never-ending ship production comes online and the AI starts to roll. But in games i've played with crowded starting sectors and competitive planet wars early, they actually don't do so well. If an aggressive civ gets in an early game war with them, I commonly witness them get clobbered early.
So in my games, I essentially see the Mimot either be one of the most powerful civs (mirroring the complaints of this thread) or get run over early by combat civs, thus being one of the weakest players in that particular game (mirroring the sentiments of tid242). It might have to do with how quickly they get engaged in a war.
Mimot -25% HP is per ship, so you get 2 ships for the same HP as 1 of the other races.
However this is not Stellaris. Logistic play very important role here. A fleet of 16/16 with Small hull Mimot is weaker than any other race 16/16 fleet. No matter the tech, the NPC will get the same logistics too. And fleets are 1 vs 1 so Mimot exchanges the ability to field 2 16/16 instead of 1 but their ships will die the faster. Against well balanced opponent they will be wiped out.
Good example are the heavily guarded relics. All other races if you drop 16/16 (8 ship) small hull beam ships, they will lose some but not all of them against the guardian (2-4). Mimot will lose all the ships from the first attack and most of the times 5 ships from the second wave.
You get double the auxiliary ships true, however that reflects Mimot ability to reproduce fast. Their planets get cramped easily with huge penalties if not careful at the start of the game.
Also Mimot as a race have serious issue on Intelligence trait. You are ALWAYS back tech wise no matter how hard you try. Their brightest civilians are around 4 rarely 5. Their commanders can get to 8 but they are extremely rare. Most other races get 10+ Intellect pretty easily getting a tech head start.
Same applies to Diligence, you will struggle to find high Diligence Mimot. They are all hovering on 5-6. Even commanders are very rare to come by. Have to wait many turns to get one with high Diligence, Intelligence AND Resolve to use in command ships or factions.
Imho Mimot is a pretty weak but very very fun race to play and should stay as that.
There 2 ships is x1.5 the hp of other races (-25% = 75% normal hp, x2 = 1.5).
Its true that an equal fleet the mimot will lose. However, the Mimot can hit that cap much earlier than other races. I actually find the one of the best war rushes of any race both from their quick expansion but also the ability to generate fleets quickly. And while their fleets will die 1 on 1....technically that extra fleet was "free", you didn't pay anything extra from it. So if in each engagement I lose a fleet and a few ships, and you lose a fleet (from my second attack), on resources the Mimot are still winning.
yeah the more space you have, the better the mimots do. also though, something the ai may or may not take advantage of sometimes is the fact that the mimots are designed to use missiles right now. they make glass cannons anyway, and with missiles they get 2x the attack power for missile volleys. if the ai actually takes advantage of this and uses a bunch of ranged attacks with missiles then they'll do even better. i warned em before the game came out that mimots were on another level all they need is room to grow...
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