Starting with Galactic Civilizations II, we allowed players to go and watch their ships fight it out in battle in a separate battle viewer screen. But, what if we could show the battle on the main screen? That is, what if we could just zoom in on a fleet and rather than it being the leader ship with a number by it, it actually changed to show the entire fleet? So if you wanted to watch a fleet fight it out, you would just watch it right on the map.
Thoughts?
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Galactic Civilizations IV Dev Journals
#1 - Welcome to GalCiv IV
#2 - Humanizing AI
#3 - Addressing Micromanagement
#4 - A Guided ALPHA Tour
#5 - The Ideology Compass
#6 - Those First 20 Turns
#7 - The Changing Face of Space Robots
#8 - Rise of the Commanders
#9 - Onboarding
#10 - Do we need a battle viewer?
#11 - Combat AAR
#12 - AAR Drengin Human Wars I Part 1
#13 - The Vault
#14 – Pacing Comparisons
#15 - Internal Factions
#16 - The Battle Viewer
#17 - Screenshot Time
#18 - The Dawn of the 24th Century
#19 - The Roadmap
#20 - Deals of the Xeloxi + v1.04 Preview
#21 - The Arcean War + 1.05 Preview
#22 - Save Me
#23 - Every Turn Counts
The battle viewer is fun sometimes, especially when I create or download a new ship design. After that, I hardly use it for the sake of time. Would I miss it? No. Not a bit.
Seeing battles on the map would work so long as it happens quickly. Time is the biggest reason I mostly skip the battle viewer. If map battles bog the game down, I wouldn't want them, or I would want the option to skip them, preferably as a menu option and not a "every battle" pop up.
My opinion, of course.
I agree with your opinion.
I don't think it's important. If the battle can be displayed on the strategic map and look flashy enough, while providing some optional detailed feedback, I'm completely okay with the battle viewer going bye bye.
Absolutely fine with killing off the battle viewer.
The central issue with the viewer for me was always "Well, we've given you a ship designer to design your fancy Tiger Shark frigate with it's lasers and missiles and defences and everything, now, don't you want to see how it does in combat? Of course you do!!"
As Devildog_FF says, if you can report on a battle with relevant stats so that the player can see the basic information of how well their Tiger Shark frigate went against that Drengin fleet fill of laser beams and make it look flashy enough to please most people (I'd be happy with just: 1. Notification that my frigate is approaching/being approached by an enemy and stats for each ship involved in the engagement, 2. Request for order - attack or retreat and then 3. Subsequent report on result of order, frankly), why not...
Especially if battles and invasions are going to become a multi-Turn thing. Yes, I want my forces to Invade the Drengin Core World and I'm fine with the fact that it's going to take 5 Turns to achieve that invasion. I just don't want to see a Battle Viewer/Invasion Viewer five times...Notification of how the battle's going suits me fine.
I'm okay with that, however, I would argue that if you're going to show the battle on a hex grid, you might as well add turn based combat that we control ourselves.
I'd be ok with that if we could control combat manually, but otherwise I like the viewer personally
I like the battle viewer. I think an option to toggle it on and off to avoid the smaller less relevant battles would be helpful, but I enjoyed watching two large fleets battle it out. It also help me understand how ship roles affected the starting placement and ship targeting. It's also enjoyable to watch battles that are rated uncertain as there is some tension watching the fight.
I design a lot of my own ships and enjoy watching them clash against enemy fleets. I'd prefer to keep the battle viewer unless what's replacing it is similar with just a different access method. The battle viewer had a lot of useful tools to move the camera and watch a space battle unfold.
I hardly ever watch the battle viewer. It feels like a waste of time to watch a battle that has already been resolved, and which the player has not influence over. If we could give general commands (close range, hold range steady, retreat, etc) then it would be worthwhile to have, otherwise it's simply an engage fleets, check results, continue with turn.
I like the idea of zooming in on the combat; it would be familiar in concept to any SOASE player and is much more elegant than a separate battleviewer. That being said, I'm going to throw my hat in with Nels above and say if you are going to do that just give us combat on the hex map in a Civ VI fashion.
I love this idea of zooming in to see the actual fleet battle! What I'm envisioning based on your words sounds like it could be very appealing if the AI, visuals, effects, audio, camera controls, etc. are all up to par with the rest of GC4's polish.
I love combat in my games, SotS is one of my all-time favorites and still unmatched in some ways with how it made combat engaging and interesting. I've enjoyed combat in all sorts of other titles in this genre.
I must admit I did not care for GC3's combat viewer, its controls, the graphics, the effects, etc. The combat experience wasn't fun or engaging and I would avoid it after a handful of views. I really tried to enjoy it but ultimately skipped it for the strategy layer animations.
I hope the idea of GC4's combat viewer eschews that for something new, even-if classic, like a locked isometric RTS view. Would this be 3D movable (with customizable controls)? Side/top? Isometric?
I do agree that battle stats intel is critical to display in a readable & useful fashion. It would be nice to see epic ship designs and researched tech builds be shown off in modern GFX glory. If it can't be given the level of detail and polish to be at least visually fun and engaging, I'd be fine with the existing "zoomed out" strategy layer summarized combat.
But if you pursue combat in GC4, mayyyybe interactive/controllable if/when zoomed in? Yes, I realize it's quite the pipe dream but one can always hope.
I actually thought this was how combat in GalCiv4 was going to work all along (take place directly on the main map, ala Stellaris).
The battle-viewer has always been useless/pointless anyway, so yeah, I'm all for it.
I used to watch the battle viewer in GC3 about half the time, but I really wouldn't miss it.
Galciv 3 for me never realised the potential of its battles from a visual standpoint. There were flashes of greatness sometimes when it came together and a skirmish *could* look epic. But it was janky, and the stats info and breakdown were pretty unreadable. I think when you go to the effort of designing your own ships and you have a wiz bang super engine for the game, you want to enjoy a bit of spectacle and to live out those epic fantasy battles like in B5, The Expase or Star Wars.
I support the design decision to focus on the big picture over micromanagement when it comes to combat, therefore leaving tactical battles off the table. But I also think one of things that can really elevate this type of game is marrying big, important strategic decisions with great presentation. So it would be great is Galciv 4 was able to find a way to convey the spectacle of fleets clashing in a way that is entertaining, but also not tedious and intrusive. I like the idea of zooming in on fleets and watching lots of pretty lights and action occurring and then zooming out to order new fast food chains being established on Sigma Prime.
My problem with the idea of the zoom in function is that battles that don't take place on the players turn could be missed.
When it comes to GC III's battle viewer their where a couple things that frustrated me.
1. Endless pop ups for battles of no real consequence. I hated unlocking the tech that gives +3 fighters to each planet. The A.I. struggled to understand what was going on and every turn would be filled with 5-10 pop-ups of the A.I. destroying those 3 fighters over and over again. That being said I think the issue could've been fixed by removing that tech.
2. I think the animation was good when you put time in to learn the controls. I didn't like how the ship starting placement was laid out. Tiny, small, medium, large, huge. It was difficult to keep ships the right speed so that the huge weren't completely left behind. Fleets should stick together to be more effective except for support ships.
3. Fleet composition isn't really a thing in GC III. Mixing ship sizes rarely helped, but it does add more of an epic feel. The problem is that the very similar fleets duke it out over and over again. In my the past games the A.I. build almost exclusively carriers. The battles play out the same every round so I skip them more often.
4. There's not enough uncertainty in battles. There's rarely an upset or unforeseen loss in the battles except for those rated uncertain. A little more randomness in battles would help liven combat up. Critical hits that knock out ship systems or do higher amounts of damage is one possible method.
5. Information could be better condensed. I don't usually want a play by play breakdown. A list that tells me how much damage was done by a ship, how much damage that ship took, and how much of that damage was blocked would be a much more concise way to present the battle information and inform my future fleet design choices.
I think all of these could be fixed without removing the battle viewer. I'm not sure whether the zoom in function is a great idea to be honest. I'd rather just have the option to toggle the viewer on and off. If we can adjust criteria for what would cause the battle viewer to pop up, that would be even better. Criteria could include player minimum logistic points and whether or not a player support craft is under attack.
Detailed information is important to me. I want to be able to check if my tactic works and if not why not.Battle Viewer in GalCiv3 helps a lot to understand how attack, defense, tactical speed, ship roles and tactical repair work - more by text than animated visuals.Will the change result in more than one battle happening in parallel? If yes, I would like the ability to pause the game during opponents turns. So, a new bunch of problems to solve.I guess the biggest strength of the Battle Viewer is, that you can put away the whole other UI that has nothing to do with the fight. So more room to show battle related information.
This is fine but.. and I have stated this on Discord:
The player will have multiple survey reports AND will finish techs. The player cannot close any windows or zoom to any part of the map until the player picks a technology. Also the pop ups for surveys also prevent the player from viewing battles on the map.
Please disable the mandatory 'pick a tech immediately at start of turn' and allow the player to do his surveys after he views a battle or MOVE the survey event to the end of the turn.
I am all for the viewer being on the main map. Best idea ever. Just move or disable the tech pick pop up or move it to end of turn and change the survey reports to be when the player wants them.
I'm not big on the battle viewer. It was great for learning how battles worked back in GalCiv 2, but is not very important after you learn it. Now a days I keep the battle viewer off for both GalCiv 2 & 3. Part of the problem for GalCiv 3 is the battle viewer doesn't show the actual positions of the ships, so its hard to know why some ships weren't attacking. Might be one of the reasons why I spam tiny hulled missile ships; you don't need to worry about range if your ships use the same role and have the same weapon range.
I like the idea of seeing some sort of battles (part of the appeal of why i like space 4x games) - how that happens either through a viewer or 'zoomed in' option I don't really mind either way
I've rarely used the battle viewer. I don't mind having them on the hex map, so long as they don't take too much time. I do certainly agree that pop-ups shouldn't block seeing where a scout was killed.
I don't think the game needs a battle viewer. Just like you said in an earlier post about Stellaris, one of the things that that game does well is that everything happens on the same map. That being said I think there needs to be some level of player control if battles would happen on the main screen for it to be interesting. Some examples could be:
In short I think the idea of scrapping the battle viewer is fine but there has to be reasons to have the battles happen on the map. The battles in the game should be intergrated into other mechanics. A final thing I would like to add it that maybe ships and especially the bigger ships should be a bit more durable and less expendable in this game. Building those and losing those should be a big deal. It might help to make some ships be important entities of your empire too. In Hearts of Iron 3 you can designate a ship as pride of the fleet which makes the ship perform a lot better however if it's sunk your country will suffer a morale loss, I think this is a nice touch and similar mechanics could work well in a game that lets you design your own ships.
I think the first battle should be in the viewer... and then after that the player can just turn off the viewer or turn it back on if they want on a fleet by fleet basis... I say this because if I have a maxed out fleet and i'm about to take it against the other maxed out fleet... I kinda want to watch, but if I have just a mop up fleet against the dregs left over.. meh
Hmmm that is an interesting question.
I will have to see the alternative to battle viewer before deciding.
On the other hand, what is the point of ship building, spending hours playing with components when you can't even see it the ship you just build?
I like the idea of having a check box in the setup. At most all I ever want are the stats.
If it has no interaction ala retreat,cards I see no need.
I knew I was in the minority, but this thread made me realise I'm almost completely alone in this. For me the combination of ship designer + ship builder is the *main* reason I like GalCiv over any other space 4X. Having a battle viewer with pre-built ships does very little for me, but then spending as much time as I do designing your ships and then not being able to see them go at it feels a bit pointless. That being said, I think I'm ok with actually seeing the battle on the map. It doesn't have to be a separate instance of the game. If you can see it on the map with all the full fleet, that's good too.
Maybe something like what Endless Space 2 did could work in that case? Not actually doing an RTS battle cause that would be too much, but just being able to issue some general commnads before the start of the battle, plus the option to retreat
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