Links to most recent balance polls right here at the top:
Ice TB - Deep Freeze nerf:https://nuudel.digitalcourage.de/3qD2kuYXn3Xf9nih
############################################################
It's working, yay! Working versions of the Extended BalanceMod can be found here:https://github.com/Schwiegerknecht/ExtendedBalanceMod/releasesGo to the version you want, go to "Assets" download the source code as zip-file, right click "extract here" and put it in \Demigod\bindata\mods. Make sure you don't have an extra folder layer before the Hook-folder. The path of the Hook-folder for v0.2 should be: "..\Demigod\bindata\mods\ExtendedBalanceMod-0.2\Hook" (see also README.md).If you try the mod, I'd be happy if you leave feedback (ideally collect it here but Steam is also fine). I'm also glad to watch replays of your games and see how it works out. Feedback is very appreciated since the exact values of a few of the changes (trinket prices...) are somewhat arbitrary. You can upload replays here:https://app.box.com/s/qpx334amine2q3370x15mw0agxlafknj
For a list of changes in the Extended BalanceMod so far see the first reply in this thread or here. For a list of the BalanceMod changes, see: https://forums.demigodthegame.com/423898/See also the "Balance Mod 1.31 Tour Guide.doc" in the mod folder (Demigod/bindata/Mods/BalanceMod) for some of the intentions behind the changes.
Thanks go to reggird and especially to Koush for suggestions and thoughts.
Original thoughts before v0.1:
I currently have some time and enough energy to try my hand at modding some more. So I'm seriously considering adding some more things to the BalanceMod 1.31. Things that aren't adressed in BalanceMod are artifacts (some of which are ridiculously strong, some too weak), and, I believe, many armor/glove/boot items that just are too weak to seriously consider for the value they offer for their price. Especially not when they're competing for valuable item slots with other (more efficient) items. So the main focus of this mod is to create more viable builds by buffing a lot of the currently unused (or even useless) items and to nerf certain items that have a very centralizing role.
Until we find some practical way to discuss this stuff over Steam (where activity of most players seems to be centered atm), I figured I'll provide a thread for ideas, comments and other feedback here. So if there's something that's always bothered about Demigod balance (even with BalanceMod 1.31), leave a comment.
EDIT: Koush took a look at some item stats and how much you pay for them by going off the starter items. This does not include favor items and trinkets. While there's necessarily a bunch of assumptions involved (there's also a few minor inaccuracies), the results actually come close to which items are popularly bought. So it can give a good first orientation to base initial changes on. (The biggest caveat is probably that HP is all in all more imprtant than mana, considering the damage that spells do. Some other things that are hard to quantify are item interactions, unique DG traits, items fitting certain playstyles, priest or other %-heals etc., etc.). Also, thank you Koush See: https://www.mediafire.com/file/hr59py3pkjjdsgx/Demigodmath.txt/file
Changes that I would consider/Reasoning (to be edited):############################################################
Orb of Veiled Storms (buff) - In vanilla, the DPS this gives is pretty weak for 8k gold. The effect in itself seems cool though, so I tried buffing it to make it more attractive. One suggestion by reggird was to increase the damage to be able to clear catapultasauri in one go, we could do that in the future, if Orb is still too weak.
Cloak of Flames (buff) - Increased the damage a bit. At the moment it is still one of those artifacts that you buy when there's nothing else to buy (Bulwark, Ashkandor...). Bulwark is probably still more attractive, but it would be nice to have the other artifacts be options worth considering once you have the money for them.
Unmaker (REWORK) - Since I decided to get creative with Stormbringer, I transferred the identity of mana artifact to Unmaker, which now has cooldown reduction and a Blade of the Serpent-like effect (thanks to reggird for the idea). Not a useable item anymore.
Stormbringer (REWORK) - The most logical change of all the changes here: Lightning occurs in storms, Stormbringer brings storms, ergo... I added the proc of Nature's Reckoning (with higher proc rate but less bounces) and the ability to summon waves of Hail. So now it's kind of a counterpart to Cloak of Flames (albeit more crazy).
Bulwark (nerf) - Probably the best artifact (or item in the whole game), with the best cost/benefits ratio. For changes see below.
Ashkandor (nerf) - Not very fun to play against and one of the central artifacts to get. Nerfing the crit damage in principle seems like the way to go (and hopefully you won't need the x4 crits anymore to blast through people having Bulwark). We can always tweak it of course if this nerf is too hard.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Journeyman Treads (nerf) - Jtreads are one of the absolutely dominant core late game items. If you don't have them you're going to suffer. Lowering the speed boost and giving some other options for movement speed overall might be good for the boots items I think. For changes see below.
Assassin's Footguards, Desperate Boots (buff) - Added movement speed to hopefully make them alternatives worth considering, next to Boots of Speed and Jtreads, respectively.
Armor of Vengeance (buff) - I removed the 10 HP regeneration added with BalanceMod 1.31 and gave it some flat HP instead (didn't think sustain fits with the vengeance theme, but you need something HP-wise). And I added an armor proc that increases the reflected damage for a certain duration, which I think makes the whole item a bit more dynamic and interesting. Should be effective when someone sends their minions to bully you. This might still need some thought, though.
Platemail of Crusader (buff) - Works in a few niche cases with BalanceMod. Added some flat HP.
Theurgist's Cap (buff) - Since Warlord's Punisher and Gauntlets of Despair already drain absolute Mana, I kept the old WeaponProc, but added 50% Mana regen of your own instead. This needs experimenting though, I think it might be quite strong like this.
Vinling Helmet (buff) - This is just way to expensive for what it does, when Plenor only costs half. The proc chance is actually not shabby against minion builds or especially Rook. So ccarefully increased the mana you get.
Plenor Battlecrown (nerf) - Less base mana since it's so strong and cheap compared to other mana items.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Gloves: I buffed pretty much all of them. If some of them seem too strong with those changes, remember that none of them give HP and cost gold that could also have been invested into HP items. I also kept the lifesteal restricted to the Rings (trinkets). Note the new WeaponProc on Doomspite Grips which is supposed to counter HP stacking. I also considered giving Wyrmskin an armor reduction WeaponProc, in case it's still bad.
Trinkets: Keeping in mind that you can barely afford not to carry Teleport/Sigil/Lock, most of these need to be sold again anyway, at the loss of 20% of their value. Since many have cool effects, I lowered the costs quite a bit to maybe make them worth the temporary investment and have players experiment with them. Feedback is needed though. I'm sure we need to adjust this as we realize how useful these actually are.
Ring of the Ancients (buff) - Added lifesteal to fit the theme of the other rings. Might need adjustment, though, could be too strong.
Forest Band (buff) - The only true Minions-only item now gives them HP regen, so hopefully it can be considered.
Dark Crimson Vial (nerf) - Increased cooldown to make it less spammable and to hopefully make players have to choose more carefully if they want to use it to increase lane presence or if they want to save it for the next teamfight.
Staff of the Warmage (buff) - Gives mana regen that scales with time. I thought of it kind of as a mana equivalent to Blood of the Fallen, but in late game mana just loses value compared to HP. Hopefully this makes it feel relevant (as you could sell Vlemish for an HP item instead).
Tome of Endurance (buff) - Minion HP regen for more Endurance. Kind of the BotF for minion builds, it was probably still a tad weaker than BotF. This seems like a nice bonus that
EDIT: After looking at Koush's file:
Unbreakable Boots (nerf) - Reduce mana pool by 300-400?Vlemish Faceguard (rebalance) - Reduca mana pool a little and instead give it more regen to differentiate it more from Plenor? (Though that might be unnecessary, just an idea)------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------UB:Acclimation nerf! It's still gonna be scary and tanky, but quite a bit less unkillable.
Oak:Decreased Shield duration from 3/4/6/6 to 3/4/5/6. That seems like a more reasonable progression and you have to invest more into Shield, which I think is justified considering its strength. Perhaps even move the cleanse from Shield I to Shield II upwards. (I think the ingame description even says that debuffs are removed only at Shield III.) - See below.Sedna:Buff Yetis some more? Not sure against whom even the balance mod Yetis might be good. They're fat, maybe give them more HP/armor.------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Currency got a slight nerf, see discussion below.
Building Firepower (buff) - Since this line of upgrades was completely useless, we tried adding a tower range bonus that kicks in at level 2. So this is now an option to counter Siege Demolishers and Regulus' range.
Finger of God (buff) - You invest 4k to get a once per minute attack that can't hit moving targets. At half the cooldown, hopefully it's remotely useful. (That seems like the better route compared to having a random 2k true damage get that one game-deciding kill.)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Another thing is braindead portal locking with Oak/Sedna(/Erebus). You teleport in, Shield/Silence/Stun, lock without risk of interrupt and then waltz away with JTreads. That leaves little room for counterplay. Apart from the JTreads nerf making it harder to make it back to base in time to teleport back to portal, I think forcing people to fight for their conquered portal makes the whole thing more interesting and fairer. The easiest way to achieve this is by changing the Cooldown and/or Duration of Portal Locks, which is probably the biggest change in this whole mod. My first thought was lowering the Duration below the cooldown of Teleport Scrolls. The idea being that you need to coordinate better with your team to actually get to the portal flag in time to hold it. The way it is (CD: 40, Duration: 30) the Cooldown is still 4-5 seconds longer than the Duration on Cataract (and longer on all other maps, which are more unbalanced when it comes to portals anyway).Especially this one might require quite some experimenting to arrive at a decent result, but I'm sure it'll be interesting and could be very rewarding for making late game play more varied.
One general thing that is still pretty strong is HP stacking. There is already a mod that changes priest heals from percentage-based to an absolute value I think. Maybe I still have it somewhere. A different route might be to make items do a % of a demigod's max HP (see Doomspite Grips). Those are pretty big changes, though, so probably hard to balance.And considering the big amount of damage some spells do and how almost every DG needs to be in melee range to attack, it will be hard to create true alternatives to HP stacking.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Happy discussing,Schwiegerknecht
Movement speed aura: 10% for allies in range 15
Cooldown: 30 seconds (normally 60)
Theurgist's Cap:
Change the passive
from:
5% chance on being hit to reduce the target's Health Per Second by 50% and Mana Per Second by 50% for 10 seconds.
to:
5% (or maybe 10%) chance on being hit to reduce the target's Mana by 200 (or maybe more?)
So like what Warlord's Punisher or Gauntlets of Despair do now? That would probably be stronger. And also not unfitting for a magical cap, I guess. It would make at least the gauntlets completely superfluous, though, so they might need a new passive then. Or we could just increase the amount of regen reduction on Theurgist (and buff Gauntlets of Despair without giving them a new passive). The Theurgist proc chance is already 10% with BalanceMod btw.In any case, three items with basically the same passive would be overkill, imo
I would maybe change Currency 2 and 3. Even in 2v2 you pretty much HAVE to get Cur3. Maybe instead of 4/8/12 change it to 4/7/10
Oak Penitence nerf looks a bit random tbh. You're pretty much nerfing his shield already.
"change it to 4/7/10" - Koush would certainly approve of that You mean Cur 3 is mandatory at the moment cause most games are so even the advantage is too big in 3v3 and most 2v2s are too long? I think Koush believes it's simply too much gold in absolute terms, which I don't necessarily agree with, since there is so much to buy in this game. But I guess I could get behind the argument that Cur 3 shouldn't be totally necessary. In even matchups I guess you're right, but especially in 3v3 I'm not so sure.Why not 3/6/9 though?I don't really believe that having to invest one more skill point in Shield will really harm Oak much, so I figured if UB gets nerfed, Oak could also do with some slight nerf, since he's so strong unless you can steamroll him really hard. But since all the other changes have the potential to change a lot of things, maybe he won't even need it in the end. Maybe I'll just keep most changes to items for now, since those really need it.
Well in 3v3 your team gets back the gold you spent on Cur 3 in less than 6 minutes after purchasing it. So you must always buy it in 3v3. Always.
In 2v2 it's less than 9 minutes to break even. Still way too good not to get it imo. Idk maybe a poll to get ppl's ideas about the gold values would be good.
Hmm, fair enough. With Cur 3 giving 9 g/sec it would be close to 8 minutes in 3v3 and towards 12 in 2v2. I don't know how much those minutes are in War Rank, maybe we should think about that, too. Since it's important how much you set yourself back on giants by buying currency.
But it would also be kind of dumb if you could never get artifacts imo. Getting there in a 45-50 minute game sounds somewhat reasonable to me. (Just some notes for later maybe: You reach WR 3 at 7 minutes, WR 5 at ~14 minutes, the others I haven't timed yet. You pay 13000 for a standard build with JTreads, 2400 for FS+Cur1 and 16200 for creeps, making the absolute minimum costs (without consumables) at WR 10: 31600 for 1 player, 44600 for 2 player team, 57600 for a 3 player team.)
This is an online translation. If my answer is unreadable, the text below is in Russian.
The main problem of the mod - a large number of changes introduced at once. As a result, some of the original functionality of the game simply ceased to work. But separately noted Rook. This is an online translation. If my answer will be unreadable, below is the text in Russian.
The main problem with the mod - a large number of changes introduced at once. As a result, some of the original functionality of the game simply ceased to work. But separately noted Rook. Broke 2 original builds at once. Why? If the creator of the mod wanted new builds, it does not explain why they broke the old ones. Consider just 1: Towers 4 became 550 mana, which is 150 mana more than it was. Let's do the math: 150 x 8 = 1200 mana!!! 1200 mana more is + 1 artifact for mana and - 1 artifact for health and armor. And that's for "balance". Seriously? And that's against a global buff of other demigods. I guess things are no better with the dog, but the example given is more than enough. In addition, in the game played with you there were other mods that change the original mechanics, which additionally affect the final result.
Balance modifications - it's always a meticulous work, not an assumption of "this is better".
Slightly changed 1 value - see the result. Change it some more - see the result. It doesn't work as we need it - we give it back. We look for another way to achieve balance. And so constantly - very long and laborious. This is how we get the balance right.
The game industry is full of exemplary mods. Some (heroes3 hota) become an "extension" of the original, some (dota) grow into a separate game.
You started to edit the balance by modding the game - a great start! I sincerely wish you to achieve a very high result! After all, it's one of my favorite games.
____________________________________________
Главная проблема мода – большое количество изменений, введённых разом. В результате часть оригинального функционала игры просто перестала работать. Но отдельно отмечу Ладью. Это онлайн перевод. Если мой ответ окажется нечитабельным, ниже текст на русском.
Главная проблема мода – большое количество изменений, введённых разом. В результате часть оригинального функционала игры просто перестала работать. Но отдельно отмечу Ладью. Сломано сразу 2 оригинальных билда. Зачем? Если создатель мода хотел новых билдов, это не объясняет зачем ломать старые. Рассмотрю только 1: Башни 4 стали 550 маны, это на 150 маны больше, чем было. Считаем: 150 х 8 = 1200 маны!!! На 1200 маны больше это + 1 артефакт на ману и – 1 артефакт на здоровье и броню. И это для «баланса». Серьёзно? И это на фоне глобального баффа других полубогов. Полагаю с псом дела не лучше, но и приведённого примера более чем достаточно. Кроме того, в сыгранной с вами игре были и другие моды меняющие оригинальные механики, которые дополнительно влияют на итоговый результат.
Модификации баланса — это всегда скрупулёзная работа, а не предположения «так лучше».
Чуть изменили 1 значение – посмотрели результат. Ещё изменили – ещё посмотрели. Не работает так как нужно – вернули. Ищем другой способ добиться баланса. И так постоянно – очень долго и муторно. Так правится баланс.
В игровой индустрии полно образцовых модов. Какие-то (heroes3 hota) становятся «продолжением» оригинала, какие-то (dota) вырастают в самостоятельную игру.
Взялись за правку баланса путем модификации игры – отличное начинание! Искренне желаю вам добиться очень высокого результата! Всё-таки это одна из самых моих любимых игр.
Hi Iriniko.
Thanks for taking the time to give me feedback, appreciate it!
I'm not quite sure what you mean with "some of the original functionality of the game simply ceased to work", but I guess that you refer to builds. (If you mean bugs: I'm not sure if I might have introduced slight technical issues with Regulus' Snipe, but that's really hard to test.)
I think the main reason for there being many changes at once was that there are so many items and skills in Demigod that are simply not worth using. Take helmets, armor and gloves: In original Demigod there's 4 useable helmets (maybe 5), 2 good Boots and 1 good Glove. Many of the changes i made are buffs/improvements to items that were just bad by comparison and many of them are still rarely used. I gave Sedna's Yeti some big buffs and still noone plays them.But I guess the problematic part is making some things that seem too strong weaker (=nerfs). And you might be right that for some of those changes I have done too much at once. The ideal way would be testing very small changes, like you say. The problem with Demigod is that the player base is so small and there are so few games that this would take very, very long if done properly. Though some things like UB's (dog/Unclean Beast) Acclimation are just obviously too strong, so I felt justified in making some more changes. But yes, some things might have to be readjusted.
Rook I changed like that for the following reasons:In Original DG and also in BalanceMod 1.31, Rook has no bad 1v1 matchups. Some people, like Sedna, Regulus or Demon Assassin simply have no chance at all. A Queen of Thorns or an Erebus with some skill points in Morale can fight against Rook in early game (but less in mid game) but Erebus has to postpone leveling his stun (and minion builds fall off in late game). Others, like hybrid or ice TB, Oculus, Oak or UB can win against Rook in late game (though even UB has trouble against Rook in early and mid game) because they have higher damage or stronger push.While there are some DGs that are stronger in late game, you would have to play almost perfectly for the first 20-30 minutes (until giants are bought). So you are under pressure to not make mistakes for a long time, and then you have to slowly fight for an even game and gain back map control, which the Rook will almost always have. And only then would you have a chance to win. (All this assuming even skill and good play on both teams.)If you don't use Hammer or Boulder Roll too much you can be completely fine with just 1 helmet, especially in 2v2. If you're not against someone with easy interrupt (Oak) you can just go max Towers and max Structural Transfer with the 1750 helmet and push all the towers with almost no drawbacks. Or you play good old Tower+Hammer build with only one helmet and because of the cheap mana cost for Towers you will usually still have mana for a Boulder+Hammer combo if they get too close to you. So you can easily dominate HP flag and buy 4 HP items. Together with Dark Crimson Vial, Sigil and teammates being able to teleport to your towers, you are extremely safe and have no real drawbacks. I find that extremely unbalanced.Risk only comes later when the enemies have enough damage. And by then you have 6750 boots, which in BalMod 1.31 are also extremely overpowered.So those are my reasons for breaking those two builds. By increasing the mana costs I intended exactly what you criticized: The idea was that Rook has to make a decision. Either he buys 2 helmets and is less safe or he buys only 1 helmet and cannot spam his abilities as much. That's usually how it works for any other DG and it seems very reasonable to me. His damage output is unchanged.
However, Rook has been made weaker indirectly by a few changes:1) Vial has been nerfed to 60 seconds cooldown (from 45) -> Rook without monk support has less sustain.2) I shifted Fortified Structures in 0.4, which had an unintentional side effect. The old "High" towers are now the "Normal" towers, and FS is calculated off normal towers. So towers have more Health, which makes it harder for Rook to push -> Games are more likely to reach lategame, when Rook is weaker.3) Currency was nerfed to 3/6/9 gold (from 4/8/12 in BalMod 1.31), so there's less gold available for items and citadel upgrades -> Games are more likely to reach lategame, when Rook is weaker.4) BalanceMod 1.31 made Trebuchets cheaper, which can also slow Rook down.
All in all my impression is that Rook is quite a bit weaker, but can still hold a lane very well. But a question I see is whether he can build a strong enough advantage from his midgame to have a chance to win against a late game team. Say Team 1 is Erebus/Rook and Team 2 is Oak/Oculus then Team 2 would obviously win if it goes to lategame. Assuming even amount skill and no kills, Team 1 should have a chance to win the game before lategame, and Team 2 should have a decent chance to reach lategame and win. I'm not quite sure yet how to strike that balance.What are your thoughts?
I'm considering testing 350/400/450/500 mana cost for Towers in next version.
I'm also considering increasing Currency III to 10 gold (instead of 9)
(By the way, I made a summarized change list. You can see all changes compared to original DG here: https://github.com/Schwiegerknecht/ExtendedBalanceMod/blob/main/Change_List_Summarized.txt )
I think that using multiple mods at the same time is the wrong way, but of course it's up to you.
And could you help?
Why does inserting a function into an ability description work, but not into a Buff description?
for example:
it worked:
Ability.HEMA01SwitchFire.GetDuration = function(self) return math.floor(Buffs['HEMA01ReliveImmolation'].Duration) end
Ability.HEMA01SwitchFire.Description = 'Duration [GetDuration]'
in the game: "Duration 15"
it didn't work:
Buffs.HEMA01ReliveImmolation.GetDuration = function(self) return math.floor(Buffs['HEMA01ReliveImmolation'].Duration) end
Buffs.HEMA01ReliveImmolation.Description = 'Duration [GetDuration]'
in the game: "Duration [GetDuration]"
I plan to nerf Fortified Structures 1 a little so that might make Rook a bit stronger again
It's the same for me. You modified the values correctly. And you can put new functions into BuffBlueprints. But it seems like the Buff Icons that pop up during the game are not meant to have detailed descriptions. So giving the values like for Ability descriptions doesn't work. I don't know how the description strings are processed in AbilityBlueprints as opposed to BuffBlueprints. Don't know in which files they programmed that. But I'm pretty sure it's intentional from the developers.So sorry, can't help with that :/ Detailed descriptions on buffs would be nice, though. If you find a solution, please let me know^^
And if you want to do your own modding, feel free to ask any questions you might have.
I'm not a programmer, and I don't have enough knowledge to change the game code. I still don't know what "c++", "lua", "assembly" and other words I don't understand. No kidding. But my knowledge is enough to understand the general essence of the code of this game.
Why the insertion didn't work for Buffs, I think I understand. Maybe you or your friends will succeed.
File: lua/ui/game/HUD_buffs.lua - Tooltip: CreateExtendedTooltip # used by anything that creates a title/body on the fly
File: lua/ui/game/HUD_abilities.lua - Tooltip: CreateAbilityTooltip # Used by abilities in the HUD - many items from a shop become an ability, so this tooltip will also be used by some items
These functions are described in:
File: lua/ui/game/tooltip.lua
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
