Those old generation geeks do not know what true EXploration means. Not only there could be invented rule that (thanks to stellar manipulation, see my astrophysics proposal here) „a player can change the map to his will” but also „the map changes to its own will, as player develops”. This basically means that the galaxy map develops/changes strategically as time and development goes on, and, as it changes, it is also at the same tame EXplored time and time again. Its just like you look at one and the same object (the galaxy map) with additional measuring instruments.
Take Sid Meier’s Civilization for example – the strategic resources there appear as player develops tech that allow to discover them. The metal at the very beginning is invisible/hidden and only when tech allows – it can be discovered. The same for aluminum, oil or uranium – pre-historic era savages had no clue of the riches beneath their feet. Only civilization with some knowledge sees and is able to use them.
The whole idea that Exploration phase ends and Expansion then starts is completely wrong – Exploration can continue even to the very end of late stages of the game if you put enough wonders, resources and phenomenas in the map that are waiting to be discovered. It is the task of the player to take effort to discover them. But this opportunity is ruined in GalCiv 3 – a player sees the whole map as soon as first ship travels through fog of war. It should be exactly the contrary – the universe (galaxy map) should be full with wonders, riches and surprises, waiting to be discovered.
The more stuff there is to be discovered, the more player must “fight” the galaxy map to change it to his will, instead of fighting other civilizations. For this aspect to work, however, it is imperative that true EXploration aint just wondering around in yet untraveled territories. True EXploration means to seek the things the other players have not yet discovered, not because they have not traveled that territory, but because other people are not even aware of them. Take ascension crystals for example. Why the heck they were supposed to be revealed at the very first day? Could these crystals, esoteric by nature, be seen only for those treasure hunters who are specially prepared? Definitely, they could.
Those yet-to-be-discovered riches also give new, additional meaning to influence area. Nobody really knows what could be discovered later in ones influence area, so there is real reason to care about influence from the very first day. Sadly, GalCiv3 is one of those rare „must-have” games in which “map full with wonders” principle is obviously ignored. But, given the fact that GalCiv is a cosmic game and the very size of the GalCiv 3 project, there is almost infinite room to turn that around.
Invent “Space archeology”. Space archeology is a actually existing, very arcane science, few 4X game players even have heard of. But true cosmic exploration cannot be imagined without it. In Starcraft 2 the 2nd mission with terrans starts with digging space artifact and this artifact theme continues throughout the whole starcraft 2 game. After all – if you think of it – the Universe is billions and billions of years old – it is more than possible that civilizations before present time could have left something, right...? Artifacts left by other civilizations/rare space phenomena offer multiple levels of benefits that can be studied even to the very end of the late game, they can be “war decisive”, if enough effort spent in them. A scientific player can escape “smash and bash” player with monster fleets in very late game if only he can make those projects happen. It is yet another level that could be in the game, making it extremly exciting but that is not there.
I do not mean to say that durantium or thulium shouldnt be quickly obtainable – I mean to say that there is no reason for them (and everything else as a matter of fact) to be visible in the FIRST day. Some resources could be obtainable only in very late stages of the game, like those existing only in other dimensions (see my “Astrophysics” proposal). Discovering basic strategic resources can be first steps in a principle that everything is hidden and the player has the pleasant task to reveal the secrets of the galaxy map. The less there can be seen in the very first day, the less you can have in the first turns, so “you cant have it all” and so the better. It is up to the player to decide what paths he will develop and what will leave to others, but he shouldnt be able to have it all. Even habitable planets may not be seen at the very first day because to know if a planet is habitable you have to examine the planet in question with quite sophisticated measuring instruments, so here you have even one more step the player must take before he can have it all.
The more you take steps backward from now existing all-seeing-eye the more room the tech tree can have for tasks and challenges so that player will look with wonder to one and the same galaxy map time and time again. Survey ships could have entirely different meaning for scientific player than “smash and bash” player. There could be projects and plans going on that neigbours have no slightest clue – what the other player is looking for, aiming at in the territory that was thought to be so familiar. With cloaking technology they could be even without a clue that there are entire fleets digging those artifacts in their own planets. Heck, even entire planets could be cloaked, making the military build-up efforts of those predatory warmongers pointless (at least for a while). Everybody can have their own projects, their own secrets.
EXploration can last till the very end of the late stages of the game.
I mean no offense, but if you break up your posts in paragraphs then the probability that is't read is much bigger in my opinion
To the content of your post: there are some interesting ideas, but I think the changes to the game would be too drastic to have a chance to be implemented.
Yeah, some interesting ideas. But the wall of words hurts this old geek's eyes. Can you break it up please?
Sure guys, will divide into paragraphs.
Too drastic to be implemented? Really?
The last word have the devs, but that's my impression. But perhaps the devs can draw some inspiration from your ideas? Because principally I agree that exploration should play a bigger part in the game and there is no *that* much to explore right now ...
I love mysteries! Give me mysteries
Personally, I'd love blind research be an integral part of the game. Only races with X can see their tree more than a few techs out.Mind you, once you have played a few times this is no longer a hindrance, but if there were a few random techs that were "inspirations" or something that could add flair to the game. That said.... while SMCiv was the inspiration for the GalCiv they are totally different games in a lot of ways. SidMeyer's Civ... starts with an actual understanding of actual history and actual events... exploration was a major major undertaking and is thus a huge part of the game simply because of how hard it is to explore.GalCiv is much much more focused on being resource management simulation.... what you do with the resources that you find is more important than the energy spent finding them.
6 one way 1/2 a dozen the other.given all of the resources are needed even early game I don't see a way the devs could easily develop a changing or advancing resource tree... bronze>iron>steel>aluminum> etc....That said... perhaps having some late game resources that suddenly just show up for a late game rush might be cool... but I think GalCiv focuses other places.
I think you are missing my main point - EXploration and EXpansion (as well as EXploitation and EXtermination, of course) CAN ACTIVELY GO ON TILL THE VERY LATE STAGES OF THE GAME and I think I have proposed how. It is the mix of those 4 EXes that compliment each other and that makes the game exciting, when those 4 work SIMULTANEOUSLY. This is why late game currently becomes far less interesting - because there is only 1 (!!!) EX left and that is EXtermination. But imagine if my proposal was there - if even in late stages there still was EXploration and EXpansion possible (and thus EXploitation, logically). It could be entirely different experience than that of now existing when all that is left in late stages is to manage monster fleets in monster maps.
If you think exploration cannot happen after 20th century because everything that could have been explored, has been explored, you are very wrong, my friend. Perhaps on the contrary - it is reasonable to expect that 21st century will have more life-changing scientific breakthroughs than all the history before combined.
Why couldnt devs implement advancing resource tree? I dont think its that difficult and it could benefit the game massively. Its not that they have to invent even more resources. They could use already existing ones but make em harder to access.
I wonder what it would be like if you had to research detection of the various resource types. So you would be discovering new resources at previously explored areas as you play through the game instead of all at the start. Might also be interesting if only survey ships could detect certain resource types. I think that would be cool and make survey ship even more valuable.
I think the scientific revolution changed a mindset in ways of thinking.
A caveman seeing a rock that was too hard to shatter for stone arrowheads might dismiss it until a later breakthrough made him say, "Wow, this iron stuff is actually cool, let me make note of where I spotted the stuff." It isn't that the metals were "hidden", the people just didn't realize their importance enough to bother with until later.
But by the time we got to space exploration, we have reached the point where knowledge for the sake of knowledge is a thing. So we say, "I have no idea what this stuff would be used for, but let me catalog the properties anyhow... wait, suddenly I have this great idea of how to use Thulium!" This would especially be true of your example Ascension Crystals, because while the resources discovered in Civilization are naturally occuring, ACs are designed and show clear evidence of being built for a purpose.
As for the rest, a lot of what you said IS in the game. The very first GalCiv3 victory I got (outside of the tutorial) was a Research victory - doing exploration projects that "Smash and Bash" players don't worry about. Even now I almost always lag behind militarily because I find the game more fun researching new techs and building my economy than going to war.
There'd have to be a major rethink about how resources are used in buildings, ships and so on, though. IE having a resource requirement for something needed early game, obviously it's a bit unfair if it doesn't pop up for 50-75 turns.
I do think that resources that are used for Galactic Wonders could maybe take a long time to be "discovered" ie they might be on your home planet, but you have to go a certain way along the tech tree to be able to mine it.
I have already pointed out that the players should know where black holes and nebulae are before they leave their planet. Someone pointed out they should at least see some planets too. That might work well with your proposal: players would know where astronomical objects are, but wouldn't know their resources until they visited them and had the correct techs to find them. Or until they colonized them for some resources. Later techs might allow for long-distance surveys to detect things like antimatter, or find resources from orbit.
I like the archaeology idea... reminds me of Bablyon Five, wherein a company (Interplanetary Expeditions, I think) went to worlds looking to scavenge old alien tech.
I agree that this would be too big a change for GC3; the Devs have to think in terms of diversifying game play more than background, because that is where the money comes from. It is too bad you couldn't really mod it in. However, I think maybe a more concrete, bullet-listed proposal with specifics would be something the devs could think about for GC4.
GC4? Are you serious? The platform of GC3 is so large, they will be able to add on it tons and tons of stuff for years (and earn millions and millions of bucks ) so the very thought of GC 4 is more than premature. If I was a Stardock, the already existing GC 3 would be just a warm up. Would be adding/selling tons and tons of stuff - there definitely is a room for it.
Triple..
My post was not missing your point, just explaining that the current game GCIII focuses on resource management more than Resource Exploration/management.In the current game there is not an easy way to implement this.
THAT SAID:
Compare Base to Crusade... Stardock totally rebuilt the engine and base mechanics for Crusade. So perhaps in the next expansion they might add some of what you are saying.
Make a list that can be formalized as to how you would functionally do this in GCIII... it will help.
I agree, in principle. However, if I understand Frogboy's posts properly, the gaming industry won't support this. 'Casual players' form most of the market, and they only stick with a game for so long before moving on. I've seen it with friends: they play for a while, but unless they really like a game, they move on. Some of us still play Shogun II, but most everyone is ten games ahead on Warhammer: Total War.
Frogboy once explained it thus: you get a basic game, and two expansions, then the final 'gold package,' which doesn't usually add much new content. Stardock will probably be updating the game for years after that (see GC2), but they won't be able to devote major resources to it, because it won't be selling enough copies to warrant it.
Unfortunately, if it is art vs. the free market, the free market wins.
I see what you are talking about and those are words of harsh truths not everyone is prepared to face
For moving-on principle to make sense, however, the developer has to make the new game that much better from the old one. And it is easy to see how that is the case with Shogun and Total war - the graphics and the scale of the game being the first fields the old game cannot compete.
With galciv that might not be the case however, because it is confirmed that already existing graphics will be improved, and map sizes (if necessary at all) can be improved in future as well. So I do not see much sense of making a new game from total scratch rather than expanding on already existing platform. As long as the game follows the pace of time and its requirements, it should be able to compete with newer releases of the same genre. The old game should even surpass the newer releases, because the same effort that is required to build a game from 0, can be invested into making already existing old game even better. But that is just me thinking and I do not know how that corresponds with practice.
Of course, the game being moddable helps a lot because a lot of programmers often make game a helluwa better than developers could ever be able, Fallout 4 and perhaps Civilization 6 being examples. Fans will do what they can to deepen the game because for devs its ultimately a question of profit, but thats not the case for fans.
We all know what stardock plans for GalCiv in nearest future. But do you know what they plan for the game for the next year or two? Has anyone said anything? My hope relies on the fact that Crusade is a DLC so large - there has been so much effort to improve already existing game mechanics, that it simply does not make any sense to leave it there and do not expand the game for years to come.
The Devs initialy stated there would be a 7 year development cycle for this game (not update cycle). I have not heared them says this has been cut back. Im guessing they have sold around 100k copies of this game (theres a post where frogboy mentioned this number), factor in mini dlc's that add contnet at $5, I'd say atleast half that number buy them, thats $250,000 a pop. An for larger DLC at $20, even at half the people buying them thats $1,000,000, if they can keep the fan bases attention on the game and playing, there is plenty of time/money to be made for this game.
Edit:
Side note on modding, for Crusade, Stardock have redesigned the StrategicResourceDefs.xsd it is now open for complete modding (no longer 1 in 1 out) it is also added to the PreReq table. This opens up whole new possibilities, makes alot of what is mentioned in this thread possible.
So did a bit of digging, we can add our own Starategic and Trade resources via the xml's. However we CAN NOT actually apply these resources to anything in game due to SD linking them into the StatTypes table, which is still locked away from our modding hands. 1 step forward and 5 steps backwards, sigh. Atleast prior to Crusade we could add trade goods
You can post such inconvinience/impossibility as bug in this thread:
https://forums.galciv3.com/482848/page/8/#3678346
After all, these are MEANT to be moddable but actually are not. To do this, ofcousre, you have to be sure what you re doing. My programming skills for example allow me to modify already given values, not much more so I cannot complain about something I do not understand.
Well my modding skills go alot further than that, I am very confident adding and creating new things, which was my plan for today, make some new resources to apply to the citezen promotions that actually make sense (Data Pad (Scientist), Slicing Pad (Spy) for example) just to find this brick wall, no, iron wall.
How about using already existing resources to your mod?
Because dont you have second thoughts about inventing even more new resources? I mean - with those coming with Crusade, you gotta admit its surely enough diversity already. Just make em more important by adding em as requirements to new possibilities. Doesnt that sound interesting enough?
Alot more work changing existing resources than it is to add new ones (Patches, so many patches)
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