How do you kill a god?
Easy: 2 ways - go kill him, or build a tower.
The End.
Now what?
ive been thinking about this game a lot. playing it, playing other similar games, and then thinking about it some more. ive had this feeling like something was missing.. that the 4x and asymmetrical(rpg) aspects of the game weren't entirely integrated, and subsequently were suffering a rocky honeymoon. for some reason i wasn't drawn back to the game like i expected; but i was determined to find out why.
after many games, many weeks, and much pondering i finally figured it out. every game began wonderfully, the 4x and roguelike elements exciting my creative juices as i personalized my path to victory; but then ultimately all of my creativity was funneled into 1 of just 2 possible choices for how to end the story - attack sk or defend against sk. what appeared to be a sandbox turns out to be a ride. problem: for all its 4x rmg mechanics, sorcerer king has the replay value of a linear rpg.
reason: there are only 2 possible ways to end the story.
4x games inherently foster fun and creativity via a sandbox of emergent systems, which ultimately culminates in a story. A beginning, a middle, an end, and a revelation. Explore, expand, exploit, exterminate, repeat. Replay value is a function of the revelations revealed by the story, just one more turn becoming just one more game.
With 1 big bad Sorcerer King's asymmetrical design solves the notorious end-game problem, however we basically only have 6 possible beginnings to 2 potential stories.. kill, or tower. Thus I am now playing AoW3 with my custom asymmetrical RMG settings, because every story is different.
An asymmetrical 4x RELIES ON a wide variety of victory conditions for replay value.
How do you WANT to kill a god?
solution: more victory conditions.
Besides the standard victory conditions, every Sovereign should have their own unique method of emerging victorious;
and the attribute points such as bravery that are awarded from some dialogue trees would also be a great way to integrate additional victory conditions.
Just some ideas..
Wizard: accumulate x mana for an ultimate spell, bumping threat at intervals.
Commander: accumulate x logistics for an ultimate sneak attack, bumping threat at intervals.
Tyrant: construct outposts in all 8 tiles surrounding 50% of the shards.
Guardian: raise mountains in all 8 tiles surrounding 50% of the shards.
Priestess: accumulate x destiny's favor for divine intervention, bumping threat at intervals.
Tinkerer: craft set of x ultimate artifacts, bumping threat at intervals.
x is based on map settings.
Here are some more ideas from RaginCajun, and Natasin.
This is the thread for victory conditions, please share your suggestions too..
This is brilliant. Take heed, Stardock. This is full of win!
Dunno if intentional but I like the concept of bringing salvation to the SK.
I LOVE this post!
This would be pretty interesting, and I agree add replay value.
to be honest, i'm not a fan of most of these alternate victory conditions. they're all just variants of 'spend 1500 mana to do something', because everything (outposts, mountains, logistics, destiny's favor via sovereign skills, etc.) is purchasable with mana.
the alternate victory conditions need to be things that actually force the player to play differently in the first 100 turns, not in the last 10.
just leisurely spending mana to do stuff isn't changing strategies or adding replayability because the game is still going to be about leveling up armies and grabbing shards.
even the alternate victory conditions already in the game don't change the strategy since both of them are just about making a strong army and protecting the shards
what the game really needs for replayability is making sure that the process of making armies, getting abilities, and grabbing shards is replayable in and of itself
there should be really tough decisions about how to manage resources, giving the player a reason not to just do the same thing every game
Dig the feedback - thanks CD (sorry for the lack of dev traffic lately - nose to the grindstone and all that jazz)
having played the game just pretending these victory conditions are possible i can attest to how much more fun it is to play, and enticing to reload.as the wizard i visualize a spell in my spell book at the very beginning of the game that reads: "Wannabe-god-be-gone - some ridiculously high mana cost". i have but a small fraction of the mana required for this game winning spell, but i do have enough for some of these other cheaper spells... however now every cast (and item enchantment) matters so much more, given that there is a MAJOR POTENTIAL reward for casting less. now my mana is a doomsday counter for the sk. i can only imagine how much more difficult this would make the game if my threat was bumping as my mana rose too. managing magic is now vital, mana cost is now a bigger consideration when choosing spells to research and cast, and the expand, exploit, and empire management aspects of the game carry more weight as directing my kingdom towards the accumulation of mana is of higher concern... around mid-game i start feeling my way towards 1 of my now 3 possible ways to end this story: send my champions to slay this villain, direct my people to construct the tower of mastery and prepare for war, or race to become the most powerful mage in the land capable of casting an ultimate spell of such force that even the sorcerer king cannot resist it. going for the spell victory is radically different than the other two, as mana'gement supercedes power and position. additionally, how to handle the lieutenants is now a question of mana, not keys. can anyone please direct me to mana potion addicts anonymous?
...having even just 1 additional option for how to end this tale sparks my creative juices so much more, and makes the game way more fun than just always focusing on an attack force to or from the same enemy... now the 4x mechanics foster my creativity, and i really want to play another game.
as the commander i envision that constructing an Assassin's Guild would also unlock a new unit called Super Secret Sneak Attack Squirrel, who costs a ridiculously high amount of logistics, but can pass through the sk's gates and has an attack that insta-kills him. now, when im reaching mid-game and beginning to decide how i want to end the bastard, logistics, in all its definitions, becomes the deciding factor. am i closer to being able to build a force powerful enough to just smash right through his front door, am i better positioned to defend one of my cities against his onslaught as i finish the tower of mastery, or is my empire managed well enough that i might just be able to muster the logistics needed for a super secret squirrel attack? in any case, logistics is key.
i want to summon a squirrel. cities are now much more vital and shards less so; i dont necessarily have to kill the lieutenants; the fertile land beneath my rivals is now more appealing than their friendship; skilling up my sovereign becomes more important than magic; and having a smaller army becomes advantageous... all for more logistics. i want to summon a super squirrel. as i get closer to having enough logistics i start demolishing my mines and disbanding my troops... i just cant get enough. my squirrel will need to be super sneaky..
just some fun ideas
i'll continue more of these write-ups later...
everyone please share your suggestions for victory conditions too!
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