Zone of Control (ZoC) ≠ Political Boundary/Border (PB)
I know this frustrates a number of players, myself included. The AI colonizes and builds starbases within your ZoC. Now I know Brad has said that this is working as intended, and even threw us a crappy UP resolution as a 'compromise', however I think his reasoning is flawed and I'd like to be refuted.
The closest parallel I can think of is the Star Trek universe, though I'm sure there are many examples. Can you imagine the Romulans or the Klingons building ANY kind of starbase within the Federation's borders, or vice versa? Colonies actually have a few TNG and DS9 eps that give an example of just how tense border negotiations can be, including the right to colonize X planets. Either side's diplomats would go apoplectic that something like this would happen without consent and this could and likely would lead to war without strict overview from both Major Powers.
Now, Brad has stated that ZoC is not a PB and should not be treated as such. However, he's also stated that most people conflate the ZoC with a PB and expect it to act as such. And then we complain loudly that the AI is taking our stuff! The main problem to me seems to be that there is no actual PB similar to the Star Trek universe. My question for Brad would be, why set yourself up for the grief?
I understand his reasoning. Your ZoC is a representation of your cultural influence through the galaxy. Similar to how, at least from our perspective, many other cultures adopt or fight against Western or Americanized values (I'm Canadian btw). This is why it's ok to colonize within another's ZoC, there are no PBs and if your culture can stand up to the dominant culture of the area, go for it! But most players won't get that, and will think it's just not right even if they are told why it is the way it is.
One option would be to have a PB that displays separate from your ZoC, something to the effect of 1/5-1/4th of your ZoC would seem reasonable to me. This would have to be viewable on the map and minimap of course, and should not allow passage of other empire's ships without Open Borders or War. The only time the AI or even the player should be allowed to colonize or build starbases within the PB of another power is during times of war. If peace happens, any colonies or starbases that end up within the wrong side's PB get abandoned or destroyed by either side as they withdraw from combat, and this could be adjusted by the diplomacy screen.
Another option would be just to give us the option to treat ZoC as PB on setup. Let the player decide.
What do you think?
P.S.- The UP resolution which stops colonizing within opposing ZoCs is far too short. A 20 turn resolution for something like this is basically useless.
Space is big... very big even when we are only considering a 2 dimensional abstract representation of it as we are here. ZOC is, by definition, an area that you can control by military presence; so feel free to declare war if you think they are within your borders and forcibly remove them. If you are strong enough they will sue for peace soon enough. If you are not, then maybe your ZOC was not as big as you thought it was
erm the ZoC in GalCiv stops at the border of your Planet, what your seeing on the map is your ZoI (Zone of Influence),
it also shows you that when you hover over it...
As mortili said, it has been established that Political borders in this universe do not extend beyond planets. Nobody controls space. And, quite frankly, the mechanics for ZoE would be ill-suited for ZoC. It is way too easy and common to overtake other people's planets, ships, and starbases. Instead I'd like a more robust set of diplomatic tools to deal with your borders. So you could "close borders" which would make you suffer a severe diplomacy hit, but the AI would know that you might declare war on them if they enter your borders. If someone did cross your borders you would get a pop-up asking if you want to declare war. If you don't, the AI would respect your borders a little less.
Like I said, think of this in terms of Star Trek. Can you imagine the Romulans setting up a base in the Sol System? That's possible in Gal Civ. Cardassian's want to colonize Mars, no worries.Yes space is big, but we are talking about starfaring civilisations with FTL technology. I don't see anything wrong with setting up PB that covers 3D space in terms of lightyears or parsecs, with that in mind. Of course, in a galactic sense because of disc formations, 2D is good enough for most scenarios. Especially ours where the galaxy is 2D.
The lack of documentation isn't very clear actually. Regardless of the proper wording the intent of the terms as I defined them was clear.
That's an interesting idea. I just want something that can discourage the AI from being such a dick about it. Whether it's this, my idea, or something else entirely it just seems unrealistic to me. As far as that goes when you're talking about science fiction.
I noticed back in beta 6 that if I went in front of a colony ship with a fighter (cant remember which kind exactly) that the AI would turn around and leave my system after it crossed into my space (ZOI) However it did try to cut through on several occasions. Would it not be possible to engage a ship that enters your space without having to declare war. Let the attacked party declare war if it feels strong enough and if the destroyed ship is worth going to war over. I know that if I were to do something aggressive and was attacked for it I wouldn't necessarily declare war. Perhaps some diplomatic penalty or demand for reparations.....
We planted a flag on the Moon, but we don't own it.
If the Chinese or even an alien race put a permanent base on the Moon there would really be nothing we could do. Well, we could of course declare war. That is the option you have.
If the Romulans or Cardassians settled in our solar system, it would be because they did not fear reprisal. As Perigrin suggested we need a more robust diplomacy system to deal with incursions. Otherwise, you can culture flip them or blow them up.
There is hope for better diplomacy in the game. There is no hope that they will establish any no fly zones or political boundaries.
the game seems a bit inconsistent regarding "borders", though. you can sign "open borders" treaties and AI factions will show a negative "you have ships in or ZOC" diplo modifier if you send your ships into their ZOC or ZOI or whatever you want to call it without such a treaty. so apparently the ZOI is already treated as a ZOC in that regard.
i guess it wouldn't hurt the game if the borders were treated more like actual borders. at least you should have diplo options to demand that they decomission bases/colonies in your "territory". when i plop down a star base in rival territory they'll sometimes pop up and demand that i remove that base, so there seems to be some code for such actions already. i haven't seen the option to demand the same thing from them, though.
that doesn't necessarily mean that they HAVE to do it. if they are stronger than you, they could just say no - the player can also decline the "destroy that base in my territory" demand and the AI will answer with some threat/snarky comment and (i think) a negative diplo modifier.
Well, no offense, but this is not Star Trek (as cool as such mods may be). And I've got two words for you: "Guantanamo Bay". Regarding that military base, ask yourself-- who's country is it in? Who actually owns it? & Are they historically friends? For those playing at home, the answers are Cuba, America & No. (Its a long convoluted history, but in essence, the Americans got there first).
What the real issue is, from a players standpoint, is that you can't express to the AI that you find it offensive. When an AI flips an area's influence and your base is now stuck inside their territory, you'll often get a diplomacy screen with them asking you to remove it. Saying 'no' gives a hit to relations. I've only gone through 2 games so far, but there doesn't seem to be a way for the player to let the AI know that them gobbling up resources in your territory is offensive to you.
Going back to your Star Trek examples, if the Romulans were sending a construction fleet to Mars, even before shots flew, the Federation would be sending a message saying "Whoa, whoa whoa-- what the heck do you think youre doing?!". This is especially annoying when the guy doing it isn't an enemy though, but an ally or a needed neutral party (to avoid a 2 front war) and you have no way to back them off.*
So, I think the mechanic is working as intended-- because as noted, in reality, possession is 9/10's of the law, and your border is not a force field in space. I personally think this is a good thing, but players need a way to say "hey, don't do that or I'll be angry".
*There is the option of making a trade to buy that construction ship in the trade screen before it sets up base-- but that assumes you both haven't traded recently so you can make the offer before it sets up (the AI seems loath to trade actual bases, though it might) and are sure its trying to set up in your territory as opposed to just moving through.
just line your borders with tiny ships that only have a few life support modules if the ai wants in they will have to destroy your ship by declaring war
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