I'm surprised I have yet to see the best argument against cargo ship sensors. Multiplayer. When I thought about it I wonder if each ship should be limited to one sensor module. Then SB sensors would be far more useful as a bonus.
What does everyone think.
Why would this be in any way overpowered. Exactly what do you gain out if it that is OP given its price tag and usefulness?
Read the post I was responding to. It was his criteria, not mine.
Completely broken on smaller maps, where most players play their games and completely ruin the exploration part of the early game on the largest map. Late game sensor boats get ridiculous ranges, even on Immense map standard. Jorgen, At issue is how you feel. There is zero data that shows 'most players' are having a bad experience because of sensor stacking. Nothing is broken. Its intended. I know you are a strong advocate for nerfing them. However on this topic very few posters (6 or 7) are coming out and saying, "My game sucks because of Sensor stacking"..out of the thousands of players who purchased the game. Look at the 'elite founder' credits. Few of them are here calling for a nerf to sensors. Its because it ultimately should be left to the player to decide.
If you want something useful and OP
Would pretty much mow down any pirates in the area, hmm?
I really don't see that as being OP in any way... pirates are pretty harmless anyway and I rarely bother with them until I get medium hulls and can easily destroy their bases without any losses. Pirates can easily be dealt with with a few tiny ships. One with only shields and a few with laser weapons. Just be sure to designate their roles properly.
You are funny... as soon as players begin to experience these badly balanced mechanics they will complain. They caped sensors at 15 hexes it memory serves me in GC2. There also seem to be more people talking against them on these forum anyway.
Sensors among a few other things are unbalanced, you might not recognize it... there is a reason I don't use that exploit.
I am happy I found this thread. I was wondering why the other one was so quiet.
Yes, it's impossible to reason with a fanatic.Power 50 laser?Is a power 27 laser ok?
if you want to stack ridiculousness, you can get anything overpowered. Stop shooting the sensor messenger and stop using exploitative tactics.-Edit-You can actually stack that ship to 33 laser, but it's too expensive to rush then.
Ad hominem, nice.
And "laser", not "lasers". It was an example.
We've tried explaining why "stop using the best tactics" is a silly suggestion. Cool, you don't mind handicapping yourself when playing, grats! You are the man!
We've tried explaining why games have Ironman modes, when you could just "stop saving/loading the game".
But you haven't heard us yet/cared.
Address this:
Seeing where everything is to colonize etc in turn 2 is too valuable. FALSE?
If so, why is it false. And please, no "the AI can see everything" argument.
I can build a sensor boat that reveals 75% or more of the map on turn 2 for size medium or lower map.
(see videos posted earlier in forum)
I can build a sensor boat that reveals 100% of the map on turn 130 on insane map(largest size).
http://puu.sh/hTkRo/90afaf9ef4.jpg
which means on any map size the eXplore portion of the 4x game has the potential to be invalidated between turn 2 and turn 130
it isn't an issue of if I should or shouldn't. want or don't want to. its that I CAN. That it is possible within the built in constraints of the game and this creates a feature that is unbalanced in the game is why this forum thread even exists. For me posts like this are merely informative, hopefully something gets done about it but I know its not up to me on if something gets changed and If I really want something done about it ill just go mod it myself.
To DakrNeuron Post # 107
Address this: Seeing where everything is to colonize etc in turn 2 is too valuable. FALSE? If so, why is it false. And please, no "the AI can see everything" argument.
Here's why it's false.
Note, turn 352. and I'm just finding my opponents.
Note that little blip on the lower left. That's a sensor range of 12. Even if you do your boat trick, you're not seeing anything even remotely gamebreaking. I'm zoomed as far back as I can be in this screenie and you can't even see my settled area.
Now, you explain to me why my position is invalid. And don't give me "most players will play small maps"
You were talking about strawman arguments earlier?
We're not talking about the lategame! The issue has never been the lategame! The issue is the early game... Why are you talking about the lategame?
Why don't you listen?
Can't argue with people that ignore your arguments.
I'll let the devs decide what to do. In any case, I've stated my case in the topic enough.
Besides, this is frustrating me too much.
Ps. Maybe by turn 352 you should build what the guy above you has, or just turn off FoW and enjoy your 3X experience.
Let's assume that the tiny ships you are using still have a hull size of 25 (so no ship capacity increases). I'm also going to be using the Terran tech tree though in this regard most tech trees are similar.
The late game subspace sensor has a range of 6 and a mass of 14...there are 3 techs that also offer you a 20% reduction in sensor module mass, for a total of 60%. So, that mass of 14 would only be 6 (5.6 I think rounds to 6 in this situation, correct me if I'm wrong). You could put 4 of these on a tiny ship, and when combined with the base sensor range of 2 you are looking at a range of 26...
Now, with a range of 12 you only see 325 hexes...but with a range of 26, you can see 1431 hexes, which is more than 4 times as much....
Yes, I included late game techs. However, I didn't throw in anything super fancy such as a wonder or special racial trait or crazy combo of a trade good on a certain bonus tile...I also didn't include any other possible relevant bonuses such as an increase to ship hull capacity, which would allow you to get a greater range than 26 or a comparable range at an early stage in the game....
My point isn't that you are wrong, just that throwing in a ship with only a sensor range of 12 isn't really a fair test...
You were talking about strawman arguments earlier?We're not talking about the lategame! The issue has never been the lategame! The issue is the early game... Why are you talking about the lategame?Why don't you listen? Can't argue with people that ignore your arguments.I'll let the devs decide what to do. In any case, I've stated my case in the topic enough.Besides, this is frustrating me too much. Ps. Maybe by turn 352 you should build what the guy above you has, or just turn off FoW and enjoy your 3X experience.
Ooooookay
I expected you to be able to extrapolate and interpolate simple logical arguments. I'll spell it out more simply.
How do you expect to get through to late-game without going through earlygame? If you did your sensorboat trick on turn 2 of that map set-up, how different do you really think turn 352 would be than if you didn't? It just wouldn't make that much difference. And, further, anything you limit in the earlygame is going to affect lategame play.
I'm not ignoring your arguments. However, you have ignored or, more often, willfully misunderstood everything I've posted, and gone off on literal tangents like
And "laser", not "lasers". It was an example
Really, I said laser and you said lasers and that invalidates my proof that you can go a good way towards your example question? I'm glad you're frustrated. I would hate to think I was the only one frustrated by this.
I'm totally not sure what you're saying with your PS. I suspect it's an insult somehow.
I've given the issue a lot of thought, even considered starting my own thread....I think I'll just sum up my main thoughts on this...
I don't like how impactful this is early game, regardless of map size -- there is no reason not to just build scouts filled with sensors and rush the movement speed techs....there no longer is any strategy or alternatives in early exploration, it's pretty much set how it's best to explore and there is no real decision-making or alternatives with trade-offs...I'd like to be able to choose between a scout with an engine and a sensor or 2 scouts with just an engine or 2 scouts with just a sensor or any one of many possibilities -- but all those strategies pale in comparison...
I don't like how useless sensors are on starbases because it is easier to just make a sensor boat....expansive vision of starbases should be a strong incentive to build military ones on your borders or in empty regions of space, but currently you are better off neglecting sensor upgrades on your starbase and just building sensor boats....
I don't like how pointless it is to put sensors on that fleet support ship that holds all the other support modules for the fleet....since there is unlimited sensor stacking, no reason not to just put a sensor boat with every fleet instead of having your true support ship act like a support....
I also don't like the idea of NOT having this mid or late game on a large map....the micromanagement of moving dozens (hundreds?) of scouts ships is simply not fun but necessary to provide crucial vision and prevent transports or surprise fleets from slipping in...
I think it is pretty clear that good vision is necessary for large maps, and it shouldn't be something that is incredibly tedious....I think it is also pretty clear there are many people who don't like how this removes a strategic element from the early exploring phase, especially on smaller maps....
Some things that contribute to this problem, and some possible solutions:
If I were to mod the changes I wanted at this current point in time, I would do the following:
a +27 attack or +50 attack ship very early on isn't anything helpful at all because there is nothing to attack that requires this attack strength. instead, if you rushbuild such a ship you've weakened yourself a great deal by spending money on something that is near irrelevant, esp. that in most cases you can circumvent all pirates with the help of the sensorboats (ie. the cheaper/better alternative).
and if you'd really have to, you could instead design a much cheaper design and build several of these to get much faster rid of pirates. nevertheless, I think the argument still has some merrit as it shows that there's simply too much stuff available aready at turn1. perhaps restricting some of these things and tying them to technology would, in some way, balance them via their techcost and the time delay in doing actual research.
edit:
if one were to examine the above argument made, you could see something that appears to be strong or OP in your opinion is rather weak and irrelevant to my eyes. not essentially now meaning I am right - you are wrong, just stating the fact the same thing could be valued totally differentially. in my opinion this line is one of the good things a strategy game should force you into, it constantly requires you to think about "what is best" even to the point were it might be difficult to determine that. as such, even a false conclusion could be drawn (ie. an error made) and if the AI doesn't do all these errors he should be able to beat you. from there on a player could have a progressive learning experience, things that work or don't work.... but the problem currently is that
- the sensorboat is obviously always the right choice because it's so powerful, carefully weighing options isn't required to come to the right conclusion
- the AI makes still much too many silly mistakes (but this isn't related to the topic at all)
and both attributes significantly reduce the fun in playing...
Address this:Seeing where everything is to colonize etc in turn 2 is too valuable. FALSE?If so, why is it false. And please, no "the AI can see everything" argument.
Note, turn 352. and I'm just finding my opponents.Note that little blip on the lower left. That's a sensor range of 12. Even if you do your boat trick, you're not seeing anything even remotely gamebreaking. I'm zoomed as far back as I can be in this screenie and you can't even see my settled area.Now, you explain to me why my position is invalid. And don't give me "most players will play small maps"
I suppose you didn't see the 935 hex range someone did just above you at turn 150 or so... I would say that is impressive...
In any way I do agree that there are many things broken here, especially for larger maps... star bases should have vastly more sensor range. They should primarily be used to remove FOW in your influence and a fair bit into enemy territory, they currently can't do that.
A sensor scout with 15 hex range at turn 350?!? how do you manage that with 67 colonies to boot... I usually have my first survey ships with that range and that is with me playing by some very strict house rules. By turn 350 those ships would probably have 20-30 range I guess... and that is with limiting my sensors to a maximum of two modules plus the survey sensor itself plus any other bonuses I can get.
I'm also not sure how many AI opponents you have on that map, but they look very low. I don't think these insane maps are designed for less than 20-30 AI opponents, there simply are too many planets. By the time you start to have any real contact and you border someone in that game they game should be pretty much over. Most of my games rarely go past a few hundred turn before I start a new game because my power simply is too high... my current game against gifted AI seem to be quite OK, the AI is getting better for each patch. I hate cheating AI so I put severe restriction on my self which mean I simply don't abuse glaring problems of the AI or game mechanics. This is fun for me... but many people can't do this and should not need to do this...
You and I might be able to gimp our self to have a fun game, but many people play games to beat them, not just to role-play and have fun. For me every game is the to experience the journey and not to see the victory screen, I never do.
I really hope the Stardock make a huge balance pass eventually. Me personally have no problem modding or simply gimp my play-style to accommodate my role-playing type games. But in the same breath I see all the flaws and unbalanced features and simply go crazy...
The game is for me very fun, the AI can even be competitive when I role-play my empire, which often mean conscious sub optimal decisions.
My thought re: limiting the number of sensor modules is that rather than "one sensor module, period", make it "one of each type", with the first module giving a decent radius boost and each successive type giving a smaller boost (so that the number of new visible hexes remains roughly consistent with each additional component). So your "Basic Sensor Array" is enhanced by a "Thulium Resonator" and then a (whatever the third one is called) and so on.
This makes the early tech as important as the later ones, without taking away the value of the later ones.
We talked about that already.
(re: this whole thread) That poor horse...
So I made a mod that tries to address some of these issues:
https://forums.galciv3.com/466029/page/1/
Basically:
Sensors more expensive.
Starbase sensors much better.
Feel free to use it, or not.
I suppose you didn't see the 935 hex range someone did just above you at turn 150 or so... I would say that is impressive... In any way I do agree that there are many things broken here, especially for larger maps... star bases should have vastly more sensor range. They should primarily be used to remove FOW in your influence and a fair bit into enemy territory, they currently can't do that. A sensor scout with 15 hex range at turn 350?!? how do you manage that with 67 colonies to boot... I usually have my first survey ships with that range and that is with me playing by some very strict house rules. By turn 350 those ships would probably have 20-30 range I guess... and that is with limiting my sensors to a maximum of two modules plus the survey sensor itself plus any other bonuses I can get. I'm also not sure how many AI opponents you have on that map, but they look very low. I don't think these insane maps are designed for less than 20-30 AI opponents, there simply are too many planets. By the time you start to have any real contact and you border someone in that game they game should be pretty much over. Most of my games rarely go past a few hundred turn before I start a new game because my power simply is too high... my current game against gifted AI seem to be quite OK, the AI is getting better for each patch. I hate cheating AI so I put severe restriction on my self which mean I simply don't abuse glaring problems of the AI or game mechanics. This is fun for me... but many people can't do this and should not need to do this... You and I might be able to gimp our self to have a fun game, but many people play games to beat them, not just to role-play and have fun. For me every game is the to experience the journey and not to see the victory screen, I never do. I really hope the Stardock make a huge balance pass eventually. Me personally have no problem modding or simply gimp my play-style to accommodate my role-playing type games. But in the same breath I see all the flaws and unbalanced features and simply go crazy... The game is for me very fun, the AI can even be competitive when I role-play my empire, which often mean conscious sub optimal decisions.
I saw the 935 thing. It's not something I'd do at this point in the game.
I do have 30-40 range scouts. This shot was in the galactic south of the map, my bigger scouts were exposing virgin territory around the drengin.
There's only 5 on that map. I was playing through a test map to check out release changes. I'm trying to make a group of 15 or so custom races to play against right now, then I'll start a real game. (And by 'trying' I mean I'm trying to make 15 different alternate sets of interesting combinations of traits and abilities, rather than throwing stuff against a wall 15 times and seeing what sticks.
They claim the 64 bit engine might be able to handle 100 opponents. I'm hoping to get there soon.
I have done the following modification which is satisfactory to me...
All sensor and engine modules give a -10% penalty except survey modules and fleet wide engine boost modules give a -5% penalty. All in addition to their flat bonus as normal.
Ship hulls give..
Transport: Range +20%, Speed -10%, Sensors -10%
Tiny: Speed +20%, Sensors +10%
Small: Speed +15%, Sensors +10%
Medium: Speed +10%, Sensors +15%
Large: Sensors +20%
Huge: Speed -10%, Sensors +20%
Fast and Observant trait gives +5% and +10% in addition to their flat bonuses.
This give some interesting dynamics to the game. It also allow pretty decent long range scanning ships in the later game since you can get range modifiers to offset the penalties during a game. This also make sure you get overall better sensor ranges on your ships the larger the map you play on, but not in the early game when you don't need it.
this... is actually an ingenious way to implement a sensor nerf. creates a nice bell curve:
turn 2 vanilla sensor boat went up to 40 sensor range (higher if you use other bugs)
turn 2 (modded) sensor boat maxed out at 9.6 (not higher with bug)
here's the theoretical math:
3 range per sensor (assumed free tech trait - intuitive, for better sensors turn 1)
2 base range on sensor hull
2 base range from observant
-10% range from transport
+10% range from observant
(4[base] + 0[# of sensor mods](3[sensor mod bonus])) (1-(0[#of sensor mods]/10[modified value to percent]) = 4
(4 + 1(3))(1 - (1/10)) = 6.3
(4 + 2(3))(1 - (2/10)) = 8
(4 + 3(3))(1 - (3/10)) = 9.1
(4 + 4(3))(1 - (4/10)) = 9.6
(4 + 5(3))(1 - (5/10)) = 9.5 - bell curve falls after this, leave the highest scan range at 9.6 for a turn 2 built sensor boat. This is also with no movement as adding engines reduces sensor range as well. The obvious perks is negating the early game 40 sensor range, while in the end game adding REAL value to sensor range boost tech and trade goods. fast speed also hurts vision meaning no highly mobile super scouts, your good vision ships are going to be crawling around, keeping the needed vision in line with good strategy.
for those min max folks, here is a late game look:
assume huge/large hull (+20%) observant trait (+10%) max tech (+25% on thalan tree) and 2 resource (+10%) for a base modifier of 1.65 . max tech sensor gives 6 per unit.
(4 +0(6))(1.65 - (0/10)) = 6.6
(4 +1(6))(1.65 - (1/10)) = 15.5
(4 +2(6))(1.65 - (2/10)) = 23.2
(4 +3(6))(1.65 - (3/10)) = 29.7
(4 +4(6))(1.65 - (4/10)) = 35
(4 +5(6))(1.65 - (5/10)) = 39.1
(4 +6(6))(1.65 - (6/10)) = 42
(4 +7(6))(1.65 - (7/10)) = 43.7
(4 +8(6))(1.65 - (8/10)) = 44.2 - max WITHOUT actively trading for sensor goods (I just pulled a random save - has 58 planets 2 resources) theres also the + 3 from survey...but
(4 +9(6))(1.65 - (9/10)) = 43.5 meh I already did all the math lol
I find the endgame a bit low for insane maps, but manageable. nerfing engine speed the same way (if you didn't already) would be advisable. having a 100 move speed ship may have no sight, but endgame that's still a formidable ship that can blindside you from nowhere if your vision is capped at around half that.
I might just steal that.
lol i was about to post this over where your mod is
I'll get an update out today.
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