I have a small ship I made in previous game with 2 sensor modules. It now "sees" everything 11 hexes from itself. I don't recall this from Beta 5, where I made this ship design.
Bug or WAD? I wonder what would happen if I added 2 more... 22 hex range from my ship?
I've noticed this, too.
Yeah which is why I cheat and create me a mega sesnor ship. I don't mind it because the battles in GalCiv are strategic not tactical. I wouldn't be opposed if they chagned it in a future expansion to modify ship detection. Maybe have two different types of sensors a long range version that could be used to uncover the map. And short range sensors that eat up extra capacity that determines ship detection. They can also have sensor jammers and cloak tech.
Jorgen up your difficulty and add more AI's. By turn 30 in my games the AI usually has as many colonies if not more then what you have in this screenshot. In most of my games the colonization phase is pretty much over between 30-50 and the AIs are usually pretty large.
Please... get a reality check then... this is an insane map with 30 AI and almost hardest setting... I could have done the hardest but didn't for some reason. Does not matter much. Having almost 15 colonies by turn 30 is pretty unbalanced and require heavy min/max very boring play. The AI have no chance to compete at all... zero!!! The AI that has the most are four colonies and no colony ships in transit.
The only thing you are up against on harder difficulties are the AI bonuses and still they can't compete.
I could churn out one colony ship per turn in this game and next step was invading the closest AI and take their planets by force... I was also playing this without any thought what so ever.
I don't know if the AI know about ALL planets but I'm not so sure. The AI clearly did scout in this game and didn't seem to know about planets it hadn't visited... but I reserve judgement on that.
In any event... it is OP and stacking sensors is an UNFUN way to play not to mention make certain other choices pretty moot which is a very strange game decision to make. My next version of the sensor boat had 7 movement and 35 sensor range and about 30% more travel range.
ON an insane map I can keep spamming colonies until I hit the expansion roof at about 25-30 colonies, after this it become mathematically very pointless to get more planets with a -30% approval penalty. It is time to just build up and zip through the research tree like lightning on fire.
Did I mention it is boring to play like this and I hope most of the min/max and linear stacking is dealt with eventually. It is not balanced very well when you need to give the AI artificial bonuses to deal with players using OP methods which the AI cant use themselves. That is just a wheel of perpetuating gamyness...
I think my biggest problem with the sensor system as is if I only interact with it a few times a game. I build a few sonar ships, park them....and down. I never think about sensors again, I never touch them.
Personally if we go that route, I would rather all ships and starbases get default sensor ranges based on your sensor tech, and then remove sensor components entirely. I might actually pick the higher sensor techs then:)
Just wanted to drop in and vote for implementing a hard cap of either sensor range, amount of sensor modules on one ship or a diminishing returns which is probably harder to explain in game rules (unless its something like each additional sensor adds 1 less than the previous one)
Imho sensor stacking breaks the game. In MP you will be forced to build a sesnor ship right away to not be in disadvantage. It makes scouts and station sensors obsolete. It removes the fun of one of the best parts of the game: Exploration. You just build one cargo ship, fill it up with sensors and BAM, scouting finished. That's not a fun mechanic.
Drives should also have a cap. Giving Constructors loads of drives makes them too OP compared to moving shipyards.
Or, you know, don't do that because it would be silly.
I don't have a problem with scaling engines. A 1 ton car needs a lot less horsepower than a semi. That said, perhaps stages of scaling would be best. There is a reason nuclear engines are rare on ships.
This, IMO, has always been a weak point in GC games. A smaller version of a weapon SHOULD give less damage. Some weapons should not be able to be on a small vessel (coastal boat with a ICBM?, please)
That said, a vulcan cannon can be placed on a smaller vessel.
However, this is all grognard stuff.
To keep it simple, don't scale anything. If you want to armor a capital ship, you need X amount of armor vs a tiny vessel. Shields, you need X amount of power + shield generators. Chaff you need much more for a large vessel than a small one. However, point defense is a fixed size. So tiny vessels can only knock down say one missile while a capital ships my knock down several.
Again, just my opinion
<edit> oops, back to the original topic. This has come up other threads and I still believe stacking should not be allowed. I do like the idea of a long range vs short range sensor though! </edit>
One possible way to deal with this would be to arrange a hardcap on sensorrange and put this cap into relation with the galaxy size (because obviously, the greater a galaxa is the more you'll need an overview of what'S happening). So, for example, using the old cap of GC2 of +15 sensors this could hold true for a medium sized map while each step down in in size would see a penalty of 20%, and vice versa. This would defeat any any problems arising from diminishing returns on the sensor module sitself (ie. added modules that actually don't add anything to the sensorrange itself) although there could still arise a situation in which a player or AI could create a ship that goes totally beyond the cap. But I wouldn't mind because a strategy game should enforce a player to think about what he is doing, and if that's not the case it's his own fault and no one elses.
In the real world, engines would also have diminishing returns - although to a lesser degree than sensors - so I wouldn't be opposed to those also being reworked in game.
As of last stream the devs like additive sensor stacking, but I don't think they've seen the degree to which this system is exploitable. I don't honestly believe that the devs designed starbase sensor rings to be comparatively useless, to invalidate the function of Scouts so completely at a relatively early stage in the game, to be able to safely see so far into enemy space so early in the game, and, crucially, to be able to do all of this without the AI having the capacity to do it as well.
Linear additive sensor stacking needs to be changed.
Yes... I almost always go for Interstellar Travel as my first technology which mean I get sensor boats with 6-8 movement and about 30 sensor range, that is just too OP.
Just use the method I described before, each sensor you add above the first give you ONE less range, eventually you get 0 range for adding a new sensor. That give you a good middle of the road approach and keep sensors on stations as a viable option.
I can say that now that I've tried the 1st turn sensor ship I haven't gone back. I used to build a colony ship off the bat, but the sensor ship is so much more useful.
1) I no longer waste time finding initial habital planets. I go right to them. Also lets me get my survey ship surveying instead of looking for initial planets.
2) I can adapt my colony ships based on the level of life support I need.
3) Pirates are a non-issue. Now that I can see them, I can avoid them with ease and don't need combat ships to escort.
4) I can find the early relics quickly and get constructors in place before the AI finds them.
I can also say, even if there was a hard cap of 15 on the ship, I'd still build it in a heartbeat, it would just be cheaper to buy:)
Why not give every race a free 'local space' reveal around the starting system at the start of the game, far enough to include the nearest neighbouring stars? And then get rid of this daft gamey, linear additive sensor stacking BS.
So they just mentioned in the stream that there will most probably not be a hardcap but a diminishing return.
They do not want to limit players much,however there shouldn't be one single thing which is the "right" thing to do.
-1 cumulative for each module beyond the first I would support, with an possible exception for the first survey module.
One of my problems with this is actually visual. Once I build my 32 sensor range cargo ship, I have to zoom out really really far out to see everything it sees. I find that decidedly odd, especially so early in the game.
This is what an early game sensor barge reveals...
After barely a dozen turns you can kick one of these things out and not worry about anything vision related pretty much for the rest of the game. There's no point putting sensors on Starbases because they cost a lot and only reveal a tiny fraction of what the above sensor barge example reveals. To add to that the barge is mobile and the station isn't. I'm also not bothering with any Scouts - honestly, why would I?
Things like the above would be fine if they required you to build up a dedicated sensor Starbase, but to allow such things on ships is beyond daft. When it comes to eyes in the sky and their effective range the big stuff, such as the above, needs to be on Starbases only; that's logically and thematically sensible.
The devs have said that they like things like ^that happening. Well, I'm sorry but you're wrong; it's trivialising a large chunk of the game and I'm sure that wasn't intended. If ^that -- turn 15 remember -- isn't a good example of why linear additive sensor stacking needs to be changed then I really don't know what is.
Ah yes, the good ol' "I disagree with your opinion, therefore it is wrong", in pretty much those exact words!
Is it not obvious why it is a poor decision to allow with no limit or diminishing returns?
node10 put it very succinctly:
And on top of that, the AI doesn't make such ridiculously overpowered sensor ships - which means the human player will always have an advantage in the intel game. I remember the devs saying that they won't add anything to the game where the AI can't make full advantage of it (I believe stealth was the example they were using at the time), as they want the AI to play by the same rules as the player. Well that plan falls flat when it comes to stacking sensors.
I considered removing that part of my post but then decided not to because, well... they are. I don't believe that they've exploited what sensor stacking does and instead defend the /notion/ of sensor stacking. Nothing wrong with the notion of sensor stacking but this kind of linear stacking ruins the game, and it's not an isolated example of linear stacking breaking the game when taken to its limit.
They have already stated that they will fix sensors to be limited and have a diminishing return. I hope this will eventually end this particular discussion if it is realized.
The AI don't exploit this sensor stacking too much and as long as you only play the AI so can we as well. I would rather that it is fixed but I can live with the way it is for now.
I feel like we have beaten this horse enough, the devs sounds like they will try a diminishing return model, so I say we table until we see what they got.
Agreed.
Well, if they change it they change it, but no one has the right to declare what is fun and what is not.
For all we know the AI can see the entire map on any level. There is some evidence they can.
If you don't think sensor buoys are fun, don't build them. This is a fox and grapes issue IYAM.
Standard 24 Tile Range Sensor Ships still available on turn 1 with latest update.
Starting to doubt they will change it before release...
First you get angry that it's possible to do so, and after several threads of it the devs finally give in*, and now you're complaining mere days from the dev stream that mentioned it, that they're doing it too slowly?
Talk about feeling entitled.
(*At which point, you've already won the argument)
Just saw the AI build my super sensor heavy ship created in an earlier game and start parading it around their borders.
Also it was so early in the game that if it hadn't been rushed then it was definitely the first thing they built out of their shipyard.
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