Paul announced on the 4/17 dev stream that specializations will collapse so when you choose one specialization you cannot choose the other options any more. Personally I like being able to research all specializations so I'm asking for collapsing specializations an option for the game rather than default. I know there are a lot of people that like collapsing specializations as well as people that like being about to research them all. Please make both groups happy and make this an option.
My two centsI think on areas like the colonization focus ones they should make it be like GCII where you had one bubble but part one part two and then part three.But for other areas where you can see something being more mutually exclusive.. like More powerful engines/Cheaper Engines/Smaller engines... those are sorta mutually exclusive. I would have no problem if the choice locked out the other choices..SO LONG as the choice gives us a bigger and more powerful benefit. Or if the choices actually split the tree leading to other techs down the line that are only possible if you chose "More powerful Engine"If the tech tree is arranged to that I have three choices and I choose one and the other two simply vanish and nothing more comes of it... that's annoying. But if my choosing one opens up ADDITIONAL options because of that choice... well that's cool.
To add to my two cents.... from a post back in february I wrote this:
There is something to be said for the strat of gaming the game... but how about a cool middle ground...Velcro, Penicillin, Post it notes, Vulcanized Rubber, x-ray film, Superglue, LEDs, Teflon, and many many other things were all discovered on accident.
I understand that it is way to late to make massive changes to the game, but I would really like SOME element of surprise, or connectedness in the game. right now the research just feels dead. it is there but it is not interesting. it is like a necessary evil and not something that to me makes the game either more interesting or more fun.
The tech tree should be more intertwined and cross correlated. Researching in Military should open up options in Civics, Diplomacy should open up access to terror weapons etc etc etc. Right now the four areas do not link, and force a separation that is NOT found in real science. I would also love there to be 200 or so Random just for fun "breakthroughs" that the player has a 0-20% chance or so of discovering at random. This would then give a bit of a wow factor. if they really wanted to add depth they could have a random breakthrough create a whole new chain.. you "discovered superglue" so it has a chain "Universal Cement" (faster build times on planet) and "universal Solvent" (faster mining) and "Laminar bonded armor" (better armor) etc etc etc..
I don't see the removal of choice or the burden of opportunity cost to be a bad thing. It is realistic. I think everyone has seen the Venn Diagram that has three circles, "Fast, Cheap, Quality: Pick one... Every day we choose to give up one thing to do another. However, in the game there should be SIGNIFICANT reason to do so. Be that via an expanded tech tree with mutually exclusive techs, or some really valuable bonuses that complement things.
Right now the "focus" techs are really just minor bonuses that stack up, but they are not cool they are not unique... they are as a commenter earlier said... minor bumps to slow down research rate.If you want mutually exclusive Techs then why not have something like Primary Techs (techs that everyone always gets and have to go through to advance down the tree) Enhancement Techs (the current focus techs) These are sub branches, they do not need to be researched but give bonuses for doing so. Make each one much more expensvie than the last so if people want to hit them all they spend a lot of points on them. And then throw in the occasional unique techs that are truly unique. "Phasic shielding" "Temperal blink engines" or something that all three choices are cool and unique but are mutually exclusive in a way that if you research Blink Engines... you cannot have Phasic shields as they break and won't work.... Mater to Anti-Matter...Again it is probably way to late to make these changes.... but the Game would benefit from them.
I recently read the book American Sniper, the story of the most prolific sniper in U.S. history. I thought, hey, he would have one super weapon he used that did it all. Wrong. He used several and chose which one for the job. As an extreme example, a long range weapon good over a mile distant vs. a very inaccurate, short range but very high rate of fire weapon for getting out of trouble. Made me think. Of course it's always more complex in real life, with more overlaps, which reminds me of the 5.2 armor that helped out a bit with missiles and beams. But I digress.
The choice of weapon specializations may be viewed as what do you want to emphasize. You can't have it all. More damage, more accuracy, smaller package, etc. Pick one. Miniaturization means more support stuff, ammo storage, likely less accuracy. Makes sense to me.
On the other hand I have to agree as Lucky Jack says, the choices of colonization are not "anit-synergistic" if you will. I can sort of understand that having learned aquatic worlds that completely retooling to figure out barren worlds might be an extra cost because you have to ditch a bunch of test equipment and facilities to work on something new, but it shouldn't seem to be limited to one choice. So make the subsequent choices significantly more expensive, and perhaps enough so that trading makes sense.
So my thinking is evolving on this.
Just a reminder how 'collapsing' tech-tree could get worth thinking about:
In StarDrive2 specialization is a pick out of three options form a branch. The other two options disappear, but you could certainly trade-in the collapsed tech from other empires as well. Other option is to earn it by invasion of enemys colonies. It'll enhance diplomatics or overall strategy and forces you to think about a proper research path.
The problem with that is that your opponents would have to pick the options you didn't, and if they don't tough luck.
@Rhonin Yeah, right, but it also gets you to calculate more about your favorite choices. It's way more dynamic. Additionaly SD2 offers un-specific research...which may lead toward research you didn't choose or any race specific that others never get. I think such system is way more interesting then the current GC3 options to reasearch complete tree.
Of course I wouldn't mind if you could choose on setup to offer complete tree instead.
I disagree on it being more dynamic. In the old version I could choose to either research one specialization and then move on, two specializations and then move on or all three. And depending on what situation I am in some specializations might be more useful than others.
Clearly they should make this optional.
There are rushers who benefit from less tech, so they can get stuff faster and there are Turtles, who just want to enjoy the game and tech everything.
Give people a choice to choose so both parties are happy.
Also rushers/turtles change their role at some time- lets say after 20 games u just want to relax and chill, play a sandbox game to your liking- why should you be restricted. Once you start to restrict some fundamental elements in game, it starts to snowball from there. People will make a mod that gives that option so why would Stardock couldn't support it in first place.
This also can be true for huge+ maps, where techs keep you interested, if you research them all- its just a slow grind thereforafter.
I dont understand this.
The choices exist already.
Ie, lets say I can choose between minimization, range, or cost. I pick minimization, because small is good.
Currently, I can either go back and pick range, or continue along and pick up the next tier of weapon.
That is a real choice. The opportunity cost of going back and filling in range and cost is that I reach the next tier of weapon just that much more slowly. That decision might come back to bite me if I get invaded the next turn, and have to produce ships with inferior weapons.
By making this game design decision, the choices available to the player arguably get reduced, not increased.
As of 5.83 you cannot go back and pick range, like you mention in your example. That has been disabled. You have to find an AI that made the other decision you want and can be convinced into trading tech. That means UP tech trading blocks can get even more effective and/or painful. It is messy and pushes you to use diplomacy to fill in gaps in your technology. It will drive perfectionists crazy. They will complain loudly and the devs should consider such complaints as high praise for devious game design.
I am hoping/praying for much more of such inter-subsystem details and interactions. Theoretically, you really can't pick all techs and will have to prioritize and the priorities will hopefully be subtle and worth arguing about in forums. That will lead to reasons to replay and try different tech choices.
I also add my voice to no to Paul's plan.
If he goes ahead with it then the MOD that puts it back will be a major factor in choosing which MOD to use.
While this is true at any given moment in time, ie that you cannot have the extremes of speed, cost, and quality all in one package, if you look at technology advancement as a whole we do in fact "get it all".
Things today are generally faster, cheaper, and of a higher quality than what was before.
I will throw in another "NO" to this idea. This was how it was in alpha, and then they changed it to allow all choices, and I think its a much better way to go.
1) It gives you more options. I can go deep in the tree, or focus on what I have. That is more "choice" than making them exclusive.
2) Much easier to balance. The choices right now are not balanced. And yes you can take a pass at making them so...but there will still be imbalances. Now in many cases I may pick 1 specialization first, but consider going back for the 2nd one later. OR....I will never get that 2nd option ever.
3) Affects the gameplay. Others have already noted that the exclusive options create some issues.
Honestly, the only good that this does is it weakens research (right now you can use research to really bump up what you have and save on manufacturing), but I think there are better ways to rebalance that (if its even needed) than cutting out whole swaths of the tech tree.
One thing I find somewhat amusing about this whole collapsing tech tree thing, is how backwards in logic it is compared to some other design decisions. Like the ideology trees; where you can theoretically (and easily) eventually get all of the perks for being horribly "evil" malevolent, and still get all of the perks for being "goody goody" benevolent. So the citizens in your society can spend a few leisure hours butchering babies and throwing them into your Death Furnaces to massively increase your planetary production, then walk across the street and go to the Temple of Enlightenment and listen to some sermonizing about treating all life with love and goodness and massively increasing your civilizations influence because of your benevolent nature. And the devs seem to repeatedly state this is the way it should be and will be.
But then your scientists figure out how to make components for your missile weapons smaller. You think great, now lets apply those same principles to make our beam weapons smaller also. Oh wait we can't do that, that tech bubble collapsed. But if we figured out how to make components smaller for one weapon system, why can't we apply the same lessons learned to a different weapon system? The devs think we need to make some hard choices on those tech trees. But we don't have to make any hard choices when it comes to the entire philosophy and ethics of our entire civilization? We can be totally psychotic emperors that crush and enslave all life in the galaxy, while being loved by everybody for our kind and generous nature apparently. But learn how to make 2 different weapon systems more efficient? Woah hold on there, that is a rediculous leap in logic
Just sayin.
No, it's a choice between "Make all weapons use less mass" / "Make all weapons cheaper" / "Make all weapons more accurate" (Or something like that - but regardless, for weapons the choices are for all of them, not separate)
GalCiv 3 is my first Galactic Civilizations game and the reason for me to buy the game while it was still in beta, was because of the seemingly endless choice you had. In all things, from something as simple as a design for a fighter to the design of planets and the entire civilization.
To restrict this choice, even a tiny bit, would be a horrible mistake. My first time buying the game may then as well be the last time. Make such restrictions optional, which they essentially already are.
actually i disagree here its not a choice its the illusion of choice i can pick up A now and B later or i can pick up B now and A later thats not a choice in the end i still have both A+B wheras you must choose between A or B now thats a choice you need to think hard do i want this or that knowing i cant come back and get the other choice later
1) you've been captured by a masked supervillian and wake up chained to the mast of an empty small boat next to you is a detonator and a notethe note says that pressing the detonator will stop the countdown on the bomb in the bottom of the boat you're on but at the same time will cause a bomb in the cruise liner you can see off in the distance to detonate. what do you do?
2) same situation except now there are 2 detonaters the first will cause the bomb in your boat to detonate the second will cause the bomb in the cruise ship to detonate.what do you do? duh dont press eithar
To have an option to choose about would be appreciated.
Anyhow it is beeing told allready that to have full tech-tree is also including collapsed tech-tree is a logical error, but not a philosophical one.
I do favorize to have choice to turtle arround with full tech or to have collapsing (real ones, not that in mind) tech-tree in the game setup.
I guess MP games get more dynamic with collapsed tech-tree, but I could also understand guys who want to play the endless game with full tech tree just for fun.
Both oppinions should get accepted to have a full flavored game.
I add my vote to make this, at least, optional or to remove it completely.I don't like exclusive choices in a game, it's a frustration.And I don't play games to have frustrations.It's also an illusion to think this will bring different experiences for each game, with each AI player choosing different specializations.The AI players will research different specializations and will trade for them (except if the AI is scripted, and I think it will not).The player is going to get them that way; so basically, "the plan" is screwed.It will just be a boring constraint... ...that will only add more micromanagement... ...to check the AIs to find out if they have the techs.So, it's better to give the players the ability to research all the techs directly.A happy player, is a happy player.
A few notes here:
1) Unless a player gets through the entire tech tree, its still a choice. The techs that I choose mean I will not some other ones, so when I choose one of the specializiations, I have the option to come back and pick it up later....or get another tech.
2) Timing is also a choice. Even if I will always come back and get that second specialization....when do I do it? Prioritizing what I get as still very much a strategic choice.
I much prefer the change.One should have to make hard choices.Before specializations felt not very special.
I like it as well but I can see what others want and would prefer to set this thing optional.
I'd include something moddable, that sets certain techs to / not to collapse, as well as a global "collapse all techs / techs do not collapse" as a tech option. Make is an in game option, with some techs, Like Arnor / dread lords, exclusive.
That way a few techs can be set to allow you to take all 3, like the extreme planets and trade treaties, but you have to choose 1 of 3 for the rest.
I'd love it far more if researching everything is possible, but just not viable. Too much time-resources...
Oh, and having a random tech tree, SotS-like, is awesome. Adapt, you bee-liner!
Easily one of the most frustratingly fun game mechanics with regards to research ever. Have yet to see another game pull it off right.
It is not only choice (or no choice) but also timing and order.
Without being able to research all in a collapse then there will be some serious trading going on. A trade group with many would have the advantage over a group of just 2.
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