I have been in, and watched quite a few games where peoples stock prices are plummeted by massive debt, and then whoever gets the 'last click' on buying on the person, gets all the stuff, but none of the debt. Quill+mathas+arumaba+NL's game one is the perfect (extreme) example, where Arumba almost got right back in the game, by simply and only simply beating quill to the + button.
I feel that when you buy someone out, you should get their debt as well.
Anyone else have any feelings about this?
I was just wondering if that was a thing and there you go asking the question for me. My opinion on this is that you should either acquire all of their debt (causing your stock to plummet) or (and I would like to mention that this is my preference) make it so that you have to "buy them out" of their debt in order to buy them out.
Also can you provide link for the game you mentioned?
You can watch the fight over the clicky button at 14:45 in these videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYrn6-wGGTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_R-ez8lco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQknXipG7c0
I've played a number of games where the winning player is defined by whomever hits the [+] button faster, and I'm pretty sure that ping plays a large part in how this shakes down. Spamming the [+] button to try and register your click with the host before any of the other clients do (don't even try to out-click the host) doesn't feel like a slick mechanic.
That is true, it could maybe have the bidding mechanic, except that I would loathe it if the game slowed down every time someone wanted stock.(1) Maybe just bidding for the buyout? (This would have to subtract the amount you already have invested, and would have to come out of your finances instead of debt.)
Slightly off topic but kinda on because it has to do with buying out, but if you buy out the owner of the teleportation patent you do not gain teleportation.
(1) One more tangent maybe instead of stopping every time there was an auction, it instead went down to around half speed and put the notification on the right side instead of middle, and to that note (again I know) a way to hide the auction notification if you don't care about what is being sold.
I agree, this is awkward, in these situations it feels like the debt should definitly come with it. Then however if that player had cash, it would also make sense that it came with it aswell, then comes the question of but cash is not calculated into the stock price. So it is kind of bad either way.
One suggestion is that debt only impacts if you have less cash on hand. Basically if you have 50 k debt and 35 k cash then currently the company price is affected only by 15k debt. However the interest is always on the 50k. When you buy out a company then all his cash pays for the debt as much as possible, however you inherit the rest of the debt. You can't inherit cash. That would be the most fair solution while not throwing current game systems out of balance, at least I feel like it.
If debt is being factored into stock price (which it is, over time), it stands to reason that what you are acquiring when buying the player out should include all assets that factor into that price, including the debt.
What I imagine we want to avoid is a player knowing they are losing and taking on so much debt that they become incredibly toxic (playing "kingmaker" in a sense, by forcing a player to take on so much debt that they themselves become severely price-depressed).
I also got to see the new limit for auction bids: $1,024,000.
the problem with intentionally taking debt is that it can be easily countered by just buying him out last for 0 $.
This all makes sense, but perhaps if a players debt is acquired with purchase, then there should also be a lose state where players can go bankrupt and drop out of the game when the stock prices reaches $.01. Then perhaps their assets can go up for auction, or are divided among players who owned some of the stock, or destroyed, or arejust idle/dead tiles.
I do believe a "bankrupt" lose condition should indeed exist. Not sure how, but i think it should exist.
If I remember correctly, the minimum share price to remain listed on the New York Stock Exchange is $1, but I would have to double check and find a source on that. I do like the idea of an auction for the assets and claims of a bankrupt company.
The "race to the buyout button" could be eliminated by making it an auction. But in order to not disrupt the flow of the game, use a different interface than the standard auction and don't pause the game while the auction is going on.
The race to the [+] button could be solved by having an auction pop up as soon as a buyout click is registered, then all interested parties start a bidding war.
I think buying debt could be an interesting mechanic.
People could try to "tank" their value with debt to make them less desirable targets, but they'd be much more open to resource sabotage and it'd be much easier to buy their shares cheaply, making their position even more difficult. People without debts would gain an advantage due to having profit from power and Pleasure Domes and having some reasonable amount of debt wouldn't be penalized as much if your investments pay off (so you'll grow and earn more money to get out of debt).
I played a game yesterday with PBhead in it as well and even though I had $500'000! in debts I still managed to win.
I actually think that debt is very positive in early game because it decreases your share price which makes it easier for you to buy yourself out.
Check the youtube video for the entire game (about 30mins):
Yes, you should definitely have to absorb a player's debt when you buy them out. I don't think you should have to raise enough capital to pay out their debt though, as players can self-induce debt through auctions, and effectively never leave the game with billions in debt. Players could do this to themselves anyway; sort of like a 'poison pill' to keep themselves in the game. Therefore, introduce a mechanic/threshold in the game that if your stock value is 65% of the entire market, you automatically win. 1 v 1 = 65/35 (you win anyway). 5 players = 65/9/9/9/8 (you win anyway). This will also discourage players from racking up enormous amounts of debt and take more ownership over their stock price values.
To solve the 'first player who clicks the + button wins' issue: Whenever that final '+' is clicked, immediately pause the game and launch an auction of that final share. This auction would be cash-only, no debt. Let the auction decide who wants to pony up the most for the colony and who really deserves to have a majority share.
I think both of these suggestions solves the problem and also creates an entertaining game experience.
Thanks!Neizzle
How about this?
Buyouts take 5-10 seconds to process. (same as selling stock)
If only one person clicks buyout, they get the company. All the Structures/Base, none of the Cash/Resources/Debt. Just like it works now.
If multiple people click buyout, the buyout goes to auction. Players can bid normally, including purchase by debt. The proceeds of the auction are split according to % of stock owned.
Example:
A owns 90% of B. B is trading for $0.01. C swoops in and clicks buyout on B. A responds by also clicking buy out on B within the 5-10 second window. A and C bid over the auction. C wins the auction, paying 1m, and gets the company. A gets a 900k payout.
If A had won the auction, they should only pay for the last 10% of B they did not own. Otherwise they could convert debt to cash when they get paid out on their 9 shares.
B should be prevented from bidding on his own buyout auction.
I think this idea is really good, alternative winning conditions is something that should be explored at least. I'd really like to see the game moving towards making it more about being successful throughout the game in the market and building decisions and slightly less about end-game shinanigans.
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