Would it be a good/bad idea to, for example, build a ship with Beam Weapons and Armour?
Or Missiles and Mass Drivers, but only Shields?
In effect, I'm wondering what the plusses and minuses are of mixing up your weapons and defences.
Its all about counters if you build a beam / shield ship then ill build a mass driver/shield ship at which point you would want to counter with armour and either missiles or mass drivers
How cute! He is worried that this might be a bad idea.Seriously though. It is a good idea. A great many GalCiv 2 vets would swear by this. In GalCiv 2, you roll your attack and roll your defense. For instance, if you had an attack of 100, you could get a number ranging from 100 to 0; the result would be the damage you would do to the enemy ship (after defenses reduce damage). Likewise, for every attack against you, you would roll your defense, and then you would subtract the result from the attack. It is possible to reduce the damage to as low as 0. The reason why attack and defense type matters is because an on-type pairing will result in defenses working at full power, while an off-type pairing would result in the defense working at the square root value. So if you had shields and got attacked by lasers, your shields would work at full power, but if you got attacked by missiles or railguns it would be less effective. So 100 points of shields would be 100 defense against lasers, but only 10 defense against missiles or railguns. You should see that a heavy investment in defenses can be reduced by a factor as high as 10 (or even more) if you merely switch to a weapon type that the defenses don't work well against.I'm unsure as to how much the combat engine has changed going into GalCiv 3. For instance, weapon ranges are now a factor. However, if weapon/defense pairings still work the same, then you will likely find yourself in an arms race with your opponent to exploit the weaknesses in your enemies defenses while trying to make sure that you weapons can still kill your opponent. There were other things you could do to win battles, such as using large fleets or using bigger hulls, so this isn't your only option. Considering the changes taking place include adding carriers, jamming technology, weapons that can damage on-type defenses, etc, there will likely be a number of experiments to figure out what works well against what.
I suppose one thing I would like to check out is whether in a large+ galaxy the best policy is to shoot for a Paladin type build. Roughly even weapon and shield type of every type. Not ideal against a particular build, but well-rounded. And simple minded enough for people like me. Or, is the best thing to build a fleet with different capabilities, sort of like a paladin broken up into three vessels, each one with offense/defense that is either beam, missile, or slugs.
One thought is that with espionage, there will be a premium on finding out what you are up against, and you won't be able to just hit the diplomacy screen and know exactly what is going on. Also, especially with big maps, the relative ability to "upgrade" (read....change your build) at a distance from your starbases will have to be carefully balanced. My scout was just hit with an X, so I will change my fleet to Y, even though we are on the other side of the galaxy. I see the possibility of decoys to get an opponent chasing the wrong configuration, especially human vs human, but if the AI gets good enough, maybe against them also.
Very interesting.
I like to build defenses based on my opponent's ships and refit when I change opponents. That said, I kind of feel like all ships need shields, otherwise they seriously risk being destroyed before they can fire their first salvo. I have fought a bunch of battles with carriers carrying beam fighters and usually my opponent doesn't even get to fire.
The Paladin would be reasonably effective as the balanced approach shifts 2/3rds of the weapons and defenses into other types. You are ensured that at least 2/3rds of your weapons, and 1/3 of your defense is effective against what your opponent has. In addition, the square root of the off-type defenses would apply to defense.However, a Paladin would lose its effectiveness if pitted against another Paladin, as it would be facing off against a similar build so it wouldn't have a design advantage that the other guy doesn't have. You might have a tech advantage, but not an advantage balance wise.Secondly, looking at the blueprint files, it seems that the Paladin is supposed to be fitted with more weapons and defenses early on than a different type of ship the same size, but it gets this by sacrificing engines and life support (till it gets enough room later to catch up). This means that it might be tougher early on, but it also means that it will likely have trouble getting anywhere. This means that if I knew that I was facing an opponent who was using Paladins, I might fly my Corvettes (medium hulled laser/shields ships) past the Paladins coming to my worlds and target my opponent's colonies and shipyards knowing that it would be difficult for them to turn around and catch me.Thirdly, going specialized means getting more powerful weapons and defenses, something that a balance approach is not. Researching and using 3 different weapon types might mean that 2/3rds of your attack gets to bypass your opponents defenses, but if your opponent instead researches the next generation of weapons that doubles his attack with one weapon type, then it gets 2x the attack against your 1/3rd (plus the square roots of 2 off-type) defense. Furthermore, you can research techs that make your ship parts even better, which will widen this gap. Picking 3 price reduction or size reduction techs for 1 type of ship parts and using those parts many times means you benefit from those stats many times. You don't get this so much if you use a mix of 3 different weapons types, but only lasers has price reduction.I think that what I'm trying to say is, you face trade offs. You could be good at something and exploit that advantage, but keep in mind that you will lose out on stuff and there are counters for what you do. Knowing what your limits are is half the battle.
I usually have a theme when I play a Race and stick to it and make specialty ships as the tech presents itself if needed. Like when I play the Federation (Star Trek custom race) I stick to Beam and Shields but will make a specialty ship to counter certain foes (think The Defiant being built to conter Borg)
Exactly! Divine is so right, its a multi dimensional matter that never repeats and specialization techs only fog the choices and variables. But oh my god that makes the game so fun, to bad tech ages slow this to a degree.
I agree the biggest problem with a "generalist" approach is that it consumes a lot more research, which the other guys (or AI) are using to increase their tier. The fact that a pally against a pally is a draw isn't a problem, though, because the idea is not to get owned, not to dominate. And you make a great point about the load out. With all that defense and different weapons, a paladin build is going to suffer somewhere.
It has been opined elsewhere that a prime concern for ship building ought to be speed. A slow moving tank will have a role only in static defense for shipyards, etc., and can easily be bypassed by a nimbler opponent. I have seen it written that one's task in galciv is not to destroy the other guy's fleet anyway. It is to take away their colonies and keep moving. Back to weapons, evaluating ship vs ship only on the basis of offense vs defence isn't enough. Support ships with special things like jammers, fleet speed, tactical (thrusters) speed, etc. are critical components.
I should clarify what I'm specifically asking is if this is a good setup
fleet of 9 ships (just go with me here)
Three with beam weapons, but, each has a different defence.
Three with missiles, but again, each with a different defence.
And in short to have these 9 ship types flying around, maxed out on only one, coming in for the kill against particular units.
@ thenewteddySo what you're saying is that instead of picking some combination of weapons and defense and use that for a standard for your whole fleet, you want 9 ships in a fleet, 1 for each combination type you listed? I don't think that would work well.In GalCiv 2, it was possible for the opposing force to determine what would be easy kills. Range, accuracy, or formation wasn't a factor, as any ship could target any opposing ship without difficulty. Each side wanted to reduce the other side's firepower as quickly as possible, so they would likely target the easily killed ships. While ships in GalCiv 3 can't easily target the ships they want because of new things like weapon ranges, I would think that they would still try to prioritize targets.In your example, they would favor targeting the 6 ships with the off-type defense, and favor even more the 4 that had off-type attacks that could bypass your defenses. On the other hand, 6 of your ships should be able to bypass the defenses of the enemy ships, but only 3 of your ships would have proper defenses, with 2 having the right right weapons to deal damage. I think you would lose a lot of ships quickly, thereby giving a numbers advantage to your enemy. I think you would lose 2/3rds of you ships quickly in the fight because 9 of their ships could hit something at full power, while you could only do the same with 6 ships. It should be noted that another rule from GalCiv 2 is, being attacked will reduce your defenses for a short bit (which resets every turn), so it is possible that enough enemy ships might survive to be able to kill your remaining ships off.I think you would be making the battle too easy for your opponent. Even if you won, only the ships with proper defenses (or poor attack) would have survived, which would require you to replace your forces. I think you would be better off having 9 fleets, 1 for each type of ship you want to mix up in your fleets. That way, you could choose to attack with the best combination of attack and defenses and every ship in the fleet would have that advantage. It would give you easy kills, and give your enemies hard kills. It would keep your loses low and theirs high.
What you need is speed: two engines on each warship and three or four on each transport. You need speed to get the ships to the front, speed to bypass the fleets to take out the ships defending planets and speed to fly the transports past the enemy to take the planet.
In a GC military campaign, warships exit to open up the planet and the transports are the 'consumable' ammunition needed to take it. Your offensive will go as fast as your ships can fly and as far as you have transports enough to conquer.
Engines are important; how much depends on the size of your galaxy. On the smaller end a couple or three levels will do, but on immense -- you may want to spend some time researching up. Otherwise a few extra movement points may do.
You really need to research out to some of the bigger guns in whatever specialization you go with. I found myself facing off two neighbors both using Beam weapons and (obviously) shield defenses -- same as I did. So after I got a reasonable beam weapon I started to research missile tech. The missile weren't as powerful as the beamers, so I put two of them as secondaries on a medium hull: Two Beams (24), Two Missiles (12) and beam defense (27). Against the AI this will work, because (as of now) it still uses matching A/D tech. If that changes -- and I hope it does -- and against human opponents, this and stacking defenses may become necessary.
If the way I read the weapons stuff so far is right the beams will fire first and will take down the AI shields, then the missiles fire against the defenseless hull. Hopefully shields and escorts limit the time my shields have to hold against their ~ 30 points of attack.
Since the immense galaxy I was in just locked up (eternal wait) I may have to wait until I get 200 turns into my next game to see if the strategy works.
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