Firstly, when playing as the Yor or any synthetic race goods and services does not make sense at all, maybe just services?
I find morale in general is just harder to understand than before, at first glance its as complex as galciv2...and I think that's a true statement. The last build was super flawed and made it way to easy but had something worthy of keeping, that was plain percentages. When my approval was at 69% I saw a easy to understand list of grievances that added up to 31%. It was simple adding and subtracting. That more felt real to me than it is now.
Now its just not that simple, or fun. It has become one of those stressful things can make you say, "shit not again!" or "How the hell does this work?!". I over populated before turn ten with the Yor and thought both these things. The regular races have nearly the same issue. I saw a pattern in the beginning, but as population increased it became unpredictable.
All I would like to see is something more explanatory and simpler than what it is. Currently I can't figure out the system and the bonuses are weird amounts. I have absolutely no useful suggestions on how it should be fixed, as I am truly lost on this matter. Just make sure its consistent all the time, don't make the galciv2 mistake again.
DARCA ;- )
The last version was simplistic, and horribly flawed, but at least you knew what was going wrong."population pressure .. check"Now its a double-tally system, wherein you then do the subtraction in your head, and find it doesn't make sense.I stared at the readout for at least 20 minutes, trying to make heads or tails of it, before I finally figured out to overload on G&S, and carry on business as usual.It doesn't effectively make any real change in my strategy, now I just need to build some approval nodes, instead of loading out on farms.50% a good change, 50% muddying the waters.Stardock, please remove the mud.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your misunderstanding. Take you G&S points, apply your G&S bonuses. That tells you the max population your world will support at 100% approval. Once your population crosses that threshold, every 0.1 population beyond that max equal 1% less approval.
Example:
G&S points = 4 (Colony capital) + 2 (Entertainment center) = 6
G&S bonuses = 10% (Supportive population)
Max pop at 100% approval = 6 x (1 + 0.1) = 6.6
if your planet is at 12 population, approval = 100 - ((12 - 6.6) * 10) = 46%
This assumes the approval curve is linear. It holds true in the early game, not sure if it holds true for very high population worlds.
Unlike in GC2 and previous betas you can no longer use sliders to fix approval problems. You need to either build G&S improvements, build G&S starbase modules, research G&S techs, or offload people. Now that the production approval bonuses are no longer a step function, it's not a huge hit if you drop down to 99% approval. Building farms is a much tougher decision now. Does my planet have 2 more G&S points to support 2 more population? If I upgrade my farms do I have enough extra G&S on each planet to support the higher population? Is it better to have 2 more population at 80% approval, or just add a factory and maintain 100% approval? How might Stardock make these decisions more obvious, or perhaps that's the intended difference between a beginner and a pro?
I believe in the latest video the devs said that the curve becomes nonlinear farther down the line. Not sure the exact formula though.
I believe in that discussion they were referring to the population -> production formula, i.e. 1 production per population up to 20 population, then it starts to drop off (just an example, I don't know where the actual drop-off begins). If so, approval is not part of the drop-off formula. I belive the intention was to combat super worlds where folks were able to achieve >5,000 production on a >100 population planet. I'm not sure whether that curve is actually needed after the approval changes, then again I haven't yet tried to see how easy it is to maintain approval in the late game with high population planets.
So I thought, as well (based on my homeworld Earth). But at low pop, you can exceed G&S without penalty.
c.f. a colony with pop 5.4 and G&S 4.4 still has 100% Approval.
I feel the need to write another Journal ...
Its galciv2 all over again, exactly what we didn't want. No one should be doing math in there head.
It would be nice if it was like 12p and 9 g&s makes my approval 75% so its based on percentages. I like the system just not alot right now.
I haven't had much time to play so far and mostly have been trying out the Yor but so far I hate g&s for morale as implemented in beta 3. Then again I hate managing morale as an entity unto itself.
I liked being able to adjust the economy to increase morale, in so far it makes sense to me. I realize its a game and the devs don't have unlimited time to implement something complex but I would much prefer a system of morale based on societal and cultural factors like at war or not, availability of g&s based on industrialization, how well the empire's economy is going and local factors like the ideology decisions. So for war like races bonus for being at war, penalty for non war like races, consumer goods would be equal to 10% of industrial capacity if that number is below your population there are shortages you get a penalty, techs that increase consumer goods add 5% to that and every 5% above gives a diminishing returns bonus to morale as well. Economy could be as simple as in the black you get a bonus and a penalty for in the red, since economy is generally never an issue late game anything that give more bonuses to economy would also have to be subject to diminishing returns as well. Influence could also give a bonus or penalty but I don't really have an idea for that.
The current scheme seems to be forcing the issue of smaller populations and I don't like that mechanic either, if I want to run high populations and have high morale I basically have to build farms and stadiums to the exclusion of all else.
Exactly! I liked the old system, I thought it would be saved. None the less this way can be saved too, just needs to have less crazy.
i was not a fan of the old system specifically approval being tied to planetary incomethe only solution i could see to keep that system and make it make sense would be to tie approval to total income (as in what you make every turn)
the problem with that is if you werent paying attention you could fall into an unrecoverable death spiral.
my people arent happy so they're not working,
they're not working so im getting less money,
which drops my approval
which means they dont work as hard.......
c.f. a colony with pop 5.4 and G&S 4.4 still has 100% Approval.I feel the need to write another Journal ...
Yep, just saw this as well.
Basing morale only on global economy is why morale shouldn't be tied to just the economy. Its a good idea to have g&s or consumer goods or something like that as part of the equation but leaving it as a set value just encourages low populations especially if its local only.
I think the best solution is that morale should not be mainly based on each planet individually or just one contributing factor.
I'm not fond of the notion that I have to calculate negatives in my head, rather than clearly displaying something "obvious" onscreen.Yes, basic math is "obvious", but I'm engaging in entertainment, and don't want to be penalized for momentary lapses in focus, attention, or what-have-you.I have small children, and I play games to relax; if I did convoluted math to relax, I wouldn't need games, I'd just need a pen and paper.Happy that morale is no longer based exclusively on income, which was ridiculous, particularly if your society values something other than wealth.Not happy that the data has become more obtuse, when previously it clearly detailed problems for you.
I feel like some are making the new system seem much more complicated than it is. The game clearly shows you what your goods and services are on each planet. It also shows your population. All you have to do in not let your population get too far above your goods and services. There really isn't any math involved. It is prefect one to one? no, but that's not a bad thing. As far as I know you will always have 100% approval as long as your G&S are higher than your population. Plus, because it isn't exactly 1 to 1, you get a buffer so you can have a slightly more population, which is great.
Would I like to know in a little more detail exactly how the population/G&S=approval formula works? Of course, but the current system is pretty straight forward and I think some people are blowing its complexity/obtuseness way out of proportion.
hmm, alternately, if people "feel" they aren't getting the whole story, maybe that's enough to say that it isn't satisfactory, or correct?I felt no confusion with the previous iteration, flaw notwithstanding.I felt no confusion playing Gal Civ 1.Now I feel confusion.My grasp of math, Gal Civ, and the obvious, could be referred to as at least "fair".If I notice this problem, I'm sure plenty of others will.Erratic, nonsensical game behaviour is frustrating, and not-fun.Perceived, or otherwise.
I see three options
a.) bring back the old way but without the wealthy population bonus, and remove alot of the morale bonuses from the tech tree.
b.) make it so 8 g&s and 10p=80% approval and not some other odd number. Also would be nice if that meant approval bonuses were 1% for every percent over 50%.
c.) I forgot what I was going to say...
DARCA
i actually do like this system
After I spent a few minutes trying to understand it, I decided I like the new system much better. If my approval goes below 100%, I need to add goods and services. Because the decline is gradual and linear-ish, I am not forced to make an immediate adjustment, I can stay relaxed and get to it when I get to it. I suppose someone obsessed with optimization, er, I mean someone deeply engaged with the minutiae of the game might be annoyed by the need to pay attention to some arithmetic, and I am sympathetic to that perspective, but I am not OCD, er, I mean I do not seek pleasure from the knowledge I have utilized every possible crumb of advantage. And I thoroughly enjoy the fact that the goods and services values don't match up perfectly with the population values. I prefer fuzzy logic and quantum values to Aristotelian and Newtonian systems.
For Beta 3, as Aaron Rodgers might say, R-E-L-A-X, and see if you can enjoy the simplicity of:
G&S >= Population : Approval 100%
G&S < Population : Approval < 100%
From what I can tell to maintain 100% approval you need to have 1 G&S per point of population. I like this new system if not for the sole fact that it makes approval improvements, and approval management in general, an actual challenge and consideration. Though the approval bonuses in the ideology tree might need some tweaking to work well. To use the tier 1 Benevolence as an example; in beta 2 it was a flat 10% bonus, which was great. In beta 3 it's a 10% G&S bonus, which is far less useful.
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