Greetings!Today I would like to ask you guys some questions about strategy games.
1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?
2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted.
3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good fand another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?
Thanks!
I like deals with some creativity. With me doing something clever. My favorite in GC2 is an early trade where I get the faction's original space miner. I am sure it represents me being able to exploit the AI, but it feels good.
Number of turns is 500 to 1000.
The goodness in Civ4, my favorite, is in how the different sub-systems/mini-games create synergies that can be exploited. It provides that "depth" feeling that there are even more interactions avaibible even deeper.
A lot of good ideas already, I'll just recap what I personally like.
1) Diplomacy: I love being able to sell almost/trade almost any resources. Being able to become an arms dealer is tons of fun. The dialog should be unique and witty for each race. They should be able to tell if a trade is good or bad, and compare that to how badly they need it, as well as remember if I try to consistently rip them off, or shower them with gifts. First Contact with dialog and video in GalCivII was always a blast, it must make a return. I should be able to keep a trade agreement at a certain level without ruining every single relationship (some races getting pissed I don't want to invest further is understandable). The longer the alliance, the worse the breakup, but I should be able to slowly decouple from the alliance. Espionage (stealing tech, damaging cities, protecting cities, setting up roits, overthrows, etc). After enough options to really create some interesting galactic scenarios, there is one other very important aspect.
Each race must be unique with a unique personality, though this personality should either be able to be set to random, or to a specific race (Ie: Humans that behave just like Drengin, Drengins like Iridium). I believe GalCiv2 had this capability either through UI or modding.
2) Turns: It all depends, honestly I felt that GalCiv2 was setup perfectly as far as turns go. When I wanted a shorter game, I'd pick a smaller galaxy. Some of my favorite games though took weeks to complete in full. Sorry, guessing at a number of turns would be like guessing at a jar full of jelly beans, but at times 500+.
3) Good Strategy Games: All good games had: Lots of customization/randomization. Specifically when it came to deciding how another race/culture would act. Random and multiple sized maps. The game threw curve balls from time to time, but not enough to be excessive. Learning to late that another species has been behind the recent hostility of another race is an interesting scenario to come across. Being able to sell arms to two races on game and insight a war between the two is always fun. However, I shouldn't be able to do that every single game when I see those two races. I had to have the ability to play a random game that felt like it had it's own unique story taking place. That means the AI had to be intelligent enough to vary it's approach. not always do the same play, no matter how stupid or powerful that play maybe.
1. I can't nail down any diplomatic features that have stood out to me, but would like to see maybe the ability to sell information and intelligence what other races. Maybe, you find out one race is planning an attack on another race, you should be able to sell that to the other race for some money. or maybe you made it up to get them to join the fight on your side. Just a thought.
2. around 1000 turns, in GalCiv 2. maybe 400 in Civ 5, the AI normally wins if you don't by that time. Total War, whenever the campaign ends
3. A Strong Creative AI that can put up a fight, but don't just always outright attacks you for no reason. Clean UI, that is easy to navigate
There's so much potential with diplomacy, what was in GalCiv2 could only be the beginning. I like being able to persuade them to do things that are not in their best long-term interests, but are in mine. Persuade a civ to focus research and/or pursue (avoid) specific research trees. Open border treaties so I gain some influence and/or citizens for soldiering on planets I don't own. Maybe I can influence local social issues on a per planet basis (environmentalism to reduce manufacturing focus, help overthrow leadership so the planets or the whole civ changes their strategies, help quell revolts). And my persuasion ability should be affected by not only diplomacy but might (military, wealth, production, influence, approval, ideology, etc.) too And other relationships (friend of my friend).
1. Some of the cooler aspects of diplomacy involve friendships and adaptive, dynamic reactions. Meaning that everyone reacts realistically when you start to align yourself with one faction over another. But secondarily, it's important that those repercussions don't completely lock you in to alliances for the whole game. The player should be able to change friendships somewhat easily as events play out. Civ 5 is pretty good with the former, but when it comes to the latter, it's nigh-impossible to turn the aircraft carrier that is your reputation.2. I'm always one that plays games on the longest or next-to-longest turn settings. I like a game where you stick with your civ for dozens of hours. Related: I love serialized TV while 2-hour movies rarely impact me 3. Using Civ 5 as a reference point again, I would say that games that feel like "games" totally kill the experience for me. I often tell people that are playing Civ for the first time not to view it as a strategy game (which may conjure images of commanding tank battalions at all times), and instead view the game as a "nation RPG". Meaning, to truly enjoy a 4X game, one should role play their faction, try to get inside the mind of their leader and treat the AI opponents not as gaming obstacles but as characters in their own right. The games that truly foster this sense of "role playing mindset", are, for me, the standouts. Civ 5 launched with statuses such as "He thinks you are trying to win the game in the same way he is", which completely torpedoes the immersion. Never do that More of my thoughts on the importance of role playing mindset (in all gaming genres): http://objectivistgamer.com/?p=1145
I loved how in MoO you could frame others for espionage and get them mad at each other. (and it was infuriating, but in a good way, when it happened to you)
I like when my situation influences diplomacy. Also I want to feel like a Emperor actually talking to another with alot of dialogue and options for everything all the time.
2. I don't finish half my games because the maps aren't totally customizable. I love building maps and when I get tired or can't get what I want I get bored at 200 or so. I want to play for 500+ like I did in civ4 bts but I need control over the environment to keep it fun and at MY pace. This goes beyond picking a tech speed.
3. Control=fun. Choice=fun. Power=fun. Waiting=quitting. Games are slow, but that should only be because the player is thinking about a choice. Not because something takes to long like managing planets or worrying about a super perfect cheating AI or tech ages.
So, I want Choices so I can feel unique and be strategic, like combat and diplomacy even in mage events or cold wars or what color I want my units. Moding really helps. Control over my units and cities/planet. I NEED this, I need combat to liven up the games. Otherwise I play secluded with one allie because i dont have empathy for the AIs I'm playing with and start doing my own thing. Power, I want to do anything I want, I want to go BIG BIG BIG! This is the biggest thing because power is what I want as my rewards. Cut scenes, bonuses, people to stroke my ego and acknowledge my might in diplomacy. I want to know a 24 hour game meant something.
IMO
DARCA
1) It might be best to discuss what features I hate most. While I love the Total War games, I'm always annoyed at how gung-ho the AI is to declare war on me. Their system is disappointing because it can't affect meaningful impact. I like it when diplomacy opens meaningful interaction with the AI faction. Civ V also kind of fails on this front; the AI is only out to win and won't support any proposition that directly furthers a player's bid for a Diplomatic Victory.
I rather liked the old Vassal system Civ IV had. It offered a means for a civilization to capitulate without being destroyed, and even as a vassal it had the potential to regain sovereign status if it performed well enough (or your civilization performed poorly enough). If I had to pinpoint a single most important feature for a diplomatic system, I think it would be a meaningful capitulation system, something that can circumvent a long and drawn-out process of conquest when there is clearly no actual contest left to the fight. Extra points if the capitulation system adds new facets to the relationship that can be developed upon.
Even with that, I think the most important part of a diplomacy system should be a sense of character. I should know what the other civilizations think, they should have agendas, strategies, and plans that can be related to the player with sufficient investment. I should be able to cultivate a relationship with the AI. There should be ways for us to interact where we can both profit, and if an AI has grievences against me I should be able to relate (which is to say, it should be for understandable reasons that I may or may not actively be aware of... not something abstract like a value that deteriorates with proximity or some other artificial construct).
2) I really couldn't tell you a definite turn count. I prefer longer games, to be sure. I think an average Civ V game has good pacing and a satisfying turn count around the present day, near-future point, but I'd be happy with a longer game if it could still be engaging. A game could go on ten times as long as Civ V if it still felt dynamic, if it still felt like I had meaningful choices to make that would affect an outcome that is far from certain.
More importantly, though, I hate it when 4x games have a hard turn limit. Shogun 2: Total War is a perfect example; you have about 35 years to handle the main campaign, and that looming deadline puts an unpleasant shadow over the rest of the game.
3) This is a complicated question.
A big pitfall for 4x strategy games is game-play diversity. All 4x games are composed of a handful of components; city/world building, exploration, combat, research, etc. Quite a few games have had mostly solid aspects, but failed with one aspect, and that failure dragged down the entire game. This happens a lot with elaborate combat aspects, but any major system that is significantly dysfunctional can derail a game.
This is likely a personal thing, but most of my happiest memories of 4x games have to do with the early turns and expansion. This is less true with Gal Civ II, but defining the core shape of my empire is usually my favorite part of a Civ game.
1. I like diplomacy that you can get stuff done with. I like diplomacy where a reputation plays a factor. I like diplomacy where I don't need to work hard on upkeep. In GalCiv 2, I could be the most powerful and most peaceful empire, and be on good terms with everyone because I they didn't want to fight me and I didn't abuse my power. It was not a requirement that I keep making deals with everyone.I did not enjoy the diplomacy in Space Empires 5. It was not clear what diplomacy buttons to click in response to different requests or how to properly make a request. If an AI asked me for economic aid, do I say OK and then gift them resources? Gifting required much clicking for each resources type. Unfortunately, sometimes the AI got insulted by me keep offering them gifts in response to their requests of aid. Was there some other option I could click that would have been better? I was not convinced that the AI even understood how to use the diplomacy system itself. The AI also had a bad habit of spamming messages, and I eventually made it a strategy to exterminate them in order to keep the noise level down. The diplomacy was one of the reasons why I stopped playing it; the system was not easy to understand and I found all the messages annoying.Something I would have like to have been able to do in GalCiv 2 was effectively trade planets to smooth out territories. Having some of my planets in their territories and some of their planets in my territories was a strain on relations (my influence would push against them). I could not easily fix that problem without resorting to war in order to take planets, and to giving away planets (without getting much in return).2. Varies. I favor smaller maps for quicker games, but I do change things to create challenges and to practice my skills. I have played tiny maps with a lot of opponents to give everyone no elbow room. I did that expecting that the 3rd world anyone got was because of planetary conquest. If I did not militarize quickly, I would be defeated quickly. I've played large maps with 1 opponent, so I could not somehow convince them to attack someone else while I built up my might. I had to deal with them personally as I could not distract them. I've played large maps with many opponents and many habitable worlds. My objective was to practice effective colonization strategies while competing against other opponents.3. I consider GalCiv 2 to be a great strategy game. It was good enough that I got GalCiv 3 despite it being Steam only (I don't like Steam). I don't think I need to go into to detail why I think that game was good. It had its flaws, but it is possibly the best strategy game I've ever played. Maybe I'll get back to that later.Space Empires 5 was bad. Sometimes I have an itch to play it again because of all the things it allows you to do, but then I'm reminded why I don't play it more. Nearly everything it did was badly done. The diplomacy was bad. Building starbases where I wanted them was troublesome. I did not know you could design ships with construction yards at first, so I tried looking for a way to tow a starbase over a worm hole instead of building it there. It took a bit of work to figure out how to transform solar systems and stuff. Loading ships with fighters, mines, satellites, and other stuff was easy to figure out, but I didn't like having keep adding them to the build queue and remembering to load my ships. The UI was also bad.The Civilization series I knew about before the GalCiv series. It strongly influences what I think should be in a civ like game, like technologies, cites, units, turn based, even a fortify command. Why doesn't GalCiv 2 or 3 have it yet? I find sentry and guard nearly useless, more annoying than helpful. While the Civ games are good overall, what I find most annoying about the Civ games is the AIs. The AIs seem to play to win, not do what is best for their civ. I find that it is usually difficult to maintain deals with those AI, and I'm usually winning so they seem to be trying to weaken me by breaking deals. I also found in some games that the AIs favored certain kinds of governments and civics regardless of their utility, and they've had problems with me because I did not pick the same things they did. I very much think they should have favored utility more (I would be fine if there were different ways to remain true to their roots if it didn't weaken them in the process).
1. I want to trade maps. I hate the warmonger penalties in Civ 5. If I get attacked I shouldn't be penalized for winning the war.
2. It's a long mop up phase that is tedious. The end game is usually boring and long t2urn times for AI to process. I like about 12 hours of real time.
3. My favorite part of gal civ2 was the scramble for planets.
>1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?
With the major civs, I particularly enjoy trading resources and coordinating wars against mutual enemies. With enemies I enjoy extorting them out of resources in order to end a war I'm winning. I also tend to enjoy using the votes in the senate (UN, whatever) to pass resolutions that give my empire a boost (it would be nice to be able to bribe or trade with other civs to get them into voting my way or maybe have them try to get me to vote their way). On a side note, I'd like it to be possible to improve my relations with a civ I piss off, in a lot of games once you piss another civ off they pretty much hate your guts for the rest of the game it would be nice to have relations with major civs be able to change over time, as I recall Sid Meire's Alpha Centauri did a pretty good job of that.
My favorite diplomatic interactions actually tend to be with minor civs like the city states in Civ 5. Allying with them in Civ 5 gave you lots of fun little bonuses like luxury resources, the occasional free unit, a boost to science or culture or faith and crucially extra votes in the world senate.
However my favorite diplomacy ever in a game was Star Trek: Birth of the Federation which had numerous unique minor races who you could trade with, form alliances with (which crucially extended your ships range) and eventually bribe into joining your empire if you didn't just conquer them outright. And best of all if you could get them to join you or conquer them, you got access to special improvements which only that minor civ could build and which made your whole empire stronger militarily, improved research or wealth, etc. It made diplomacy with these minor civs crucial to winning the game and forced you to focus on which minor civs you wanted to focus on and to what degree. Do you want to bribe lots of them to form more trade relationships? try to form an alliance with one who's shipyard would extend your ships range deep into an enemies territory? or focus on one civ and try to bribe it into joining you outright? I would love to see the minor civs in Gal Civ III function as they do in Star Trek: BOTF.
>2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted.
Personally, I'm partial to long games on large maps. That said I like a feature that allows me to adjust the pace of the game.
>3. Consider all The 4X strategy games that you have ever played. How do you define what is a good strategy game or a bad one? To you what makes one strategy game good and another one bad? Consider different memories you have of those games can you remember the parts that made you enjoy that game the most?
1: Good balance and different viable strategies to win the game as well as options both at the start (civ traits) and during the game (social policies,etc) that allow me to tweak my civ into something unique which fits my play style.
2: Good pacing with a minimum of grinding and dull upkeep and games which generally go late into the tech tree before victory (unless you play really well or poorly); but rarely get all the way to the tech tree's end.
I like a game that continually gives me new things to play with (units, social policy) or ways to upgrade my civ. A well planned quick military strike should feel like it goes quickly and smoothly and a protracted war against a tough enemy should feel like a prolonged slugfest. As much as I like Star Trek: BOTF in its unmodded form its a very good example of a game with very poor pacing, expansion and conquest can both go very slowly, building up a colony into something useful takes forever, the game forces you to upgrade your colonies after tech advances and it takes forever, on larger maps you and your enemies almost always get to the end of the tech tree long before victory and at that point you likely have absurd amounts of money that you can't possibly spend.
In contrast CIV: 5 (the Civ series in general really) and Alpha Centauri both have pretty damned good pacing. They give you new toys on a continual basis, wars tend to take an appropriate amount of time, building up colonies doesn't feel too slow or too fast (although it does feel a little slow for late game colonies), new tech doesn't force you to upgrade your colonies existing buildings, you rarely become absurdly wealthy unless you're playing really well and the game generally lasts late into the tech tree; but rarely all the way to the end.
3: Military units that feel varied and have unique abilities. A general gripe I have with most 4X games is that the military units tend to be too generic in comparison the more varied units in say a real time strategy game like Starcraft. Gal Civs ship editor obviously gives you a lot of freedom aesthetically; but I'd like the capacity to give my ships weapons or abilities that let them fight, elude or delay an enemy in ways other than just fighting them toe to toe. A few types of ships I'd like to be able to design might give me....
1:The ability to add ranged or siege type weapons that let you hit from a few hexes away would be nice and I doubt it would be too hard to add and balance (Maybe a ranged attack takes a turn to charge?).
2:An area of effect attack that can hit units in several hexes at once (again charge time?).
3:A territorial denial ability that lets me put up some sort of temporary barrier or mine field to slow or divert an enemy's advance or damage enemies that move into the effected area. On a side note being able to build permanent barriers or mine fields with constructors would also be pretty cool.
4:Kamikaze units.
5: And finally a cloaking or invisibility ability which may be able to be countered with really good sensors at close range. I heard you guys say that cloaking is hell with the AI; but it adds a fun stealthy way to fight which can really mix things up.
I hate the warmonger penalties in Civ 5. If I get attacked I shouldn't be penalized for winning the war.
God yes. Being penalized for wiping someone out who attacked you is BS and I hate how long the penalty lasts. I mean I can conquer someone in 0 AD and everyone still hates my guts in the year 2000 AD.
Making other civs temporarily leery of me is one thing; but forcing me down the path of being an international pariah for all time because I conquered one annoying civ really undermined the diplomacy in Civ 5.
1. a. receiving propositions from the ai. + b. trading parts of the map ("ill give you this city if youll attack so-and-so" - i want to hear this from the ai). when i dont attack after receiving the city, i want to hear "i have informed the other leaders of your traitorous ways, prepare to die".
2. ~300.
3. more does not equal better: elegance, focus, and a cohesive, immersive atmosphere / character / ui = good. clicking the turn button over and over in wait; and arbitrary complexity = bad.
>
SE5's diplomacy amused me. But I found the SE* series so unchallenging that I always play Team Mode, all humans (i.e. me alone) vs. all AIs. Then I set "many" AIs on "hard" difficulty, and hope for 17-19 of them. (If I get "only" 12, I restart the game.) They team up on contact, trade techs, all sabo me with intel from afar, and tag-team me with streams of their entire production. And I still kill them faster than they can get to me, so I never see unified fleet furballs like in SE3. I like to stare at the empire scores graphs, I can tell when each AI meets me because that's the downward bend in its graphs as they all plunge toward 0.
I only ever played Captain Kwok's Balance Mod, so I dunno if the diplomacy is his or original. Basically, I ignore every AI's 1st request, promptly respond by declaring war, and ignore it thereafter. Heck, Team Mode already means they're all allied with each other and at war with me.
I actually won one game of SE3, all the way through the mop-up phase, until I conquered the last AI's last planet. The end-of-game victory splash was ... one tiny pop-up window, roughly half the size of the "Post Reply" button at the bottom of this editor, saying You won! with an OK button. I've long suspected that SE3 was written in Visual Basic.
In SE5, I've never lasted longer than about turn 150, or earlier when I hit the midgame Stolen Colonizer Tri-plosion phase (where my boarding party frigates have stolen one of each colonizer type I don't already have, and suddenly I can colonize all of the equal number of ice and gas planets throughout my sprawling backfield -- this could be 100 extra planets). Micromanaging in SE5 means turn time increases roughly linearly with things to do, until every turn takes me 60-90 minutes (not kidding). Somewhat before then, I always realize that the game simply has become not fun, and doesn't captivate me. Every planet feels the same, every tactical ship combat is the same, it's just more of the same. (I loves tactical combat, but even I can't stomach that much of it.) Even when you can research and build a class-100 ringworld (their planets are hexless lists, but otherwise similar to here: tiny 5, small 10, medium 15, large/homeworld 20, huge 25 -- so ringworlds are supposed to be a Big Deal), there just isn't enough variety in the ground facilities to build thereupon.
The SE* series caused me to think deeply about gaming UI, which I'm still mulling. Roughly, my grand idea is that a UI (and not just for games) must adapt to scale up to the complexity of its environment. As the scope of your thinking increases, the tools at your fingertips, and the level of detail (LOD) you see, also must increase. Hence the vocabulary itself evolves.
Complexity is hierarchical (or we seem to make it so, because we can't cope otherwise). Management also becomes hierarchical: we chunk modules into self-contained units, maybe with one vice-president to speak upward on behalf of each (and flog downward to meet goals). Zooming out to higher LODs, we sweep the same human gaze across a vista that must be capped at similar total complexity ... but with the grain size now magnified, so that every node / pixel / unit encapsulates a complex state of its own. What do you look for, and how can you be sure you're not missing anything?
This seems to require automation, but the player needs more control than a canned set of ministers. (Partially, I lean this way because I think I can script code better than any stock writer-of-ministers, and I'm willing to compete vs. other scripters). Maybe the first thing we do is embed Common Lisp (because we know it ends up in there somewhere anyways SE5, and every 4x I've seen (including, ahem, GCs 2 and 3), all suffer from the click-only UI: what you do on turn 1 by clicking one pixel at a time is the same thing you do in turn 200, just more of it. There is never an upward-shift, or lifting-of-level, where you define your own theater / unit / department, tell it how it shall run itself and report to you, and then let it go and trust that it works the way you want it to. GC2's ministers were useless to me because in 10 minutes, I determined that I shall play the game a certain way, and ... they didn't. SE*'s ministers are similarly shallow-in-scope. N.B. an AI is just a null player with all ministers turned on, which is proof that the ministers aren't enough.
Many of these ideas also cover war boardgames (with hex maps, c.f. Avalon Hill), probably for similar reasons. We need UI tools to make what-if tests, compare alternatives between 2+ strategic choices, and generally see higher-level information superimposed upon (or floating above) the map -- which creates interesting problems in data visualization.
I've focused almost entirely on the visualization part of a game UI, and kind of waved off the issues of diplomacy, game length, and immersion. It's because a bad UI is such a roadblock that it eventually (or quickly) trumps everything else, and no amount of 4X fun can overcome it enough to keep me hooked. Bad micro is the antithesis of fun. If I ever get around to writing my own, it'll have boring graphics, generic components ... but a script language capable of writing a C++ compiler (hehe), and UI elements that let you compose and doodle. It's such an unexplored niche (even today).
As for the rest, I lack experience, so I'll abstain. I've never seen a diplomacy worth beans (so I have zero expectations), game length depends on how inefficient the UI is (I almost never finish any 4X game), and nothing immerses me yet. I find beauty in numbers, and in running an empire just a bit more efficiently than the other guy. I'm open to any kind of game world machinations ... but nothing can mask a poor ability to juggle the numbers. If they're important at all, then let me run an entire empire's worth of them my way, to my satisfaction, without demanding my constant attention.
i.e. let me defun
1. To me, civ5 is the epitome of diplomacy. The most important features are visualization of emotions governing the Ai ("I'm REALLY PISSED AT YOU!"), and the ability to manipulate the AIs behaviour through interaction ("if I sell you this town, will you agree to go to war with my enemy?"). Trading goods is of secondary concern to me, although it is expected.
2. 150-200 turns. Anything above 300 feels like it's just dragging on, often with me just pressing end turn over and over to get to the next tech.
3. Escalation of game mechanics is what makes a 4x game great. That means old, weak things are replaced by new, shiny things. And it also means that the width of the mechanics increase as the game goes on. For example Civ5. After a while you can discover iron/steel resources which you use to train special units. The iron thingies weren't on the map to begin with. That's an added mechanic that didn't exist at the start of the game. Similarly the "world congress" mechanic in Civ5 that occurs after you research printed paper. Also both these examples are non-random, you can anticipate and prepare for them a little bit. They both contribute to making the "gameboard" feel altered as the game progresses without being a deus ex machina. Coincidentally, this is the greatest failure of AOW3.
Unique factions are extremely important. My baseline is that, starting up a game for the first time, I should feel that each race would be interesting for a playthrough. The faction differentiation in Civ5 is an example of how it was done wrong with minuscule differences that often force the player down a certain path. Shogun 2 totally failed at it, whereas Rome 2 actually did it slightly better because you also chose starting area when choosing faction. Endless Legends does a great job with making the factions feel different - unique units, unique heroes, unique cities, unique techs, unique playstyle.
- I like Elemental : Legendary Heroes research trading system verses the common tech trading systems that other games have.
- Don't allow trading of credits. It turns it into a zero sum system that isn't that fun. Allow trading resources, tech credits, ships, planets ... etc. But do not allow credits. Also, do not display the perception value that Elemental displays.
- Civ 5's BNW is pretty decent as far as diplo goes in a 4x game.
- My last 5 games of LH is 208, 212, 264, 200, 232. I'd say around 200 on medium map.
- Civ 5 games are about 350 turns ea. A side note on this. Between GnK and BNW the game has a number of systems that makes a 350 turn game not feel like forever.
Here are some traits of really good games. Some of these are suggestions for LH 2.0, E2015, as well as GalCiv3
- Combat strategy is the most defining factor. AoW3,
- Combined arms. Civ5
- Oh f**k moments. Such as XCOM. I like to see something that either is scary or let's me know I dun f'd up. Master of Magic and LH both meet this criteria where you have some really strong monsters near your starting area that you can't beat with your starting army.
- Zone of Control is a must. I should be able to position my units in a way to slow the enemy. Civ5, LH tactical (can the strategy lair get something like this too)
- Flanking and for games not in space back attacks and positional attacks.
- AI personality. Civ4 and Civ5
- Good economy. Civ5 BNW nailed the economy game I think.
Traits of bad games
- Crappy music = crappy game. I've been put to sleep playing some 4x games.
- Too simplistic combat
Allright, before I get to the questions - my favourite 4x games are Civ4 and GalCiv1+2, so this will be the games I will refer to.
My favourite diplomacy memory ever dates back to GalCiv1.
I was building several starbases in neutral space close to the Arcean border to prepare my assault, when suddenly the Arcean contacted me and told me "Hey, we see what you're doing there with your starbases, please stop this or...!". That was awesome (and quite shocking) because it was a very meaningful diplomatic interaction. Most of the time, diplomacy in 4x games is just the formulaic exchange of money, trade goods and techs which seem pretty disconnected from the rest of the game.
I think this is what I like most about diplomacy (and rarely get it in any game): Meaningfull Context. I want the AI to consider and reference what is going on on the map or in other aspects of the game. The way religion played into diplomacy in Civ4 for example was nice. I want to have the feeling that I am really talking about the current situation, and not only make generic deals.
Can't give you a precise number, but I prefer to have loooooong games (most of the time, I play on the biggest map size, and I love Civ4 in marathon mode. The main reason for me is that faster games never feel right in regards of tactical combat vs. research: Playing Civ4 in regular speed means that often when I start a big war (like an invasion of another continent), my reinforcements will be obsolete when they arrive at the front. Slow game speed means I can have several smaller wars on one techlevel and every new unit type is a big deal.
There's a lot of obvious stuff (good userinterface etc) which are true for every game and I won't go into that, but here are two points specific to 4X-games:
Meaningful randomly generated maps. It's always bad if a map is just a lot of squares (or hexagons) to be conquered. There must interessting stuff on the map which can create problems, dilemmas and points of conflict.
As much as I Love GalCiv2, I always thought that it is lacking in this regards because planets and ressources aside, there isn't much going on on the map (asteroids and anomalies are nice, but don't have much impact on the big picture). [I hope that GalCiv3 will be better in this regards].
It's one of the reasons I like Civ4 - the placement of the strategic ressources play a big part in shaping the strategies and conflicts. For example, I remember one game with a small barren island next to the continent on which I started. Just place for one city, and it was a horrible place to build one - but whoever controlled that city controlled it's coast and thus access to another small island further out in the ocean which contained the only reachable source of iron. Before we got the ability to sail on deep water (which took some time since I played marathon), this situation and control of this damned city shaped the entire strategic and diplomatic conflicts on this continent.
And that kind emergent gameplay which can come from random maps if the ingredients are right is what makes a great 4X game.
Have the AI play by the same rules I hate it when my strategy is sound and all is going according to plan - and then the AI beats me to a wonder which it coudn't have finished if it had played by the same rules as I. That is something I loved about GalCiv: as long as I didn't a choose the higher difficulty settings, I could be sure the AI wouldn't cheat and I could trust me calculations. Espionage and monitoring the AI is absolute worthless if you can't use your intel to predict what will happen because the AI can just insta-build all kinds of stuff.
1. What specific features of diplomacy do you traditionally like the most? I want you to be as specific as you can be. Which parts of diplomacy from any game do you like the most? What parts do you remember long after playing the most?in order of preference: 1: "declare war" is the one i like the most because it's the easiest way to expand once the initial rush for colonies has stopped.2: "non aggression pact" is second, it means basically "i'm too weak to declare war on you so i need a bit time to prepare"3: "trade treaty" and "technology treaty" which is just "gimme the means to prepare to declare war on you"4: "make peace" because "my unrest is too high for now, we'll play again later" 5: "give gifts" because "i'm not ready to declare war on you, here is a toy, so leave me alone until i'm ready"6: "trade things", useless because "i don't trade things with guys i intend to conquer except if you have things i need to prepare to declare war on you more quickly"7: "declare war on this guy", useless because "no need, i'll take care of that myself and i don't want you to steal the things i want to conquer"8: "trade technology", my least favorite one because usually, it shortens the game and i don't like the fact that the exchanged technology are immediately available to use on a large scale.
As to why, i'd say that's because i'm playing to win and have fun, and conquering and expanding is the easiest and most immediate way to achieve win and fun.War is the easiest way because there is little drawback to going to war and a lot of rewards.War is the most fun because strategy games focus a lot of their gameplay in the combat system.Therefore, diplomacy is either a funny toy to play with or a tool to stall the AI until you're ready to go to war.
So, in order to stay in the subject, i'd say that the diplomacy i'd like is one which would bring as much in-game advantages than going to war AND an equally fun diplomacy system than the combat system.
About game examples, i'd say Star Wars Rebellion (or supremacy... wasn't there a naming issue in the US?) in which you sent diplomat characters to convince planets to join your side. A simple system but a fun one because you have diplomatic conquering units that were used almost the same as military units.
I also liked some parts of the Paradox games Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron. The first one because you could not conquer completely one contry in one war (except for small countries). When asking for peace, the winner got victory points according to occupied ennemy territories and he could spent these points to annex some of the territories of the defeated country. There was also a drawback for going to war unprovoked (lose stability points, a very important variable)
And since trading technology is part of most of the diplomacy systems, i'd say the way Hearts of Iron handle the technology exchange through the use of blueprints is the best i've seen until now. Blueprints means that after acquiring technology through diplomacy, you just have a bonus to develop said technology, but you still have to develop it.I always saw research points as an abstraction for the developpement process as well as for the industrialisation process. I mean, if tomorrow a research center develop quantic computers technology, it will still take years before you buy a quantic computer the same way you buy a nowaday computer.But in most games, when the technology is available, it's immediatly operational and can be build in case of buildings or integrated in ship designs. It means that the prototyping, all tests, user feedbacks and standard production solution have been done/solved: it's more than just books and scientists knowing them, it includes the society assimilation of said technology.
One last thing about technology is the fact that Europa Universalis gave technology research bonuses to all countries less advanced than the leading country in a particular field: it represents the fact that ideas travels beyond the frontiers and that it's impossible to have 2 civilizations next to one another, one using smartphones, satellites and airplanes and the other using telegraph, steam engines and horses.
2. Looking back, how many turns do your favorite games last? This is important to know the specific number of turns the game in Question lasted. The longest possible. Same reasons as other players.
Good points from a military point of view:- Slow pace, i do like starcraft and the likes, but i prefer turn based for the impression to think strategically and not tactically.- Big, limited and powerful military units such as heroes in fantasy games or powerful ships in space games (like admiral ships in Sins of a Solar Empires). It makes me really feel like the leader of a country with powerful and symbolic units. Real life examples are numerous, from the USS Enterprise to IJN Yamato, HMS Hood and many other.A simple feature of Hearts of Iron was the fact that you could check your ships to know which ones it has sunk, if any. It brings nothing to the game, except once a ship has a glorious hunting score, the player will try to keep it alive, so it brings something to the player.- The ability to retreat (not always available, i'm looking at you, Legendary Heroes!) as a meaningful strategy: the cost of healing/reparing must always be far less than the cost of rebuilding else, it's simplier to fight to the end which is not realistic.- The ability to raise an army quite quickly: it's quite rare in turn based games and it's a shame because the ability to react quickly to a threat would make wars less easy for both players and AI.- the limitation of force projection, Hearts of Iron tried a bit with its supply system but it wasn't this satisfactory the way they implemented it. Still, limiting the ability to send military units outside your borders make waging wars more difficult.- the ability to design military units
Bad points from a military point of view:- having to spend one move of an entire fleet to destroy only one ship on a stack of dozens of ships just because they're not in fleet.- having no need of small units once you have big ones- unbalanced weapons (like plasma cannons in revered MoO2)- army building time superior to war time: it makes no sense that you can completely wipe out the enemy main army and then conquer most of its territory with little to none resistance since army raising takes such a long time. - no retreat ability
Good points from an empire building point of view:- Clear borders: it bugs me insanely to see unauthorized foreign military units cross my borders and make themselves at home. I was very happy with Civ5 about this.- no artificial limits on expansion such as unrest, expansion limits should mimic reality (or what i understand of it ^^') such as economically inefficient colonies, population not growing faster than a horde of aphrodisiac-drugged rabbits and big infrastructures investments (roads, schools, health care, administration offices and such).It's also okay to put an "administration expense" the more colonies/cities/population you have: "Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy"- Internal political choices, such as the social policies of Civ5- Specialization of cities/colonies such as the fortress/towns/conclaves of Legendary Heroes- good technology tree (but it's quite vague, i know x) )
Bad points from an empire building point of view:- rush buy: a project needing 100 days for one man to complete cannot be done in one day by 100 men. - new building/ship coming from a new tech that is less efficient that the building/ship of the old tech.- no statistic/summary screens: i need to have lists of cities/colonies, of units, of armies/fleets, of buildings with their characteristics that i can sort and filter the way i like and from which i can jump to such or such selected item, be it a planet, unit or whatever. If you think you have put enough of these screens, you are wrong! There are never enough of these screens! - unclear properties of a building or ability: i need to know what is what.
Well i'll stop here
For those who read all, well done!For those who don't, don't worry, i wouldn't have read this wall of text myself x)
People have covered most responses but here goes:-
1. However this is implemented, most important is the impression that prior actions and responses directly contribute to the diplomatic outcome and that the ai is consistant so that diplomacy is a progressive ongoing thing.
(seeing a list of factors or events that have created the current ai attitude can really help with this although visible numerics for this are a bit of an immersion killer. So the more abstracted this can be the better, eg angry animation.)
Of games that I have recently played, Europa Universalis IV probably has one of the best developed political systems ..note, a lot of political options are not visible until you research certain options, adopt particular govt types, become Holy roman emperor or protector of the Catholic Church etc (there are many many options and it would take multiple playthroughs to see them all.)
Warfare has a war-fatigue value that grows over time and really effects happiness. Wars are seldom of annihilation. The ai will often ask a player to concede defeat, you can voluntarily or the ai nation can be asked to after a war has dragged on for long enough and one side has gained enough of an advantage or both are just too fatigued to carry on. The power conceding defeat then concedes money/territory or rights depending upon the balance of that war and there is forced peace for a set time (loosing a war but causing a lot of pain is often enough to make an aggressive ai nation change its attitude considerably). A clever set of mechanics and really makes war an extension of 'diplomacy by other means'. Seldom does a major power disappear completely from the game, it may be 'neutered' for a while by a disaster or two and its power may diminish drastically but it will remain and may even rise again so that the endgame is usually just as interesting as the early game.
2. Length of game.
Difficult to gauge I would think, although to my mind a 4x should never overrun the techtree so that technology becomes irrelevant in the end game because ultimately you know that you will have all of it.
Having to make definite and restrictive choices about what to research is intimately linked to game length and only being able to research a smaller part of all that is available adds rather than detracts...
(I know that a tech victory is a Victory Condition (?) but it will be a super effort and focus to do that won't it as it should be.)
3.
Good Strategy game or a bad one ?...
This is a difficult question. Some of the best strategy games that I have played are wargames strictly and not 4x's.
There are many bad Strategy games, usually its defective ai but if not that then usually a basic imbalance that makes a particular thing much more effective than it should be and then if production is involved..this becomes a fatal flaw. Too many bad Strategy games to list...
However Stardock are good at this, I have a lot of faith in you guys, so assuming that you hit your usual mark which is at least a reasonable Strategic military AI initially :-
Then the critical thing (for my taste and its subjective completely of course) is the mix of Strategy and immersion.
Civ5 is a lot of fun. I like the simpler interface and better automation . My favourite Civ title but I know that many don't share this view.
EuropaUniversalisIV and Crusader Kings2 also really nail down a roleplaying and 'making history' element that elevates them beyond most other expand and conquer type experiences. They are very different kinds of games though, historical with massive emphasis upon family and politics. This anchors you as the player to something far more tangible than usual, an individual with a lineage and later history as the game develops, it also allows all kinds of Machiavellian political antics like assassinations, arranged marriages, dynastic squabbles, excommunication and of course revolts & civil wars. Harder to learn than average but very rich experiences. (these two don't even have victory conditions, you set your own goals). I suppose an extension of this into Sci-fi would be something like the 'Dune' books by Frank Herbert.
I suppose the common denominator with the above three games is that as well as Strategy, there is a feeling of connectedness to the faction that grows the more time you spend with it. Also there are plenty of viable options other than warfare with which to project strategy.... (although ultimately of course it is there and should always also be a valid option.)
1. I like when diplomacy isn't boiled down to a number. Now, I know in the background that is always the case, but the games with the best diplomacy are the ones where the relationships between races look and feel like relationships, not an ever adjusting solution to an equation designed to calculate the relationship status. If I've spent a lot of time and resources developing a bond with another empire, it should come across in the words used when speaking, the tone of the music when conducting diplomacy, the ability to request favors that other empires would almost certainly deny. This all needs to be conveyed in as lifelike a manner as possible, as opposed to simply knowing that I have a +107 on the relationship scale, which I know makes us "blood brothers" because that's what anything over 100 conveys. Diplomacy done right in a game is all about subtlety of the system and the appearance of intelligence in the CPU players. This, more than any other, is the game system that can create the illusion of life in the CPU.
1a. Aside from that, I'd say flexibility in treaty options is my favorite actual feature. "Let's work together to conquer X" or "Let's pool research to develop Y technology" or "Help me out by conquerering Planet Z to deprive my enemy of their critical resource A" or what have you. A layered system of short term and long term partnerships that really let you achieve serious goals through diplomacy.
2. As many as is feasible by the game's systems. I play on the larger maps with lots of races. I like busy, complicated games that last a long time. In some games that's five hundred turns and in others it's thousands. The one key here is that the game's systems, research in particular, often don't scale well to larger games which leads to hundreds and hundreds of turns of researching "Generic Tech X for +5% benefit to Y". It works as an easy way to let the research system scale to game length, but otherwise it's pretty yawn inducing.
3. A good strategy game has to react to what the player is doing. The environment and/or other players have to show that they care what the player is doing. Not to pick on Elemental, but if I'm in the process of building the "Great Holy Towers of I'm About to Kick Your Ass", the other players should care. My allies should be asking if I remember that we're allies. My enemies should be threatening death and destruction or they should be kissing-my-ass for a last minute alliance. What they shouldn't do is not acknowledge it at all. That's game ruining. Conversely, the player must be forced to react to the environment and other players at times. My allies should make the occasional onerous demand. My enemies should sometimes catch me by surprise. And amidst all this, things need to behave predictably. I should be able to count on the fact that colonizing a very valuable planet near an ally, one that is maybe closer to them than to me, might upset said ally. I should be able to count on cause and effect to be rational within the constraints of the players, factions and universes. If a faction is unpredictable, the fact that they are unpredictable should be predictable. Things need to work the way they are supposed to. All of this combined is what gives a good strategy game the illusion of life and what makes replayability achievable.
1) As long as the depolmacy is logical and you dont get things like " Your aggression towards weaker nations can't be tolerated. It's time to go to war " And you haven't even built one little fighter yet. That bugged me.
2) So long as the game stays interesting length is irrelevant.
3) The most memorable part of a game i can remember was the ground invasion in Imperium Galactica. (The first one). If you could combine Gal Civ 2 and there ground invasion, your game would be awesome. Two games for the price of one.
1. Alpha Centauri and Civ 4 were probably my favorite diplomacy. The mix between the diplomacy and your social engineering or religion presented a lot of interesting dilemmas - do you go with a particular social setting or agenda to court favor? Do you try to convert your neighbours to form a giant block of like interests? What I like about it is the way it inherently evolves into alliances and hatreds as factions pick sides, as well as the not entirely reliable input your actions would have on that process. Room for both triumphs and setbacks.
But I'll admit it was maybe a bit too easy to game. Still, not by much - I intensely dislike extreme - note, some is necessary! - unpredictability in the AI. A solid alliance ought to mean something - but hey, if an AI wants to break an alliance I'd at least like an explanation such as bribery or coercion, y'know?
2. Longer games, definitely - not in the thousand, but 300 or 500 turns I can certainly see. I only occassionally dip into shorter matches.
3. What makes a strategy game good? I'll echo 'interesting choices' from everybody else, and I'll also add the ability to create a kind of immersive narrative for yourself. I'll get back to interesting choices, but atmosphere is very important. AC's tech voice overs, music, the rumble of drone riots.. all tell a story without much need to actually have a story there. But there's also game mechanics - I still can tell the story of a multi-faction world war that erupted for me once in Civ 4, where my coalition was attacking another coalition through a neutral third country that was holding on to peace with each side - that story wouldn't've worked without alliances, without client nations, without their separate religions and ideologies, etc, etc.
Interesting choices - it's important to create 'apples vs. oranges' situations here. Where one option is inherently better than the others, that's not interesting at all. Choosing between a weapon that does six damage and one that does 8 is bland - but choosing between quick effective weapons and attempting to capture enemy ships with boarders? Ah, now that's interesting!
Moo 2 excelled in these kinds of combat options. In another genre, take a look at "FTL" and it's recent expansion the advanced edition. Or 'Mark of the Ninja' where you can kit your ninja out with smoke bombs or lethal traps, depending on how you want to play. Not just in combat, either, a 4x must be about interesting apples vs oranges choices -everywhere-.
For a bad strategy game example.. oooh. I don't want to diss it because Endless Space is awesome in so many ways. But the combat system! Talk about the epitome of 'I don't know what impact my choices going into this battle are actually going to have'. It's a game where combat between ships has several rounds, and you can pick a tactic that theoretically has benefits depending on what your opponent does - but the computer seemed to make it's own choices randomly, so getting the intended effect you wanted was trying to guess the computer's move in advance - completely unpredictable, unsatisfactory.
That's also a game with some bat 'apples vs apples' choices. Sure, I could make my lasers focused for short range combat.. but since they'd be inherently weaker on anything other than the long range combat they were best at, what was the point? Terrible design.
Whereas.. in Moo2, say, if I wanted to make a long-range laser brawler I could. I could also make a stealth ship that would zip in and attempt to board it's victim. Or a small ship with a self destruct mechanism I could use as a kamikaze striker. Etc, etc.
I see all 3 of these questions as inter related. I will play a game for hours if I feel like the universe is dynamic and diplomacy makes sense, meaning that my ally does not suddenly and for no reason attack me. As stupid as Britain suddenly turning on the US during WWII.
I would like the option to work together with a ally to develop a tech like the US and GB did with nuclear weapons. Share intelligence and conduct joint invasions, or liberate planets that were previously under an ally's control.
The best games I have played immersed me in the game. I feel like the wold/ galaxy is reacting to my moves. If I am a ruthless conqueror the other factions join together to check my progress or try to jump on the band wagon . I like to create custom ships that I care about and even better my faction cares about. Think the impact the USS Enterprise has on Starfleet as a symbol of discovery and defense. Its loss has a impact on everyone to the point that they recommission ship after ship with its name. Included with that, the loss of a fleet should be a big deal, not just fodder. That should have a impact on moral. Both for my people and my enemies. A crippling loss should bring people to the peace table. I hate when I essentially have to completely destroy another faction to end a war. Its again very unrealistic.
I have also liked games that gave me a sense of history being made in the universe I was playing in, giving names to wars. Chronological events in a dramatic narrative. Little things that give the impression that may actions make a difference is always nice. I don't want to waste time just repeatedly clicking next turn hoping for something to eventually happen. Finally, I love games that make peace fun. Every game, more or less, is fun when your at war. Battles and ships ect.. But achievements of engineering, science, and economics. That takes skill. Say construction of a gate travel system or a Dyson sphere would be amazing. The first major star base or something would make the peace fun too.
one of my least favorite aspects of most strategy games is the disconnected feeling between the players perspective and the growing world around them - as if i am not actually within that world, but just playing a game. expanding a games mechanics and ui to present a broader perspective over time: from a highly personal one to a more omniscient viewpoint (basically adding new ui elements, new mechanics, and enhanced depth to existing mechanics as the game progresses), does go a long way towards relieving that artificial and repetitive feeling.
although we are really talking more about game mechanics than ui, or about more integration between the two, tis interesting food for thought none the less..
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