This is a suggestion that I feel should absolutely be in an alpha version especially when the point of the alpha release is for feedback.
There needs to be some way to access/give feedback from within the game. Weather it be a browser of some sort to a specific forum, or some form based system.
- An important utility for the ingame feedback system: Screen shot snip-it tool, somthing like the "Snipping Tool" included with Win 7. Remember a picture is worth a 1000 words.
- Using a tool like this, you could easily make a repository system where people can report bugs, issues, suggestions, etc... making it easy for people to browse/comment on.
This could greatly reduce duplicates while greatly increasing the number of feedback responses.
- Include within the reporting repository some sort of voting system where people can vote up or down to make your guys job much easier in regards to prioritizing the feedback.
From experience, I have always participated in alpha/beta feedback much more consistently when there was a system within the application that made reporting quick and easy. It can be quite a chore, job like, having to keep track and organize my thoughts, not to mention remember to log in and then post any feedback I wish to give.
I just checked the Report Feedback button in Age of Wonders III and it just links your browser to their forum. Haha.
Seriously what is wrong with this forum? Is it too hard for you to press alt tab and post your stuff here? Why would you find it more convenient in the game?
Taking screenshots, annotating them and posting them on the web is plenty easy already, I can do all of it in less than a minute using only free on the web tools. Plus, using a public forum allows everyone to participate even if they are not alpha founders. Forums are a proven and effective concept.
I think Stardock has already plenty of work on their shoulders, they don`t need to divert work hours on this arguably useless tool.
Having participated in betas both with and without ingame reporting tools, I can most emphatically state that it is NOT a 'useless tool' to have an ingame bug reporting system. A much more pertinent discussion would be whether developing such a system would be worth the effort for what Stardock would receive. The ability to report bugs quickly and clearly is highly important when a product is getting close to release, but for now I don't see any benefit from coding a bug report system. Even in later stages of development, this game is unlikely to find bugs that need immediate reporting and fixing, like you would see in the average MMO, for example. I don't see there being much value to Stardock in creating an ingame bug report system for GCIII. Given the development cycle of a game such as GCIII, I consider the forums sufficient to provide Stardock devs with the information they need to fix reported issues with the game.
That said, regarding what you (MaxWar) clearly meant to be a rhetorical question,
"Is it too hard for you to press alt tab and post your stuff here?"
- well, yes it very well may be. Some older systems, while capable of playing GCIII, are NOT capable of the complexities of alt-tabbing to a browser to post up screenshots. Not everyone has access to the internet speeds necessary to upload and edit screenshots in 'less than a minute.' Please remember to be considerate to people with less technological access than you. From their standpoint, an ingame reporting system indeed might be much simpler, and make it more likely that they would report bugs.
GalCiv III requieres 64 bit OS and processor, around 4 gb ram minimum and a high speed internet connection to download it off steam. You want to make me believe some poor soul downloaded it off a 56k modem and lacks the the computing power to run a browser at the same time as the game?
I can understand some people do not like using browser based forums, I can also understand that some developers lacking a dedicated forum to begin with might decide to make some kind of inbuilt reporting tool.
I have not been on other Alphas before but a few times on betas and never saw a thing like that, I have always used forums to report. Or email to support team directly. I do not think Stardock with their plenty active forum needs this system.
What maybe could be useful is rather a system that automates CTD reports. Something like :
GalCiv III detected that the software terminated abnormally, would you like to send a report to StarDock?
-Click yes
-Type some details in text box
-Press Send - It mails the report and Debug.err file to Stardock automatically.
I think there is already some sort of tool doing the uploading already,
Checking the debug.err file after a CTD I see
"Debug Message: Uploading crash reportDebug Message: Considering sending report to SteamDebug Message: Really sending report to SteamDebug Message: Sending data to SteamDebug Message: Completed sending data to Steam"
Maybe having the ability to add to this report before it's being sent would be nice
CheerPhil
Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 3 GalCiv III requieres 64 bit OS and processor, around 4 gb ram minimum and a high speed internet connection to download it off steam. You want to make me believe some poor soul downloaded it off a 56k modem and lacks the the computing power to run a browser at the same time as the game?I can understand some people do not like using browser based forums, I can also understand that some developers lacking a dedicated forum to begin with might decide to make some kind of inbuilt reporting tool. I have not been on other Alphas before but a few times on betas and never saw a thing like that, I have always used forums to report. Or email to support team directly. I do not think Stardock with their plenty active forum needs this system. What maybe could be useful is rather a system that automates CTD reports. Something like : GalCiv III detected that the software terminated abnormally, would you like to send a report to StarDock? -Click yes-Type some details in text box-Press Send - It mails the report and Debug.err file to Stardock automatically.
- I think you greatly miss much of the intent. First, I will say that they have done a good job of allowing the game to run in the background. That being said, there are often issues when trying to minimize a game in fullscreen mode, especially in early versions. But that is still not the point. Having to browse through and the attempt to find duplicate issues is not fun and in no way am I willing to take the time to do it. Instead I just post whatever issue I have. The problem is that eventually single issues get posted repeatedly. Having a way to provide feedback from the community using a voting system can help quite a lot. It not only allows the Devs to see hot topics quick and easily, but also allows the community to see what is being reported and allows better discussions.
- Take a look at systems such as the stackexchange. They have implemented a very simple way to ask questions and find answers. As such people can ask a question and often receive a reasonable answer within minutes of posting. This is largely due to the interface and format of the site.
- In regards to the forum system being just as simple as an integrated system, I'm guessing you haven't participated in alpha/beta programs that had a good system. I speak from experience when I say, I have contributed FAR more feedback when using a decent integrated system, then simply posting on a forum. I don't feel like I have to format every word, and inserting pictures/snip-its was as easy as dragging a mouse. No dealing with the filesystem saving images, then making sure they are not too large and in the correct format that the forum can use.
- Tell me, how do I insert an image into this forum easily? First I find somewhere to store the image that provides me with a link, then I use that link to paste the image? My goodness that is by no way simple quick and easy. How could you even suggest such thing?
- In terms of developing the system. The guys are stardock are quick talented programmers. Even if they decided to roll their own system and not use existing packages, I can't see this taking very long at all.
- Let me give a quick walkthrough of how easy this could be.
30-60s and I'm done.
How does this compare to a forum post?
Minutes later I'm finally done, and vow never to go through all that crap again.
Indeed but that is automated software reporting, not a feedback system. If a caught exception occurs that they don't know what to do with, they can easily send that to their team without you even knowing. If it's a complete crash, that too can be detected and sent to the team. But that isn't for feedback, it's more for stability.
Chris. Firstly, Thank you for taking the time to reply at length. You are very good at making nice forum posts.
It is true that I have not used the tool that you discuss before so I cannot fully judge what I have not personally tried. I am a long time forum user though. I have been on many forums over the years so I can talk some about them. I do appreciate the forum interface and over time have found some inherent qualities to the concept of forums as a feedback tool.
I will share with you some of my thoughts on the subject and respond specifically to some of your expressed concern.
Quoting Chris Neal, reply 5- I think you greatly miss much of the intent. First, I will say that they have done a good job of allowing the game to run in the background. That being said, there are often issues when trying to minimize a game in fullscreen mode, especially in early versions. But that is still not the point. Having to browse through and the attempt to find duplicate issues is not fun and in no way am I willing to take the time to do it. Instead I just post whatever issue I have.
GalCiv III uses a borderless windowed fullscreen mode, which provides a glitch free and instant Alt-Tab to anything else. This being said I do not constantly alt-tab out of the game to write on the forum. I just have a paper sheet and write down any problem or idea I have while playing the game. Later on I will log to the forum and reorganize all my notes into a single feedback post. I feel this makes for a better quality result than posting whatever comes to my mind just as I am thinking of it.
I am used to it. This is why I can suggest such a thing. But I can understand it is annoying if you are not.
I will tell you my exact method for sharing just any custom screenshot and having it uploaded on the web in under a minute. I use it to post pictures on any forums, facebook, chatroom, you name it. I do this pretty much everyday and it is a very useful method for me. I have to thank Imgur for being such a quick en efficient tool for doing this.
-Press print screen
-Alt tab out of the Game and Open Ms Paint ( I have it on shortcut Ctrl-Alt-P so it is quick. )
-Press CTRL-V
-Add text to the picture where I want it.
-Select the area I want and Press Ctrl-C
-Click on my imgur link in my browser. It logs in automatically to my public album. ( although Imgur is free for your first 250 picture, I do have a paid account personally, because it is so cheap and I use the thing daily. If you dont have paid account it will delete your oldest pictures to make room for new after 250)
-Press Ctrl-V The area I selected in MS-Pain is automatically uploaded to the site right from the clipboard, this takes a few seconds.
-As soon as it is over a thumbnail apppears, I can click on it and click a button to copy the link in the clipboard.
-In the forum press the insert image button. Ctrl-v the link from imgur and click ok.
-Done
That might sound complicated but actually I just did it now and checked the clock and it took me 35 seconds. Including adding red text to the screenshot, uploading the image and copying the link to the forum.
- Let me give a quick walkthrough of how easy this could be. Click the Feedback button while in the game. A window comes up allowing you to type some information. Click a button in the window allowing you to take a snipit/screenshot. You literally drag the mouse (select the area of the screen you wish to insert). The snipit is automatically inserted into the message. You type more information taking more snip-its if needed. Select the problem type (bug, issue, suggestion, etc...) form a dropdown and click send 30-60s and I'm done. How does this compare to a forum post? -snip
-snip
The ingame tool might be easier/faster to have some immediate piece of information out of your mind reach the devs, but I feel like a forum has other advantages.
Let me first say I do not see how the built in system would reduce duplicate information. On the contrary, I would expect anyone being able to easily post anything on their mind from inside the game would result in spam at the other end. A forum keeps things just complicated enough that people who post usually have something they really want to say.
Posters and devs can see what the hot topics are from the number of replies, previous discussions can all be browsed so if you dont want to post something duplicate you can read the post titles of what has been posted before. Of course most people do not do this so we end up with duplicate posts anyway, but its not such a big deal. Most of the feedback are stuff that SD already know themselves anyway.
A forum is mostly a place to discuss and exchange information. This is its main strength, others can add yo what you say, or correct you if you are wrong. There also seems there is a sweet spot as to how much traffic it can have. Too little posting and it is a dead forum. Too much posting and it becomes overwhelming. I think StarDock forum is in the green zone so I like coming to it and reading replies to interesting topics without having dozens of new pages to read everyday. I can also do this during lunch at work, while opening the game is impossible.
And last but not least, forums are fun
Quoting EvilMaxWar, reply 7GalCiv III uses a borderless windowed fullscreen mode, which provides a glitch free and instant Alt-Tab to anything else. This being said I do not constantly alt-tab out of the game to write on the forum. I just have a paper sheet and write down any problem or idea I have while playing the game. Later on I will log to the forum and reorganize all my notes into a single feedback post. I feel this makes for a better quality result than posting whatever comes to my mind just as I am thinking of it.
Not everyone is able to accomplish this. Feedback should not just be coming from a few that are willing and have experience posting on a forum. Just because you are willing and have found an easy method (which I still say is quite long) doesn't mean others can and will find a duplicate method. Don't get me wrong, that is quite similar to my process as well, so much that I have all of those tools "Snip-It, MS Paint etc..." as a keyboard shortcut. That doesn't mean however, that it should be that way.
If the process is easier, more people will participate, period. There is nobody that can refute that fact. It's plain and simple.
Have you ever used the stackexchange? As you type a question (or maybe title and issue found) you see other possible issues from the database, This could allow others to see issues before they actually make a post, often stopping them from doing so and possibly provoking them to read the issue and embellish if something may have been left out. Even more so, if they see the issue already published, they can then "Up Vote" or whatever you want to call it to signal an agreement of the issue.
I've got to say the biggest failure use of forums is the infamous "+1" post. I mean really how many times do you see this done, and how crazy is it for people to have to go through and actually count? That is why so many blog/comment/forum postings have moved to an Up Vote type system.
That is such tidious work for people to go through and attempt to "find" if their issue has already been posted. When you say most people don't, I might say almost nobody does. I have done a first page perusal, and that is it. In terms of the number of replies indicates a hot topic, I would disagree. There are a number of topics that get posted that have many replies that have nothing to do with true feedback, and the number of replies in no way indicates the popularity of the post. So you have to go through and read all the 20, 30, 80 replies to get a feeling of how many agree and how many disagree, no quick glance to determine. That is entirely not productive for the stardock team.
I generally agree with this statement. Forums are often a good place to discuss and exchange information. They are not a good place for software development and testing. I really can't imagine any decent sized software company who uses forums internally as their testing reporting and feedback tool. If anyone knows of any, please do tell me as I'm quite interested to see and hear the results. I'm always open to being wrong.
There are sooo many things that can be done to make issue/bug reporting easier. Once again look how the stackexchange does it. But, it comes down to one thing.
Remember, that one guy who isn't all that computer savey, but loves to play games and really wants GalCiv III to be awesome, may have some great insight that could be shared, but he just isn't one to use forums. Lets not loose good insight due to the reporting mechanism, that's just silly.
In a final note. If moving away from forums is not an option, then simply adding a way to post to the forums from within the game with access to screen shot tools and the like would still be an improvement and increase participation.
I agree with the OP, an in game reporting system, most likely form based, would be immensely helpful for the devs and the testers.Of course the benefit may not outweigh the cost, in which case that's a perfectly valid reason not to implement it.
However it is kind of annoying, like I had to sign up to this forum to post feedback, as well as giving feedback on steam as well as having to sign up to Stardock support to post debug/save logs. So in total that's 2 extra things I had to sign up to (generating annoying email clogs) and to what end?
One unified feedback system would make so much more sense, and not having to alt+tab out of the game would be a lot nicer for the end user. Especially seeing as how we are effectively doing free QA for the devs.
Yes, I agree with OP. Why do you always have to be the grouch, the spoil sport, the nay sayer, the change hater, the guy that balances arguments in a partly Sovereign way, the Vulcan, the doctor professor know it-all stubborn take no prisoners evil maximum war half-pragmatic dude! Why!
I am really tech stupid so I would benefit from automation. There is no reason not to want this, let SD manage their company and weigh cost to benefit. It's our job to stay in their ear and press them to do things they wouldn't Max. Assessment and implementation is what they do. IMHO
DARCA
Sorry I don't think I understood the first paragraph you wrote.
Its written in DARCATE only those who have studied me long enough can hope to understand my wisdom. Lol
Try reading it a bit at time "the doctor professor know it-all stubborn take no prisoners evil maximum war half-pragmatic dude" just means he says no alot and talks in absolutes when he thinks about things when he shouldn't. The second paragraph tells the other part of the story. I think. IMHO.
DARCA.
Cool
This thread just contracted an acute case of DARCATITIS.
I do agree, if they feel the cost cannot outweigh their gain then it shouldn't be done which may be the case.
Indeed, I simply cannot understand why someone would complain about adding something that would not affect them. People so often get flamed when only asking for options not even changes. I guess some people just need some way to voice their opinion, no matter the form.
Please do not confuse Complaining and flaming others with honest criticism. Also, this would indirectly affect me as it would affect the development of a game I care for. This being said, people discuss things that to not really affect them all the time.
I have been playing the Endless legend Alpha recently and they have a link in the game main page that says ''connect to Games2gether''. My first though was '' Hey maybe it's some imbedded system like Chris Neal suggested, lets check it out! '' But when I clicked on it my browser opened to the forum of the devs. I was kinda looking forward to trying the type of system you proposed, but no such luck, just another forum!!
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