Once late game has been reached, there is NO stopping a Vasari player who has basic understanding of the game.
He will Kostura jump anywhere...... bringing in a fleet twice as powerful as ANYTHING you can muster.
He will replace any losses of him with the second best economy in the game and he will instagib any valuabe ships you have with his overpowered phase missiles.
Vasari cannot have:
I propose the following changes
Those nerfs are necessary..... it is not acceptable that a player who own 10 % of the map can defeat one owning 90 % of the map, on a similar skill level.
Only problem advent have is kosutra jump and phase missiles on bombers.
Change from phase missiles to whatever vasari HC are using and it will be fine
EDIT:
and fyi me as advent loyal was able to win against 2 VR lvl 10 titans with carrier spamm.
True they were on defensive whole game and had no kosutra but they had phase inhibitors everywhere and one of them was spamming star bases ....
I won by spamming love cannons .... 3 can win youn game easily if they cannot get in the hart of your empire
No offense... but they clearly had no idea of how to play then.
Well it was 4v4 and both of them were eco.....
And you see i never fought those titans I cultured them out
And they've had all of that for years (though I think only VL qualifies as second best economy).
Back in the day very few people played Vasari because early on they had nothing, you needed to have superior skill to survive long enough to get all that stuff. Early mobile starbases and the Skirantra buff was when that started to change, and they could compete early game, but they kept all their late game goodies.
There is a difference between guerrilla and mobility... really I don't think hit and run attacks work very well in Sins.
Would definitely go a long way to bringing the game into balance.
I don't think it's even necessary to change the weapon type of Vasari bombers...reduce their base damage just like everything else with PMs to compensate for the shield bypassing....
Advent also could use some nice PM blocking...my favorite would be to give PM blocking to their shield techs...even if you gave it only to the highest shield tech (the one that gives shield mitigation), if the value was right then it would be enough to balance the Vasari/Advent match up.....
Either way... KISS theory rules here.
Remove PlayerVasariLoyalist from entity manifest?
I dont think that is a good idea.
If you nerf damage they will be useless until you get your shield bypass research
that was my initial reaction too. I don't know if an early bomber need would overly affect the game as bombers aren't so much a primary unit but the point is valid.
Vasari bombers are the hardest to kill and on a per squadron basis their base damage is barely below that of the Advent bombers (PM research puts them well over the top, obviously)...
What would be wrong with putting Vasari base bomber damage more on par with TEC bombers? No one is claiming TEC bombers are UP and need to be buffed, and Vasari bombers would still have the ridiculous armor and HP they have....
Besides, by the time bombers are relevant you will already have PM techs...this is no different than Kanraks, which have a relatively low DPS per fleet supply but benefit from superior weapon techs...
The core of the problem is that Vasari bombers do ridiculous damage once upgraded....unless you want to nerf the PM techs (which affects anything and everything with PMs), a slight nerf to the base bomber damage is the easiest and most direct solution...
Actually if you just make PM be affected even partially by mitigation your problem would be better for all around.
Most people seem hesitant to do this because of the whole bypass shields thing. From a purely game balancing perspective this would have made sense.
So in other words nerf everything about Vasari that makes their ships and tech what they are? All because Advent gets a lot of damage from phase missiles? Nerf orky rushing? Seriously? It takes some serious skill to be able to do this stuff and still maintain some kind of eco and expansion.
It seems obvious you were playing against a pretty skilled vasari player and you just need to improve your skills on advent. Read my thread that I think vasari need a slight buff in early game due to LF spam. Speaking of which, the vast majority of games I play I'm doing good just to get to level 5 techs because so many other skilled players that I frequently am in spots fighting for my life never let their boot off my neck. With a good skilled player I'm constantly fighting the disciple/illuminator spam with whatever spam I can throw at them. If only I had a sufficient eco to bring out a 2nd cap ship that could make a lot of difference for me, but here you are griping about late game stuff....wow, I can't even remember when I had the time to tech up to dark fleet.
Point is you were playing a skilled vasari player(s) and you let them get to that late game tech. The majority of the 5s game I play are over in about an hour and I'm doing reasonably well to spam carriers with a titan and some overseers thrown in...forget about Kosturas and the like.
The balancing problems have been apparent since Trinity. Competitive multiplayer has been up in arms about it for the longest of times for the disparity between Advent and Vasari players. I seriously doubt it is simply a difference in skill after 1000s of games with these matchups since 2008.
Vasari and Advent at an equal skill level able to hold off against each other in the early game will have the Vasari win most of the time in most circumstances as the game progresses.
The mentality that simply have a greater skill level suddenly means they're balanced doesn't work.
double post delete
You should read this post: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/383347
The reverse could be said as well. Maybe you need to improve your skills as a Vasari player against skilled Advent players early game.
I rarely get above tech level 3 in both trees. As Vasari I atleast try to drop 5 mil labs for full phase tech if carriers start coming out. 3 labs will still get 20% phase bypass.
I give credit to Nayru for making this strategy mainstream.
huh? and huh? Second capital ships are luxury usually. Dark fleet, lol- you probably still want dark fleet to be free. Honestly dark fleet was so rarely used after you had to PAY for it that it's more a SP thing. Now VL's techs may get used if you start stripping- though that's less prevalent too as people mainly just build shit loads of carriers from a factory world.
funny stuffs here.
QFT, really since Advent Illum's were no longer IMBA.
The arguments made in the OP suggest he has been battling opponents pretty skilled with Vasari and/or getting feed whereas he may need to improve his skills with Advent. That seems to be the bottom line to me because in all the skilled multiplayer games I've been in the last month, Advent have had no issues with throwing the spam my way tacking up a loss on my stats.
I don't think he actually plays PvP.
For the record, the game that made me finally post this was TEC Loyalist (me) VS Vasari. I dont play Advent anymore in competive MP when there is a hostile Vasari on a remote similar skill level in the game..... you are simple dead, should he make it to late game, which frankly... isnt all that difficult.
The game was a 4 player FFA. The Vasari player was on the opposite end of the map. When my fleet advanced into his territory he begun to strip everything. So all I got from conquering his former territory was dead asteroids with extractors. Because he had stripped everything, I was unable to get more Titan experience, too.
While I was moving down on the right side he was moving up on the left side, killing the remains of another player and also stripping his planets.
I hold the line for a while, but he was beginning to outproduce me.
With the higher population caps of the DLC, SttC does hurt more than before. On the other hand, 6 novaliths firing nonstop did not make more than a minor dent in his economy. There were only 3 planets or so left..... and any damage on them was easily shrugged off.
The end of the story was clear, with him building 1.5 carriers for every one of mine.
Altough I had 90 % the map colonized, his economy was better.
I quited the hopeless fight then. No point in watching my planets die one by one without hope for reasonable resistance.
I am sorry, but it seems you never had a Vasari jumping on your capital from half the map away, pulversing your starbase in under 30 seconds and bomb the planet into oblivion in under a minute. When you are unlucky he has SttC, too. Even on terrans you often dont reach it in time to protect it. Even if your fleet manages to catch him.... unless you have significant more ships than him chances are good he will win that battle.
And if the situation indeed forces the Vassari into retreat, he always can outrun you. Even without Phase Stabilizer. (Gravity tolerance allows to jump earlier, increasing total speed)
It is quite possible as Vasari to defeat Advent players with two times as many games as yourself, giving a slight luck in starting position. It is still possible to defeat a TEC player with better skill levels by sheer brute force and superior abilities.
Advent VS Vasari are a hopeless cause in late game. Not only does he have a far superior fleet, he also as a much better economy to replace any losses he would take.
I also notice the Vasari doing several errors...... that I, would not have made. At best he was on my skill level... probably lower.
As for your topic.... it is true that Vasari have a SLIGHTLY slower start compared to TEC or Advent. But it is quite doable to survive it, while late game survival against Vasari is pretty much hopeless for Advent and a very hard challenge for TEC.
Even if Vasari would be underpowered in early game - which they are not - that doesnt mean it is ok from a a balancing point of view, that in late game they become an "I WIN" button.
5s games are not a good way to judge on balance. Differences in skill, feed and a myriad of other things can and will affect battles in a way.
Of course an Advent with 150 Bomber wings can defeat a Vasari with 50 bomber wings.... but that is not a real situation, because the Advent economy did receive some serious feed then.
Under their own economy power you will rather look at 40 Advent Bombers wings against 50 Vasari Bomber wings. With obvious results.
There are many more games going that just 5s.
Also, your argument is basically, "If a Vasari makes it to late game, you are dead". That is not a way to balance a game.
If you do well enough without Kostura and the like..... imagine your power if you would use it.
Exactly.
It might be getting a revival soon, with industrial planets being much better for ship production and higher population levels, destroying core worlds of your enemy does hurt significantly more than before.
SttC was nerfed good enough to make it usually uninteresting from a economic standpoint.... but as a weapon of terror and economic damage, it remains quite viable. Personally I feel that it can stay the way it is, assuming the primary issue is solved:
The Vasari late game fleet is the most mobile fleet.... AND the most powerful one.
If the fleet of another player is more powerfull, he will outrun it, and do major damage to backworlds.
If the fleet of another player is less powerfull, he will engage it directly, winning the game.
The Advent player obviously had feed, which is something that cannot be balanced for obvious reasons.
Advent loyal late game with decent lvl titan and few lvl 4 capitals is almost unstoppable to everything but vasari bomber spam with phase missiles fully researched.
Problem is not really bombers but engine and his management of fighters which are supposed to counter bombers. I don't know how code is written but it seems that half of the time fighters are just flying and not shooting at anything. Either target selection is coded poorly or lag causes some fighter related calculations to be skipped or not registered properly. We all know that human player orders sometimes fall trough the loop ......
With decent lvl of am research and enough bombers no matter how many fighters you have you will never whittle them down enough that 2-3 passes wont destroy a capital ship.
I stand corrected. I didn't think you played on ICO.
Yes, that is a big problem.
Once critical numbers are reached, you are usually better of by spamming bombers too, instead of attempting a counter with fighters.
I did some extensive tests about fighters VS bombers a while ago......
And notice... Vasari have the best fighters, too.
All testing in this regard is pointless as health bars are not true show and tell how much health is left and how much damage is left in whole fleet squadrons as number of strike craft vary therefore 1 killed bomber on vasari will make heavier dent in total health and dmg loss than advent.
I do wonder what is the rate of the build of sc vary between races or 1 bomber (not squadron) takes same time to be build in vasari and advent..... You could see where I am going....
I was kinda hoping that 1.50 would put an end to these kind of threads. There is absolutely no need to nerf vasari further and they are in a decent place right now with a bit variety added to their gamestyle.
You can argue that PMs on bombers still do too much damage and perhaps a small dps nerf would help but generally i wouldnt be pushing for it. Buffing Advent vs Vasari would slightly help if culture gave more buffs / cheaper buffs or smth along those lines. That would equal out things a little bit, but again AL have a strong culture already as it is.
Also to get maximum value out of your strikecraft you ocasionally need to micro it to beat stupid AI management as Greg pointed out in one of the earlier posts. Try it out, it helps a lot!
I only speak from multiplayer point of view, singleplayer/FFA experiences may vary but not that much in my opinion.
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