Take Tuatha as an example. A Troll champion with +6 health regeneration per turn. In addition to being a defender (+1 hitpoint per level) he also has the Tough trait (+3 hitpoints per level). Tuatha has 0 defense, and his only ways to boost that are spells, shields and maybe some accessories.
As a melee/tank champion, Tuatha gets flattened in battle. His defense is extremely poor, and his hitpoints are nowhere near enough what is necessary to survive against even basic militia.
There are plenty of other heroes that have to give up significant capabilities for defense, trading them away for seemingly weak talents. While it makes sense from a purely aesthetic perspective, I really don't see it working out balance-wise. The lack of defense only serves to expose how poor AI is at choosing weak targets. Meanwhile, if I face them in battle, they get destroyed instantly as lack of defense = death.
Perhaps something simple as giving them +1 defense per level would help.
Or a base defense equal to chainmail for the items they can't equipe? Something that gets them to the usable range.
I'd rather have something that scales, so they can start out weak and grow stronger over time (instead of the opposite). But that's just my opinion. Although the fact that we'd be getting free defense isn't great, it's a simple solution to the problem.
Another solution could be monster-specific traits that give them +defense. So we'd have the option of growing that in them.
This is similar to the static defense values of tamed beasts and trained spiders initially great but late game they suck with the exception of maul on bears.
My only issue with that would be a hero who can't equip any armor and then being level 1o with only 10 defence. It's better than 0 but still not that great.
Or we could combine our ideas, a base defence per unusable armor slot with a +1 per level?
This is one of the reasons why Beast Lord is not really OP, due to lack of defense in most of the monsters except a giant rock spider, which has ok-ish but still not enough defense.
In general monster needs different levelup system. Currently, levelup only gives more HP, not attack nor defense or anything else, making monsters pretty much meat-shieds in late game except dragons.
The way to solve the leveling problem is create a specific trait that scales the defense as per how the monster rating goes up. Some do not gain any defense regardless of their spawn level while others do. It is not hard so much as time consuming but it is a large change to how difficult monsters get and are for tamed beasts. This may also make summons stronger as when they are spawned they do not gain the bonuses for higher level until the summoners level rating goes up then you can dismiss and resummon and even if the original one leveled up the new one will be stronger because of the higher initial spawn rating. Heavenfall can confirm or correct where I have misunderstood the game mechanics but this is how I have interpreted it for a while now.
The Beastmaster is still cool because it helps a ton early on (and allows you to rex a lot), you can very quickly get secondary groups going (for added heroes) without needing any serious build time, which means that your actual sov gets some trained troops that focus on hard stuff, while whoever else you have in your army takes out the many weakish monsters.
30 mana for a not too bad free unit can be quite OP.
Also, if you think only cave bears are nice: Umberdroths, really big spiders, great wolfs (have a level 10 Great Wolf cast Howl and get a 10 Attack bonus for every single guy in your army. Then proceed to kick some rear end) are all very very usefull.
When Black Widows start being eclipsed completely, well, they can still help a ton in a city defence.
None of this changes that the Monster hereos could use a buff.
Yall are dragging this thread off-topic. This thread is really about monster heroes, ie champions, that don't hold up to much compared to any humanoid hero. They have a whole different need to scale than the monsters you can recruit through various means because champions are supposed to last the entire game.
But aren't they interrelated in the fact that static defenses make unit irrelevant later in the game? So therefore a base defense value that scales, possibly through a defensive trait such as thick skin, would allow a unit to stay reasonably relevant later in melee fights.
I'm not really worried about static monsters because as the game progresses monsters should be of little factor. A civilization returns, monster should change from the major threat to moderate threat to no threat with the other nations being the major threats.
all monster units need something like Path of the Dragon, Path of the Beast, Path of the Elemental, Path of the Twisted...
Exactly, low defense monsters are supposed to be irrelevant later in the game. Champions on the other hand need to scale with the progression of the empire to stay relevant. Monster champions don't do this. All you can really get them is weapons, accessories and shields. This is a huge problem because it makes monster champions highly undesirable to pursue - a gimmick.
Regardless of how you'd like normal monster units to work, the fact is that the game is designed around monsters growing obsolete and champions scaling with the progression of the game. Monster champions do not do this nearly as well as other heroes, making them bad.
Now, you can say "I'd like monsters to scale as well" but that's a whole different discussion and not at all the same as saying "I'd like monster champions to scale as well as other champions".
Alright I see your point, I do not agree with it in the fact that monsters should scale with levels to be more dangerous and therefore worth more if left alone. But as you have stated that is a different topic. For this specific topic I agree that monster champions need either a base scalar defense growth or a trait that they can take that allows for additional defense like the iron skin trait in the defender tree.
Yes. Playable race heroes get the General Tab for perks. Each race of monster should get their own version of the General tab.
Actually, ideally each race including playable races should have their own General tab. Replace the word General with the name of the race. I don't know about anybody else, but the only General perk I ever take is Potential 1. I might have taken Quick as an experiment once, but don't anymore. The General tab could use this race specific spicing up - make the perks useful.
Then, when designing a custom race the player will have points to spend towards General tab perks. And maybe also the choice to design 2 or 3 race specific heroes to add to the random pool.
Yes! Race-specific base upgrade trees! This would be AWESOME, especially considering you can hire champions cross-blood.
I always thought the best answer to giving player controlled monsters scaling defense would be a serious of upgradeable items. Thus instead of armor they would get a belt or mark that is unlocked by the same tech and acts like armor without the visual component. It would only be useable by monsters and would keep them relevant all game.
This would be similar to the outfitting of the Dog in Dragon Age: Origins (yes, I know that's a game entirely unrelated to this one, but it's still a close parallel). The Dog couldn't be outfitted with armor and helmets and weapons like the human units, but he had a series of "harnesses" and weapons and collars and things of his own that (sort of, though it's kind of a bad example because he sort of stank in comparison to the human units, too) kept him scaling throughout the game. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to assume that your panther champion could possess a collar, battle harness, claw sheaths, etc. that would enhance his efficacy and deadliness in battle.
I don't mind monsters becoming obsolete; i only mind that monster champions have no special path to claim. I would also like to see Sarog become fearsome.
<SelectedAbilityBonusOption>Monsterous</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>ImmuneToFire</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>Sweep</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>FireBreath</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>Bash</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>Overpower</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>Trigger_Fear</SelectedAbilityBonusOption> <SelectedAbilityBonusOption>VulnerableToCold</SelectedAbilityBonusOption>
<LevelMilestone InternalName="L20"> <Level>20</Level> <UnitStat_Accuracy>75</UnitStat_Accuracy> <UnitStat_Attack_Pierce>70</UnitStat_Attack_Pierce> <UnitStat_ChanceToCrit>24</UnitStat_ChanceToCrit> <UnitStat_CombatSpeed>39</UnitStat_CombatSpeed> <UnitStat_Defense_Pierce>51</UnitStat_Defense_Pierce> <UnitStat_HitPoints>200</UnitStat_HitPoints> <UnitStat_Moves>4</UnitStat_Moves> <UnitStat_WeightCapacity>100</UnitStat_WeightCapacity> </LevelMilestone>
Really? No "final boss" quest enemy should have VulnerableToAnything, and should have more defense abilities.
I am probably misreading this altogether, but wow. For a final boss, he doesn't scream "Holy Crap!"
If that were the case the entire Zelda franchise would sink...
Lack of defence is certainly one problem with the monster hero types but a bigger one is their lack of movement. Most seem to only move 2 tiles. If they can't move 4 like a human hero when mounted on a horse then they are of very limited use.
Moving at half speed means they are about half as useful strategically and often tactically as well. Worse than that they slow down the army they are stacked with. Currently all end game trained units are mounted on horses or wargs.
If non human heroes are to be competative with human ones they need a method of boosting their speed (maybe a promotion) as well as having sufficient defence.
JJ
Defense doesn't scale well with higher attacks. It gives you pretty flat amount of damage reduction.
Example
10 defense will block about 50% of a 10 point attack -- 10 def vs 10 attack = 5 hp saved
10 defense will block about 10% of a 90 point attack -- 10 def vs. 90 attack = 9 hp saved.
So sure there is some small scaling. But you can see defense even against very large hits has trouble keeping up 1:1 with hp in value. Its only really valuable (adds up) if your taking multiple hits and living. Whether getting scaling 3hp per level is better than being able to equip some defensive armor.... I'm just going to say its not clear cut imo. But it would be fun to put the troll in all plate.
Or how about letting them purchase armor ... but make it cost extra ... 'cause it has to be specially fitted or custom tailored, or whatever.
Maybe extra gildar, extra metal, extra crystal ... something like that. Or have a special building they can go to for purchases.
YES.
I want a troll in full plate.
@animageous:
Barkspawn did not stink in DAO. His early AOE stun was sweet, and overpower(?right word?) is a mage-killer. Program his behavior to overpower mage in the first slot and watch him go around eating mages.
I agree with your claim, but... till the changes be made you can:
1. give cain belt +4 def
2. Give him kite shield or similar +6...8 def and 15 def if defending (and thats the key of his role).
3. Give +3 def +3 magic rez ring
4. Gvie regenerating dager +3 hp per hit.
5. Give turtle +3 def
6. Pick defending, endurance traits.
7. Pick healer and guard skills (guard gives defence not only to guarded units but to him also.
8. give initiative rings, bags, stones, weapons.
What it gives:
ussage of his regeneration as more often as posible, keeping in defending raises his defence to 50 or more, dagers gives hime even more regeneration as he can counteratack while in defending phase. He can use first aid if geting low. You can also give him snacks and other stuff.
As a rezult he can outstand tons of damage while doing none
Give hime one heavy armored stack and other may be ranged units and hes ready to lead his own army.
Its not hero, its you, who can find out best usage of everything in this game and thats why i like it, you have tons of options: use them. Maybe hes not your general in front of lines, but he can serve well in protection of your other side borders.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
