When creating a new sovereign, it feels like some starting professions are just always the obvious choices. Would it be possible to tweak the professions a bit to make all of the choices interesting and viable?
Adventurer: (double fame for quests)
The bonus is weak because it is difficult to find a use for so many heroes. I suggest that Adventurer could also affect the XP split as well and allow for the grouping of two heroes in the same army without XP loss. The effects of fame could also be buffed. For example, every 50-100 fame could grant +1 growth in your capital.
Bandit Lord: (two bandit units and ability to convert more)
With the new starting units, the two extra units given by Bandit Lord do not contribute much. Furthermore, the bandit units on the map are rather weak, which makes the skill pale in comparison with other options. The problem could be solved by creating some more powerful bandit units for us to convert.
A thematically appropriate bonus would also be to steal money from other factions by sacrificing bandit unit (e.g. 75 gold for one sacrificed bandit). Bandits just need a new ability for this. Furthermore, Bandit Lord could grant +5 gildar for every looted monster camp, treasure chest etc.
Diplomat: (+30% value in trades and silver tongue)
This ability is ok. In practice additional military strength seems to be much more important for diplomacy with the AI than this ability. However, the Silver Tongue ability is OK and will get better once the AI learns to build better units for us to steal .
Hunter: (+50% attack vs beasts)
This is rather weak in comparison with Beast Lord. I would much rather capture beasts than get a +50% attack bonus against them. The ability would be much improved if it also granted a bonus vs Wildlands and Dragons, for example. Alternatively, hunters could be allowed to choose new "favored enemies" like undead, twisted, elementals etc at certain levelups like lvl 7 and lvl 15. This would give the ability some use beyond the early game.
Summoner: (+2 levels to summons and Shadow warg summon ability)
The summoning spells in the mage tree feel pretty good to me, but the Summoner special doesn't contribute much with only 2 bonus levels and the weak Shadow Warg summon. The problem could be solved by buffing the Shadow Warg or giving Summoner a further bonus like +1 movement speed and +25% attack for all summoned units.
Warlord: (-50% to unit wages)
This is a weak bonus because typically unit wages are not the limiting factor in how many units I can get. Rather, the limiting factor is training time and resource cost. If this bonus is meant to make it possible for us to field large armies, make it provide a -25% discount to unit training costs instead. (Some in the first thread disagreed that this is weak, because you can save some gold in the early game. However, in my experience there's many ways to get lots of cash anyway early on. I will really have to build a lot of units to get even 200 gold of use out of this ability in the early game. Maybe it's a difference in playstyle. )
Armorer: (+25% to defense)
This ability is OK.
Beastlord: (Ability to tame beasts)
Awesome ability, probably the best choice. The free beasts really help in leveling up heroes fast and tackling otherwise impossible mobs. Coupled with spell mastery perks like Brilliance means that beasts will rarely resist taming. My favourite combo is to combine Beast Master with the summoning spells from the Mage tree and the free elementals from the Resoln special. This means that I won't have to train any units until late game.
My hope is that all of the abilities could be made as awesome as Beast Lord, rather than nerfing Beast Lord.
General: (+25% to unit experience)
This ability is OK, a balanced bonus. It is a bit boring though, because it doesn't change the way we play. Maybe add some interesting ability?
Noble: (-5% to unrest)
A really weak ability. A -5 to unrest is a weak bonus and also rather boring as it doesn't allow one to do much anything. A -30 to unrest would be more in line with the power of the other abilities and would allow for some different strategies. Alternatively, Noble could substantially reduce the unrest penalty for number of cities. This ability also gave a bonus to prestige in FE; it feels like it hasn't yet been reworked.
Warlock: (+50% spell damage)
A 50% bonus to spell damage is too much and imbalances the whole spell system. With Warlock, damaging spells do OK damage, but coupled with all the spell damage buffs it becomes too much. A +25% bonus to spell damage together with some cool new spell would be far better. For example, how about a spell to buff your spell mastery by 25% for the duration of one combat.
What do you all think?
[Topic moved to a more correct subforum with suggestions from the original thread (https://forums.elementalgame.com/443051/page/1/#3344940) incorporated. Some further ideas here, but some require a lot of changes in the game. I tried to incorporate those that are easier in this post. Sorry for crossposting]
[Responding to the other thread as well]
Well I intended to make professions review as well, but you made it first, so lets discuss it
In my humble opinion, sovereign profession should give you an opportunity for a different playstyle (maybe even force you to different playstyle?). CERTAINLY NOT give you just some bland bonus of 0.5 % or 1.5 % to something.
Rather few professions of current set may pass this test. I will start with the least troubling.
Now lets move onto average professions. These will give you visible bonuses, but will not provide an entirely new opportunities to your playstyle.
And finally, lets move for the last group, consisting of, eh, "weakly designed" professions.
So these are my 2 cents so far...curious about possible SD response!
Nice points Jirkaesch! Your design philosophy expresses a reservation I also had about perks like General. However, I think that even a bland percentage bonus can substantially alter the game and be fun. For example, the Armorer bonus is game-changing because it makes you go for lots of armored stuff. General gives a nice bonus, but it doesn't change how I play the game at all, so it's a bit boring. A reduction to unrest (like Noble gives) has the potential to be game-changing, but it's just so small that it doesn't actually affect the game.
You can edit the first topic and move it to any forum you wish. There is no reason for coposting.
At this point one could also add professions. All of these minor tweaks can be done via modding, and I think some of these suggestions are good to implement. I would like to see nothing of the professions nerfed and things buffed instead. There are particular ones that need to be buffed, for example another idea for Bandit lord would be to set it so when one gets mercenaries they get a discount for their services (old accaintance type).
Yeah BioLogos, overall I have to agree with the Armorer thing... this is a significant bonus. But in my opinion, it should motivate you to use armor even more than standard sovereign...if it does exactly that, it is fine.
I think a good change would be for every profession to give your sov. a unique ability/spell that they can use. Some already do this and they tend to be the coolest/most useful professions (with the exception of I guess bandit lord).
Noble suggestion - sovereign and heroes gets 1xp per turn in a city, per city level. -5% unrest in all cities.
This would allow the possibility of a stay at home heroes, and encourage higher tax rates as a possibility. It also encourages fewer larger cities, managed by commander heroes.
I think that you have made great suggestions how the professions should be improved and this improvement is VERY important, because, as you said, the power level differences between the professions are huge (bandit lord vs. warlock) and this hurts the player and the AI.
Another solution would be to remove the professions at the sovereign creation and replace them with the path of the assassin, the path of the commander, the path of the defender, the path of the mage and the path of the warrior.
The professions should be abilities of the different paths:
- Assassin: Hunter (+ 25 % damage against non-humanoids) and bandit lord (summons a group of bandits)
- Commander: Silver tongue
- Defender: Warlord (- 25 % unit wages)
- Mage: Summon shadow warg
- Warrior: Beastlord
Great idea! How about having to earn the extra ability. For example, if you have tamed an umberdroth and a silt skath you are allowed to tame twisted. But make it independent of level up since it is a skill you have actually mastered. It's not easy taming one of 3 silt skaths without it getting killed by the other 2.
I agree with almost everything you've said. It seems like only a little work too balance professions as your mostly just changing obviously UP stats.
This is a good idea. Ive always hated warlock, its been OP since implemented.
Only crazy people get hunter or bandit lord. Bandits should come in tougher varieties. With rusty plate and axes. Replace militia with 2 units of bandit elite.
Giving Nobles higher -unrest bonus... well, how that contributes to a (possible) different playstyle? Will you build different buildings? Design different units? Go for different goodie huts, hero paths?
You will just build stuff faster. I am afraid that this is still bland, statistical parameter, not regular feature...
You do build stuff faster, and thus you may build other things that you normally wouldn't due to optimizing your build tree. Sure eventually you will build your tower of dominion, but you may wait until your 5th city is built and build it in that city. Or instead of rushing your research to get a workshop, you might forgo that for another option. The idea of that simply bland, statistical parameter also has an effect on what you choose to build. Your build order will be different, and thus your play will end up being different by mid-game. Even then you will be able to produce more troops.
Also, playing against the AI with the noble trait also might make it a little more challenging, since they can produce troops faster than before and beable to expand to more cities. Don't be fooled by that bland, statistic.
Generally speaking, it's not bad to have profession which are best for specifically early, mid or late game. That way you get to choose between an early advantage or a more hefty late game game advantage. Also, let's not forget this game is really all about 'bland numbers'. Nothing wrong with those in my opinion.
The way I see it, the latest changes haven't really been thought through properly. Bandit lord made a lot of sense without the two starting units, but has lost its usefulness since. (As has been stated, but this is a nice and easy example to use.)
I am not saying it will not alter gameplay, parrottmath. But will it affect your playstyle? Is that bonus (even 2-3x bigger), significant even in early middle game, with all those clerics, shrines etc. in all your core cities? I dont think so...because of that, you may build few more buildings or units, but to change your strategy? Even with -10 % bonus? I am not really sure...
To make myself clear, I have nothing against numbers variation in general! In certain cases, they can make nice design choice that opens interesting opportunities... as i.e. dodge bonus for Wraiths. Combined with no armor trait, it creates really nice and effective, not-only-statistics combination.
Getting back to Noble anyway, why not give it Unrest does not affect production BUT ALSO Halved growth for that profession? That might be interesting, what do you think?
A -30% bonus to unrest would certainly be allow for a very different playstyle. For example, with such a bonus I could raise taxes a lot higher and play a gildar-focused strategy from very early on. On the first turn, I would not be setting taxes to "none" but to normal, which is a big change. A bit later on with the -unrest buildings I would be raising taxes all the way to Brutal and Oppressive. Very Noble-like to tax the lower classes heavily, I suppose. A bonus like this would also make city spamming a easier for the faction.
I whole-heartedly agree with redesigning these. Warlock is the only option for mages, Noble is a joke, Beastlord is OP, etc., I see lots of good suggestions in here.
Yeah, -30% tu unrest is significant...but why not tying to it some explicit weakness as a pay-off?
Great thread, thanks for the feedback. I went through them over the weekend and there will be some changes for the next patch.
Excellent! I just went for a trip to my old home-town for my uncle's 60th, and now I'm back and with internet again. Great to see the devs, and you especially Derek, the designer, for jumping in and taking well thought-out suggestions!
Thanks Derek, really nice to hear!
It's not surprising some balancing changes need to happen given all of the tweaks to balance in LH. Good suggestions, ideas, and looking forward to seeing the new improvements!
Yay
MA or Stormwind (been awhile so can't remember) had some really nice professions.
The game in general has very limited options for increasing movement, unless you go all mounted (which there is no reason why you wouldn't want to), especially now that tireless march is limited.
One of the professions had blah blah AND +1 army movement, was AWESOME.
Mobility/logistics are hugely important.
Would it be possible to have your profession create a unique tree in the General level tab? Perhaps three or four choices long? That would help balance the options a bit by requiring later levels.
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