Since this affects both fe and fe lh, maybe we can fix it for both.
The spell of mastery tech comes too early in the magic tech tree. A lot of AIs just head there and build the towers, rather than spend the gold/iron/crystal on units or something's else. They also don't actually try for the VC much.
My thought on this is to move the spell mastery tech back past the third book of the magi to ensure there's less 'casual' building of the towers.
Yep, the Spell of Mastery victory is currently too easy to get, because the buildings are too early in the magic tree and as soon as you have researched it there is no reason to research the other techs in the magic tree, because you have probably won the game.
Yep, a no-brainer.
People have been asking for the change on FE for a bit, but if your name can at last get things changed, all the better. (and the AI won't all go for the VC because they are "flavored" that way, not fun IMHO)
It confuses me that all the buildings needed to do the spell of mastery come from the same tech. They feel like they should be on successive techs, along the magic tech tree. So that the victory requires tech to get to, production and economy to build, and mana to finish.
If you're interested, in the mean time, you can make an easy change to the XML and attach it to the end-tree techs yourself. Directions here.
i think the 3 prerequisite towers are fine at the current location. for a magic focused empire/kingdom they are probably worth building for the extra shard power they provide. the forge of the overlord and the actual mastery spell should be moved towards the end, though, and i think it wouldn't hurt if that tech was significantly more expansive than other techs - after all this is basically the FE equivalent to a space race/tech victory.
I said this before and got hammered. Lol. Anyways I still agree. It should either get moved farther back, cost more or both.
I think you should have to build the towers in cities with 3 or more essence. Each city can only have 1 tower. The final tower must be built in a conclave. A VERY late tech unlocks a building similar to the scrying pool incase you don't have enough essence. The towers themselves should be spread over multiple techs with the final one requiring pretty much every non-repeating tech to be completed. In addition the costs in terms of resources and mana should be increased. The towers would require large mana maintenance on the order of 10/turn, and the final spell costing something over 1000 mana. Non-allied countries should be very likely to DOW you, since you are essentially attempting to cast a spell that will enslave everyone.
I recently read a post claiming you can easily win Spell of Mastery under turn 200.
Agreed to spreading the towers among multiple techs, and having Tower of mastery is like Dance with Dragons; the completion of a row.
Also, the Spell of Making once cast, should take 10 turns to "resolve" giving 10 more turns.
This way spell of making goes from the "I Win" button, to the "10 turn countdown" button. Casting the spell makes everyone at war with you, and they have 10 turns to sack your city. Maybe 20 turns would even be fitting.
it's simple, obvious, and easy to change if it doesn't get the required balance expected. Especially now in a beta where they can just shift it around and not worry much about it.
Yes it's simple, obvious and easy to change - yet it has remained this way for at least 1/2 a year. The only logical conclusion is that it is intended this way. Unfortunately there are several other similar balance issues.
Well, it's been this way from the beginning, but they only recently (give or take) made the AI actually go for it. So it's a recent change to the AI that requires a bit of tuning.
To some extent having it early can make the game more interesting; it recently forced me to go to war with a power I really wanted to wait longer on when I saw the towers going up.
the only problem with that thought line is that 'early' = game over faster and if the AI didn't defend itself well, then any SoM attempts get slaughtered early.
For a game with 1000 turns, having everything except the spell built by turn 120ish seems really silly. later game content (even the 'what happens every 250 turns' content) doesn't even kick in, so you lose a lot of the game.
Ofc, research times (or sources) could also be trimmed down as it's pretty easy to finish the whole tech tree if you were able to expand well.
It would be nice. I never play for this victory condition because it's very unsatisfying. Moving it later in the tree would go a long way towards making it feel like an accomplishment.
This is why i feel it's not so bad so I don't disagree (but making it a little harder would open up other endgame options). However, the AI should be programmed to react as you (and I) would and the building of towers should cause a hefty negative relationship modifier.
I basically turn out this victory condition. Sure it can force you into wars, but it pretty much wipes half game content out of the table. Can't really try endgame options or quest when everyone is racing toward the Big Spell.
Doesn't it? IIRC you get -9 relation penalty with EVERYONE when you start building these things.
I also agree with OP, victory condition should be much higher on the tech tree. ATM AI rushes it and then stops when it should build forge. Even if it didn't stop, you are forced to turn off that victory condition if you want to play longer games. On top of that, AI doesn't recognize if the victory condition is turned off. Even if you don't have Spell of Making victory condition active, AI still rushes it.
SoM could be done at 150 turn(if you're lucky with shards)... which is dumb. Furthermore rushing this doesn't actually hinder your empire(or kingdom ) in other means. So, dear Stardock, please move it WAY much further down the tech tree. At least final building(forge) or actual spell tech
Could the spell require magical items collected from the wild lands?
Then players would be fighting over the collected relics without necessary having to conquer each other.
Moving the forge later while keeping the other buildings early would be nice. You could benefit from the boost to magic power for quite awhile instead of for just a few turns, even when not pursuing a Spell of Making victory.
I don't know about collecting the relics; if they go back to towns I think it overlaps with the conquest victory too much by forcing you to take enemy cities. I like the idea though. Perhaps if each map had one or more wildlands (based on map size) which contained a "location of power". Casting the Spell of Making could either require the caster to hold the location(s) of power or perhaps just defeating the guardian of the location unlocks it for everyone as an additional requirement to the buildable towers.
IMO No it shouldnt require questing. This is more of a builder's way to win. There's already a way to win by quest.
Couldn't agree more on moving the SoM technology further down in the magic tech tree.
We have 24 techs in Civilization, 17 in Warfare and 20 in Magic (inculding tech that you can research indefinitly). We need 8 techs to reach the Book of mastery technology right now which is pretty silly.
Getting 8 techs in Civilization (up to cooperation, mining, maybe education and forgetting agriculture), then 8 tech in warfare (up to blacksmithing and maybe longbows) and diving to the Book of mastery tech you can lock out an insanely quick SoM victory just sitting on a few cities (3-5) up and including expert difficulty (tried this out in ridiculous recently but no success so far as the AI just has too many stacks).
My 2 cents:
Put Arcane Apparel where Book of Mastery stands: There is no reason why we should be able too research Arcane Apparel without any knowledge in Arcane Mastery. Therefore, "Even those who lacks inherent arcane abilities can use its power" Arcane Apparel descrpition would be justified since our mages can craft arcane apparel since they have acquired beforehand knowledge of arcane magic.
Book of mastery: Requires The Black Quire and Magical Forging. No reason why we should be able to craft arcane apparel without knowledge, no reason we should be able to build the Forge of the Overlord without any Magical Forging knowledge. Book of mastery would lead to Arcane weapons and Arcane Armor, the most powerful pieces of armor your faction can acquire.
Tower of the witch moved to either Sorcery or Arcane Mastery, I'd say Sorcery since it matches the description and the Ereog's Tower is already at Arcane Mastery.
Tower of the Padars moved to Arcane Mastery or Immortal Codex, would match the description of the Tower.
Tower of the Swords moved to Magical Forging, would match the description of the Tower.
Each Tower could have a specific additional cost to be built like mana for TotW or Metal for TotS.
Move Call of the Titans somewhere else, likely to Sion Temple or to the new Arcane Apparel.
Last but not least, the SoM in itself cost feels VERY controversial. So for 250 mana I can bend all the Magic of Elemental to my will, but to curse or bless a city it costs me twice as much power? Really? A bit of roleplay for a second here please. There is no way making the sun shine brighter on a city cost me twice as much magical resource as channeling all magical energies in the world.
Adjust mana costs for spells in the Magic tech tree: Curgen's Volcano should almost match the cost of the SoM or be the same (800? 1000?).
Thank you and good gaming.
It's less about questing but more about collecting magical items of power, or locations of power as to enhance yourself enough to finally cast the spell.
Bump.
We could really benefit from more opinions on the matter. This is another lasting topic inherited from FE. Many players deactivates the SoM victory right now and for good reason. SoM victory should feel like an achievement, not an easy way out. The Beta is the perfect time to implement and try out changes and tweaks for it.
Just turn off Spell of Mastery victory condition and you're done.
I never use it so no need to fix it.
There are many great features available to you once you register, including:
Sign in or Create Account
