Or will you force me to spend more nights ripping my freakin' face off because I want to change one freakin' number but instead of just changing the freakin' number and placing the file in the mods directory I have to change thousands of lines of code just so that one silly freakin' number reacts well with the rest of the freakin' game but I can't?
What we really need the most is probably an experienced modder to collect the low hanging fruit things and put them into a list of WHAT the issue is.
I haven't hard any problem making mods myself so I read posts like this and without knowing more think of it as nit-picking. The map editor, for instance, is something I think is pretty awesome (a 3D transformable terrain map editor, very few games have this). You might not agree but I'd need to know specifics so I can see what can be done.
The object "insanity" thing strikes me as something that could be handled by a mod manager that the modding community could make. I see all the mods to FTL which is a lot less mod friendly and wonder if the problem we have here is an expectations management problem.
Personally, the single biggest modding problem I see is a lack of a scripthing language (like Python). But that's not going to happen any time soon as there just isn't time/budget for that.
I agree that anything put in the documents directory should override any duplicate named objects in the base games directory. But that sort of problem could be worked around with a mod manager (which is what most games have in my experience and those are typically made by third parties).
To answer the main question, I think modding in LH will be better than FE. But the best way to get things done would be some consensus on a few bite sized things that would have a lot of impact that I can then turn over to Derek to see if he can get fixed.
It is depressing to see that the many reports of issues have gone unnoticed. I'd gladly write some concise suggestions for how to improve the available tools and the /mods/ folder, but let's look at the process shall we?
Step 1. Make reports.
Step 2. Most of it doesn't get read.
Step 3. Devs only look for bite-sized bits with "a lot of impact".
Step 4. Then they get put on a list and forwarded for a "maybe".
Step 5. A few months, half a year later, a percent of the issues gets fixed.
Step 6. This thread.
Now what's the point of repeating ourselves? Step 1 isn't that appealing considering the process.
havenfall I'm sure can do a better job of compiling a list than I can. But I can list a few things.
1. the map maker. Simply clicking on an object, and then clicking on the map doesn't place an object. Things like starting locations, resources, etc. Some things work easily and intuitively, others just don't. I tried to play around with stamps, and couldn't figure out how to place a monster at the entrance of my terrain. At that point I gave up. (after 2 hours of fidgeting)
2. Not all xml is handled equally. for example, you cannot put a calculation in the experience point bonus that a city gives a unit. But you can put a calculation in the bonuses a building gives trained units.3. The recent change to the tile yield calculations. You can adjust the bonuses to tile yield, but you cannot adjust the new cap that was put in place, or the formula that is utilized to determine how many of each resources you receive. I understand why the cap was added, but I don't understand why it was hard coded.4. the file priorities and overwriting. It would be really really really awesome, if when we added an xml entry we could add "<overwrite>1</overwrite> to cause the engine to ignore all other entries that matched it. So if I wanted my smithy to overwrite the current smithy entry, all I have to do is add that tag.5. access to more of the formulas that are used to determine things like combat outcomes. I'm not certain why we can't have things like the damage calculation be an xml entry.
6. lastly, personally I would really like it if the xml for spellcasting allowed for me to add some form of casting time(overland), and add a maximum mana expenditure per turn (mom style), and to be able to adjust that casting time by whatever calculation I entered into the xml.
7. another lastly, being able to edit the tech trees more completely. Again, from the mod folder. Ideally when modding xml, it would be best if it were possible to write *any* xml entry that is in the mod folder, and have an option for it to overwrite the default xml entry. As it stands, most modders have to cut into the guts of the actual core xml files to accomplish what they want. ( I have not, but I refuse to write any mod that requires it. I want mine to be simple to install). These are my comments from a modding newbie. Havenfall I am sure can tell you how big or how not big these issues are, and add plenty of his own to the list. I don't think most of us are trying to nitpick. We have grandiose plans for what we would like to do with our mods. When we delve into it, as a new modder, we are met with answer after answer of "that isn't possible" or "the engine doesn't do that for some reason, we don't know why". I think most of these are not big deals to alter.Lastly, I've noticed these forums don't have the same community representation from you folks at stardock as the other forums. I suspect that is from personal interest, as I have seen first hand you and your staff contribute to thread after thread in other forums, usually during your off time. I don't know how to resolve that one, short of keeping an eye out for future hires that have a sincere interest in the modding community. (not to say you don't have an interest in it, but if the engine does something you don't like when you're writing a mod, I'd suspect you just edit the source in one of your private builds [which is AWESOME])I hope you don't take any of this as negative. I love what you have done with this game, I love the fact that you are endeavoring to support modders, and I love how you treat your community. You asked for a list from a seasoned modder, I can only deliver one from a rookie modder. I hope my feedback is helpful.
I think this is the right thread to remind about this
https://forums.elementalgame.com/440649
Basically, the modder in this thread tried to make a global resource, which he managed to do, but then he was not able to acces this resource's global count from within the city. I know this is a very particular thing, but looks like a good example of how complicated some things are.
Then don't.
To set expectations: Assume that the modding won't improve at all. That way, if it does, hooray.
I said what has to be done. We did that with "Name 5 things you'd like to see fixed in FE 1.3" and the consensus 5 things got addressed.
The problem is that people will make an unpriortized lists of hundreds of things that they want, most of which aren't realistic. And yes, they get ignored because there's only so much time available.
If the modding community could put together a VERY short list (like 5 things) they think would make a big difference but wouldn't require massive effort to implement, they're likely to get done.
And it has to be specific.
For example:
That's not specific enough. The XML will never be "handled equally". That would be a massive undertaking. My suggestion would be to explain what you are looking to do so we can help accomodate that.
Let me give you my own personal requests:
1. Let the player choose MODS where it works as following:
* In the mods folder, each sub-directory that has an elementaldefs.xml would count as a mod and the user could pick.
* Elementaldefs.xml should have an option to disable the following things in it:
a. The base city improvements (so only improvements in this directory will be seen)
b. The base player technologies (so only technologies in this directory will be able to be seen)
c. the base magic spells (...)
2. Any improvement/tech/gameitem that has a duplicate internal ID to what is in the base directory should be ovewritten by the mod.
3. The map editor needs to be able to load up tactical battle maps over and over without losing special tile modifiers (this is a bug0
4. The ability to create random map stamps should be spelled out to the player such that it explains in the dialog what the player does to create a map stamp.
--
That is what I mean by specific. Now, in LH, scenarios are much easier to create because the problems I mentioned above had to be dealt with.
yes please
harpo
Okay, I'll give more specific requests. I think part of the problem with getting a 5 item list from the modding community is the wide variety of things we try to do here, whereas with anything else in the game, everyone will likely run into the same issues. Thus a "popular vote" can get you a list of things the vast majority of the players would like to see get fixed.For modding, the things you're likely to see me wanting are probably going to be very different than the things havenfall, or mpqfile want. Here are the things I would like in the order I personally would like them. I'd be happy to take a bunch of suggestions and then start a poll.1. Move the hard cap and formula for the tile yield for cities to xml. It would even be better if it could be set so we could add our own resources if we wanted and work those into the formula dynamically.
2. Implement some way of adding a calculation into an experience point bonus. One of the things I would really like to do, is allow governors to give a per turn bonus to xp to units stationed in a city with him. The best way to do this that I can think of while opening the most options for modders: Allow units to alter the resources (and custome resources) of the cities they are stationed in, and allow calculations in the
<ModType>StationedUnitStatBonus</ModType> <StrVal>UnitStat_Experience</StrVal> <Value></Value>
tag.
3. Allow some way for modifications made in the mod directory to overwrite the core xml entries, weather by the method frogboy listed, or by adding an <overwrite>True</overwrite> tag to xml entries causing them to shut off the core entry.
4. Fix existing bugs in the mappaker, and release some good youtube tutorials on how to use it.
5. More tutorials Frogboy style.
These would be my things to fix for general usage (that's my interpretation of "a lot of impact"):
1. Issue: Maps, Effects, Stamps, Tiles crafted by the player in the in-game tools are not immediately available to the player in-game. For example I cannot save a new map and then go New Game and play it. Solution: Easiest thing to do is a pop-up that informs the user he must restart the game after saving one of those. Alternatively put a descriptive text explaining that on each of the save screens.
2. Issue: The player is not able to create two maps in a row in the map maker. The first one is created just fine, but if a second one is created it will have no markers for tile modifiers or things like starting locations or monsters. The player must restart the game to create a new functional map. The issue also appears when loading maps one after another.Solution: This just needs a straight up fix. It is terrible to have to restart the game every time I want to load a map or create more than one new one.
3. Issue: The tile design tool does not sort the name of the tiles alphabetically when a player is attempting to Load a tile. This makes it impossible to load any of the currently used tiles because there are hundreds and hundreds, and without any sorting it is not reasonable to go through it looking for one.Solution: Sort the list of tiles alphabetically when attempting to load one, just like you do in the effects editor.
4. Issue: When using the /mods/ folder to install our mods, there is a large amount of issues that exist but it basically comes down to this: when attempting to overwrite core (installation) objects from the /mods/ folder, many of the object types have bugs or straight up does not work. For example I cannot overwrite a TechDef from the /mods/ folder at all. If I overwrite a <SpellDef> it still saves its <SpellResourceCost> tags. And so on (more info: https://forums.elementalgame.com/434780 ).Solution: Each object type should be treated the same (this is what I call object sanity). Preferably completely overwriting the core object. Not having these overwrites from the /mods/ folder work in any consistent manner is extremely tiring, and EVERY modder that uses the /mods/ folder runs into issues with this.
5. Issue: A player has no direct way of knowing if a mod has been loaded into the game. He must observe the effects of it indirectly. for example I can change Relias name and I can see that with my eyes when selecting sovereign. But if the mod is just slightly more difficult to observe - changed AI values or a rare item drop - the player is in the dark whether the mod is installed properly or not.Solution: When starting up the game, list all mod folders that are loaded from the /mods/ directory. Or list them while on the main menu. Or list them when loading a game after selecting New Game.
Minor, easy fix
6. Issue: When the player creates custom factions using the in-game interface, various PlayerAbilityType are saved in the resulting XML file containing nothing but the <DefaultValue>. For example I create a custom faction now and it will include <A_Additive_FoodPerGrain>25.0000</A_Additive_FoodPerGrain>. When the actual default value is later changed by mod or even by developer patch, the custom faction retains its old, saved defaultvalue. Solution: Do not save the defaultvalues in the custom faction XML. The custom faction, lacking a number, will then get its actual defaultvalue from the right place (the PlayerAbilityType).
I have also commonly seen requested the ability to modify player-made factions and sovereigns through in-game UI, but I see that as a huge programming task and basically unobtainable if you are looking for bite-sized fixes. It would be in my top 5 otherwise.
Agree with much of HF's and other suggestions that have been mentioned. Here's 5 items, much of which overlap with stuff already suggested...
1) The object sanity / inconsistencies. The best option would be some kind of <overwrite>1</overwrite> tag or similar that lets us specify whether an object is to be replaced or updated. It's better to have the option (to update) than to have it default to overwrite everything. However... making it consistently overwrite everything would be better than what we have now.
2) Being able to mod the tech tree, and elementaldefs from the mod folder. Ideally it should be possible to mod *everything* from the mod folder... but these 2 would be the first priority (from my point of view). Specifically, from the mod folder, would be great to be able to:
- create a new TechDef object, or update/overwrite an existing one
- create a new TechTree object, or update/overwrite an existing one
- create a new TechCategory object, or update/overwrite an existing one
3) I'm going to steal one of yours here Frogboy, because it's pretty much what I had in mind but you explained it better than I would have in any case. This one:
Let the player choose MODS where it works as following:
Yes please, I'll have one of those thanks!
4) As pointed out by HF, the file list in the Load screen of the tile editor (the Workshop?) is in a weird order (might be update date I think currently). Sort it by alpha as suggested.
5) I'd like to be able to put a <ModType>CityDefenseSummon</ModType> on non-city based improvements, i.e. Outposts and LimitedCapUnit Camps (i.e. Ogre Camp etc)... so that we can mod in a token defense force for them.
Wait I have a #6, another little one:
6) Being able to have a <Prereq> that is an <Improvement> for training a unit. Can't do this currently. So the idea would be that you can only train a particular UnitType (eg. Dragons) in city X if you have a particular Improvement built (eg. Dragon Breeding Center) in city X. So something like this in UnitType definition:
<Prereq> <Type>Improvement</Type> <Attribute>DragonBreedingCenter</Attribute> <Target>City</Target></Prereq>
You can work around 6) by requiring a resource and having that resource produced locally by an improvement.
Sshh... I know but it's damned annoying.
BTW Frogboy, you mentioned above that:
...in LH, scenarios are much easier to create because the problems I mentioned above had to be dealt with.
I don't suppose you'd like to share with us what problems have been "dealt with" in LH..?
Cheers.
BTW, good constructive suggestions now. We're getting somewhere!
Regarding Scenarios:
What I found is that I could not simply create additional scenarios. I wanted to be able to create maps that had their own unique elementaldefs.xml and other things that the scenario did. So I put in a change request and it's apparently in (I haven't had a chance to try it out yet).
What it means is that that I can create my own Campaign file which can specify a directory to look for all my mods. If you look in your FE directory \data\english\campaigns that's an example of a campaign directory. In FE, however, you couldn't create a campaign file that had its own directory.
Inside that campaigns directory is an elementaldefs.xml type file which supercedes what is in the base game. It also supercedes units, tech trees, items, music, etc.
Oh nice. (DsRaider will be happy with that, sounds like what he needs for his scenario.)
Yep that same concept (more or less) for all mods would be great.
See Frogboy, you already knew what I was talking about.
As far as CoreSpells.xml goes, I would say just make it so that the prereqs and SpellResourceCost are over-writeable like the rest of the file.
And as far as prereqs go, modders ought to be able to determine which are 'and' prereqs and which are 'or' prereqs. Currently it depends on the file that's being modded (spells are all 'and' and abilities are all 'or' (sort of), for instance) which is absolutely insane.
And what about being able to access global resources count from within cities? Unless it's already possible and I have missed something.
Pretty much. I would also like the ability to turn the AI on as
<AllowAIBuildAndTraining>1</AllowAIBuildAndTraining>
appears to do nothing.
As for the Map Editor:
-Rivers are impossible to place as they never line up.
-Some props that are placed in the map editor don't show up in game.
-Improvements placed next to cities don't join them.
FB, how about changing a little bit of an attitude on your side?
You haven't delivered. That was advertised as the most moddable game ever. It isn't, and you ask everyone to accept the fact that this will not improve and if it does they should hooray. When I saw that thread I knew that Seanw3 left some time ago and lots of other initiatives die...
I read in this thread HF is already modding other game.
I thought - it's wake up call. Those are the names they put on their manual. Those are the leaders of the community, recognized for being open, helpful, creative.
I've witnessed numerous of their posts pointing at various things to improve, even some to prioritize the ideas.
What I've never seen from the SD side is any attempt to recognize the post, to acknowledge them with a basic 'read, considered' not to mention, copied on some stickied list of thigns to do with estimated time of arrival and possibly some community accepted feedback on what is most improtant thing to do now. Neither I've seen SD employee to follow up with questions, 'what do you mean', 'can you post an example' I did saw HF going out to help fellow modders, with ready code.
And you've just said to your champion, "then don't", that's a poor tactic for a sovereign in FE and equally poor thing to say by game author to his community. More you say that the modding community here and game one in overall is demanding, selfish, stubborn and requests unfeasible things. Yet you praise other communities. Have you cosnidered why people there behave other way than those here? I don't believe in people being different en masse. They differ in particulars and you're particularly different then other game authors.
By your own attitude you have qeunched so much enthusiasm for the game that I can't believe it.
I've worked with many small business owners that act a lot like Frogboy.
They'll talk up their brand and make big promises, but when the time comes that people come out and say "Hey, you said X two years ago, any word on that?" they say something like "You should be happy with what little you have. Time is money. Maybe if you do some work (for free) and present me with some easy alternatives I'll do a bit for you, and you should be extremely happy for it, even though it's something I may or may not have promised long ago."
Remember, Frogboy presented the same kind of resistance after WoM released until he finally conceded that he didn't deliver what was promised.
Improving modding in the Elemental series won't directly make SD any money, so there's no reason we should expect it to be a focus of their franchise at this point.
Or what?
If you want to talk directly to me, you're going to have to put up with my various idiosyncrasies.
I'm going to retract my statements here not because I dont agree with them but my comments are a bit pointed.
I really hope we can all dial it down a notch or two. Stardock has gone so far above what any other publisher has done to make amends on this game, that it is something that people from all corners of the gaming community have commented positively on. I cannot think of another developer or publisher where the CEO would actually respond to a forum post, even if it is with attitude. While I agree that the attitude towards folks like Havenfall is counterproductive, it was for a moment a two way street. I don't know how often frogboy visits the modding forum, so it is possible he is not aware of the simple fact that havenfall might as well be a free employee for stardock.Lets focus on what we have now. Frogboy talking to us, saying he will try to address some of our concerns, asking us for a list, and people like havenfall giving one more shot at giving constructive feedback that only he is really qualified to offer. I am pretty sure havenfall knows how much the entire modding community appreciates and needs him. Without him, I highly suspect this forum would be dead. So... yea. there is the pat on the back to everyone involved. Now can we underail this topic before it gets sidelined?
Nothing. You already got my money. I don't want them back. I got my value for it. Its how you treat people that makes me feel sad.
The guy has ran the numbers, modders make up a very small percentage of total customers. This was mentioned months ago. I feel like his attitude is "I don't owe you guys squat."
Instead of fixing modding, I think Brad should come to my house, take a black magic marker and scribble out all the stuff referring to how moddable the game is on the back of my collectors edition box. Then he should delete every post promising modding features and promising to improve modding. Finally, he should delete this sub forum.
That would pretty much resolve the situation.
"We're going to have python."
"You'll be able to recreate Master of Magic. I'm in the process of creating such and such rogue-like."
"We're exposing everything to be tweaked through xml."
"My focus is turning towards modding once the game is released."
"I have that guy from Civ 5 working exclusively on improving modding."
"Care if I sticky this post? We are going to use it to improve modding." (1st)
"Why don't you guys make a post, we will use it to make improvements to modding." (2nd)
So frustrating. Every time I see a new promise, I get pulled back in thinking "This guy owns the company, if he says it is going to happen, it is going to happen, or at least an attempt will be made".
Bottom line is, at this point I don't care what you fix. Just quit promising things and getting my (our?) hopes up.
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