Unbalanced
maybe, but i'm not sure i agree.
I usually either take the cruel penalty, or the clumsy penalty, the negatives from either are small enough to be inconsequential. And i exploit this to get one extra trait point.
Doing what you're suggesting, you get your free tech and your 6 trait points. But doing what i do, gets me 7 trait points. Clumsy is essentially irrelevant for ranged or mage heroes, and it doesn't even trigger very often in melee. a free tech isn't very important imo, it's a short term gain which doesn't compare to the longterm value of taking something like the free +2 mana per turn trait.
Auboy, while I think your post is short and seemingly just spat out at random, I do agree that those kind of loopholes in the game isn't good.
That is some strange factions you create... (Hint, he is talking about creating factions, you are talking about creating sovereigns).
Sincerely~ Kongdej
You're essentially spending a faction point, of which you get at most 4, for a very low level tech and ripping yourself off in the process. It's by no means free. That one crappy low level technology has an opportunity cost based on all the other abilities you forgo to get it.
What you're doing when you select Uneducated and Scholars is saying that no research penalty or bonus plus a bottom tier tech is the equivalent of a 10% research penalty and Tough, for example (or any other 1 point faction trait). That's a choice your making, but it certainly isn't an unbalanced choice or a free tech. You're giving up the opportunity to select a trait that will effect your faction for the entire game for a technology that you would research within the first few dozen turns of the game anyway.
I'd say that not only is it not unbalanced, but it's a waste of a point, but that's the beauty of a highly customizable single player game like. Waste points and/or min-max all you like.
ah a good point. well i got the details slightly wrong, but i think my argument is still valid ^^ as kantok says, the opportunity cost balances it.
Are those traits multiplicative? If so the total would be a -1% research penalty. I'd rather go with the two +10 research rout myself and take no bows or armour.
no they are not.
~ K
You can only have one Faction Weakness now.
You talking to me? I know that... that's why I said or...
Anyways I think everything should be multiplicative, and traits, building, and town levels need to just replace bonuses instead of stacking. It's just lazy math when a game adds percentages.
I wouldn't call it lazy, there are advantages to either method. Multiplication has the advantage that getting another 10% bonus is always 10% more of your current research, regardless of how many percent bonuses you already have - there's a nice mathematical consistency to it, and it's easy for a player to see exactly how much any single bonus will help you. But then things get a little less obvious if you want to figure out how much several bonuses together help you. Quick - how much total bonus do you get from multiplicative 15%, 20% and 40% bonuses - and is that better or worse than three 25% bonuses? If you have to reach for a calculator, you've already lost most players.
Adding on the other hand comes with a sort of built-in diminishing returns, which can be good for gameplay - adding another 10% when you're already at +100% isn't as noticeable as that first +10% was (it's really +5% to your current rate), so it lacks that mathematical consistency, but as a game designer you might want this if you don't want the numbers to get too out of control when many percents stack together. Adding is also a little simpler from a player comprehension perspective; two +10% bonuses are exactly the same thing as a single +20% bonus (not so if you multiply), this is simple and intuitive for any player. It's also nice mathematically that a 10% bonus and 10% penalty neatly cancel out additively, rather than leaving you with the awkward 99% you get from multiplication.
It's nearly the opposite when you get into negatives; adding is terrible here because the scaling is literally game breaking when you combine too many percent penalties, you can quickly get to 0 or even negative values, this is undesirable from pretty much any perspective. Multiplication scales nicely here, a 50% penalty is always half of what you have left, no matter how many 50% penalties you stack together, it can never hit 0 or negatives. Not too many negative percent bonuses in FE though, so I'd say going with adding wasn't a bad choice.
Probably not worth it. Better off just taking uneducated and a better trait. Unless you happen to really really want Knowledge, like you're playing Enchanters/Conclaves. Plus you'd look at your race sheet "Uneducated Scholars", WHAT? That's just silly.
Oh I hadn't noticed, that actually changes stuff.I still think its silly the combo is there, because in any case it should be applied to all the premade factions if we are supposed to use it in lack of better...Or they should reapply a 1-click "weakness" that gave 0 points (instead of 1) that just unlocked that same tech.
People playing with uneducated and other strengths makes me wonder though They are obviously not playing the same tech-race as me against the AI .
PS. thats a great explanation Austinvn, I prefer when they add together percentages for gameplay reasons, numbers becomes less "nuts/stupid"
On the other hand any negative is pretty much not important when it is added. Maybe, you forgot that point? A system with multiplication would have to have lower positive numbers for bonuses then an added system, but it adds more dynamics if done right. That is because a negative percent will always have a negative effect on everything that it is a variable for. On the other hand, in an added system anyone could just make up that negative with a slight tweak and come out squeaky even, or better.
It's not like it wouldn't make sense to have an uneducated populous, and be scholarly. It could be a fluffy combination, say your worldly science comes from hermits, and such leaving the populous clueless. Wouldn't you think that uneducated mass would still drag down those scholars in the long run even with added city benefits?
As a single player game, I don't think the faction editor should get all that much attention in regards to balance. It should allow for users to create interesting factions within some sort of parameters, but if goofy stuff comes up oh well. Focus on the important bugs/balance.
Yeah another good point; multiplicative is just all around better for penalties. It means that the 50% penalty is neither too overpowered when you're already at 50%, nor too weak when you're at 300%, either way it takes half what you have left. I meant to express that, but perhaps should have gone into more detail. Still, the point stands - FE just doesn't do many negative percents, mostly we're stacking positives, so addition isn't a bad choice.
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