Hail fellow Sovereigns! As I am no silvertongued poet or learned scholar, I will be as brief and to the point as I can be regarding this matter. This matter of weapons, implements of destruction and violence. The things that our warriors wield in the defense of our people, and the bane of our adversaries. Yes, surely you know about them, fellow Sovereign? Unless your people is nothing but mages, and if such is the case, shouldn't you be off reading a book or tome or something? Bah! Anyways, Weapons. These are hard times in the world of Elemental, friend, every day is a struggle for survival, and with every passing season new and more dangerous beasts of the land make their pressence known. For every bigger beast out there, there is a bigger weapon to wield. A sharper sword, a more brutal mace, a more savage axe, a stronger bow... All of which makes the slaying of men, fallen and beasts alike easier for our warriors.
But something is amiss. I have heard my fellow Sovereigns, amidst their bickering, chanting and... and diplomacy or whatever they would call it. Our people are not able to defend themselves? Only ourselves, the Sovereigns, and our Champions, stand much of a chance to explore the wilderness at the beginning of our civilization, and even a good, long time down the road of building our glorious Kingdoms or sinister Empires? Perhaps my fellow Sovereigns are right. I have seen it of course, how my people struggle to wield spears of all things, requiring special training for that alone! Preposterous! A spear is as simple as a club, just that you thrust instead of swing! Not to mention how the rogues and thugs wield their daggers all wrong, swinging instead of stabbing! And how it aggravates me how my stalwart swordsmen picks up axes when I order them to re-equip themselves! An axe is not a sword, and a sword is not an axe! Speaking of axes, the axemen wield their weapons wrong, swinging wildly and without discipline when they should focus on the momentum and force of impact an axe can achieve that a sword can not!
Yes, it is a heavy burden to be a Sovereign, but if I, or my fellow sovereigns, would not do this duty for our people, who would or could do it? Ah, perhaps I will need to bring the whip to my warriors and blacksmiths, and show them how it is done myself one of these days! I can only hope that my fellow Sovereigns agree with me. If they do not, perhaps there is another war to be had soon enough. My people and I stand ready for any challenge, after all.
~Sincerely, Lord Emeron Baneceladon
TL;DR:
1) Having a greater weapon selection in the early game, and later focusing on 'upgraded' variants, would go a long way on bettering troops in my opinion(IE Daggers from training, which later can be upgraded into Long Daggers, Rapiers, or whatever fancy 'thrusting blades' names exist out there). IE Shortsword > Broadsword > Longsword > Masterwork Longsword > Enchanted Longsword
2) Additional categories when making troops, such as "One-Handed Axes" and "One-Handed Swords" and "Daggers" instead of "One-Handed Slashing", naturally with early game options to start a unit on the road of a particular weapon, even if they are simply of "Crude" quality.
3) Tweaking of existing weapons, Backswing does not help in the long run, but say, 33% Armor piercing would make Axes serve as a more offensive slashing option, compared to the overall more defensive Swords. I also think Daggers should deal Pierce damage, making them more useful against chainmail. I also think Daggers should be more focused on Dodge/Crit, with or without the counter attack perk.
4) I believe others have said it, but leveling ordinary units shouldn't give them only +1 Accuracy/Spell Resistance and a truckload of extra health. The Thunder Hammer is a good example of a wonderful, scaling concept, but perhaps there should be more unit traits that scale with level rather than flat bonuses? IE the blue heart trait(+3HP), could be +1HP/Level instead, just as an example.
5) As I also read in another topic, I totally agree with reducing required production to train troops, especially early game ones, couple that with a better system for 'upgrading' units later down the road as you unlock new tech, would make early game units a long-time investment, as they will already have a buncha levels under their belts compared to fresh recruits. Perhaps also add 'Upgrade Training' when a unit visits a fort, so that they can recieve the bonuses as if they had been trained there, IE when you build forges/command posts/war colleges and the like? Just a thought.
Disclaimer: I am by no means -demanding- any of these changes to happen, I am merely offering my own opinion and suggestions for the developers, modders and other riffraff to consider and think about.
~Sincerely, eSmokefish
I agree about backswing. It is a good concept, but we can do better. The major advantage of an ax is its ability to put the enemy on the defensive. Several wild strikes at their shield prevents them from taking the initiative. I am going to try two things. The simple thing could be to add a second strike to all axes. The other thing could be to have a successful hit slightly reduce the initiative of the defender. I would also like to see one handed axes get a short range throwing option and two handed axes should get a higher chance to reduce the enemy's initiative. Watching some of those youtube videos about medieval weapons is generally very helpful in thinking about balancing weapons. You see, the balance has already been done by reality. We just need to successfully mimic that balance.
The thing is, I used to argue for little to no weapons early on. Now we either need them on turn one or we need lower research times for those techs. It is simply not good to make us wait 50+ turns to start training leather with spears. And then it should not take a ton of time to train such a unit. I would say reducing the base unit cost would be a good step forward. Armor and weapon labor costs feel right, but the base cost for the unit could be less.
I really liked the role played thing you did there. Always nice to hear from a fellow Sov.
This. Right now upgrading anything other then spearmen is kinda broken. This is because the effects and weight of weapons and armor change when you upgrade them and a lot of weapons aren't available till late game. I wrote a post about his here. Also ya troops need to be faster to build early game. If troops were easier to build and lasted longer then they would be used more.
I'd like to see all basic weapons, even if crappy versions, available turn one to everybody (unless your faction isn't able to use certain weapons.) The techs should upgrade the quality. Something like:
wood/stone > bronze > iron > steel > tempered steel > masterwork steel > mithril (metal + crystal)
Well, this may be too many options, but you get the point.
The first tier weapons could even be old weapons from long ago that are rusty and weak. Later game weapons would be newly crafted and then masterly crafted.
Really nice post Smokefish!
Agree with you too.
Sincerely~ Kongdej
I agree. The game should be a strategy. I bought it just so. But now it is mixed with a weak RPG and Sim City. But it seems no one wants to see these posts.
I agree also, good ideas.
Im not sure that backswing doesnt matter. I guess this is for mathematically inclined people to answer (not me) but basically you get a almost gauranteed hit. The marginal value of this would decline the higher your chance to hit on one swing got but at what point is this out valued by 10 or 20 percent extra damage?
However I agree with the thrust of your post. I too love customisation and would like to see more of. More weapons, more armor more stuff. I dont find it boring to fiddle with my designs all the time.
I would also like more diffrentiation. As I said in another post the SOTS system gives a heads up, make the peice, blunt, elemnetal, dodge etc difference stronger. Let me go strong on blunt only to be defeated by strong blunt defence, let me go strong range to defeat strong anti melee or whatever.
This makes scouting relevant. Makes research important (oh crap he has good elemental, I need elemental defence!). Make strategy important (getting a good hero is not fire and forget, you need to change strat to suit the opponenent). It also stop steam rolling (found a mega cuttng sword, doing heaps of damage, ok go all cut defence nothing else so its A cheap counter, straight away I need to stop and change)
The 'optimum' backswing is if you have a base chance to hit of 50% - in that case, it's equivalent to +25% accuracy.
40% and 60% base chance to hit results in +24% accuracy from backswing.
30% and 70% base chance to hit results in +21% accuracy from backswing.
20% and 80% base chance to hit results in +16% accuracy from backswing.
10% and 90% base chance to hit results in +9% accuracy from backswing.
0% and 100% base chance to hit results in +0% accuracy from backswing.
In my mind, those aren't terrible bonuses for cases where your base chance to hit is in the middling range - but backswing does stop mattering if your base chance to hit goes above 100%, which can happen somewhat often for high level heroes.
Backswing is the one thing I don't agree with here. We already have spears for armor piercing. You could however switch it so Spears get counter, Axes get pierce, and swords get backswing. That makes more intuitive sense to me anyway.
Was just playing some more FE and I looked at the weapon techs. It needs some simple changes at least in order to make unit upgrading work properly.
-Axes should be changed to two-handed. Currently axes are the only one handed axe so they don't upgrade at all.
-Shortswords should be moved back to Blacksmithing.
-Mauls are the only two handed mace which puts them on the same path as Staffs. They should be made one-handed.
-You could just remove Great Swords and replace them with a Great Axe. There is little point in having 3 cutting weapons.
-Amulets for mages that add elemental damage need to upgrade normally as well. It's stupid to have to design a new unit just because you unlocked amulets. And different staffs need to be in different upgrade paths.
Of course I would rather see tags determine what upgrade path weapons are on, instead of auto placement by damage type and hand but this would work.
These sound like words from someone who has never used a weapon in battle. Most of the changes you suggest are counter-realistic, but could work from a pure balance perspective. I think we can do better. Backswing is useful for a single unit or party. Once you get beyond that, the bonus only ensures one soldier will hit, which is almost already assured in groups and above. The whole point of the battleaxe is to put the enemy on the defensive with several menacing strikes. The extreme force of an ax against a shield or weapons is both terrifying and painful. I would like to see axes get double strike and backswing. That would be a better representation of what they do on the battlefield. Spears aren't going to counterattack. Once you are within striking distance of a spearman, you are too close for his spear to effect a retort. Not sure how greater reach could be mimicked unless they get some extra accuracy and dodge. Swords could have a backswing as well, but mostly they should be relying on counterattacks and shield combinations to succeed. For that matter, shortswords need to use piercing damage. No more need be done there. Blacksmithing is already so powerful with its boar spear, but you might argue for the swords to be split up for the sake of progression.
So it was in the time of our ancestors. So it shall be in the time of Elemental.
I don't think anyone on this forum has used axes, swords, or spears in a real battle. Maybe some fencing or martial arts but not a battle. I was thinking counter for spears because of their reach, although I guess it would make sense for them to have a slightly different ability where they counter before the attack then. It would also fit their anti cavalry position because with higher movement cavalry usually get first strike. Rather then an accurate portrayal of the weapon I am more worried about accurate portrayal of the unit. It bugs me that if you want defenders it makes sense to give them swords, as swords are currently defensive weapons and spears are armor breakers. If you want an armor breaker try a spiked hammer. Backswing makes just as much sense for swords as counter but it would make swordsmen more realistic.
Groups have better accuracy then parties? Why?
Five units have a greater chance for at least one unit to hit. If one unit hits, no others get backswing. So the more soldiers in the unit, the less chance you have to get a backswing. So axes are not good for later game scenarios when compared to weapons with bash or counterattack or armor pierce.
We do things differently in the Northwest...
I would like a first strike too, but we will have to work with what can currently be done, since we are in feature lockdown. For mods, the same rule applies. I can make a double strike. I can't make a first strike. That would certainly be a nice addition though for the expansion. I guess spears could use some modification. How can we make them behave more like they should?
The more people you have flailing their weapons wildly in the direction of the enemy, the more likely it is at least one of them will land a hit. Basic probability.
Agree with all points in the OP.
EDIT: Looks like Sean beat me. But on the other hand,
I thought all units rolled for accuracy together... It makes no sense to me they would do it any other way.
people swinging axes next to each other would be more likely to get in each others way and hit their comrades too. spears and short swords are better in tight formations. I would vote for spears getting an accuracy boost and a bonus against cavalry. Horses really don't like charging into sharp pointy things.
This would be cool as the late-game pike/sarissa that you can research.
Incorrect. Each soldier in the unit rolls most of his stuff separately on attack. He has his own max and min attack and accuracy. Resists, defense, and other stuff are one calculation. It is a little counter-intuitive, but I don't see a change in our future any time soon. I hope the disillusionment helps you plan better when designing units. I know it did for me.
Each units rolls for accuracy separately, so each unit have a whatever chance to hit, backswing only triggers if the whole stack misses (Which is the flaw IMO)
Personally I never use axes when designing units in this game, they are just next to worthless. I sometimes use the 16 attack mace, but usually just go with spears, the armour piercing is too powerful IMO.
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