quote who="DESADE666" reply="120" id="3323280"] such as 'eternal life' which I do not believe in and there is no evidence [/quote]

Yes, there is evidence of eternal life. It's called justice. The very sense of justice among men resulting in laws/ courts supposes a Just God. We didn't give ourselves our sense of justice. It comes from Whoever made us and no one can give what he does not possess himself. We certainly know that justice cannot always be done by men, laws and courts in this world. Here the good often suffer and the wicked prosper. And even though human justice doesn't always succeed in balancing the scales, it will be balanced by a Just God, who most certainly exists.

The four last things for every one of us are death, judgment, Heaven or Hell. Justice comes as eternal life in Heaven or Hell.   This is the levelling-up after this life and by God.

God points out in man the existence of an eternity that he may enjoy by obeying the moral law written on his heart. Fool, indeed, is he who does not prepare for his eternal life.

To your reply #120,

I asked a question and made a general statement---"Many fail to believe...". Please understand that nothing there was personal but rather simply an explanation and consideration of why many fail to believe in eternal life in Heaven or Hell.

Many people do not want truth for truth implies obligations and great responsibilities and embracing truth most often entails moral correction or altered behavior.

Some people, not all, who claim to be atheists understand perfectly an argument and clearly see that the conclusion (i.e. God and eternal life exist) is necessarily true, and yet reject that conclusion for reasons that have nothing to do with the argument itself, but because accepting the truth will mean a direct change to the way they are living. ...and they don't want to do that. 

The truth is in possession. Men do not have to persuade themselves there is a God. They have to try to persuade themselves there is no God. And no one yet who has attained to such a temporary persuasion has been able to find a valid reason for it. Men do not grow into the idea of a God; they endeavor to grow out of it. 

Morals is the notion of right from wrong which characterizes it as good or bad.  Where/who do the 'moral' people you are talking about get morals? According to the dictum attributed to Fyodor Dostoyevsky, "If there is no God, everything is permitted."

It is Christian religious belief and its moral benefits and not secular or atheistic Humanism that encourages men of good will to get up when we fail, ask forgiveness, overcome vices, and keep striving to do good and be good.

Only One in history said, "I am the Truth" and Jesus said, "you will know the truth and the truth will set you free." It means that the inaccessible God has become Man, our Friend, our Life. 

*sigh*

Separation of church and state is not separation of religion and state.  It's that simple, accept.

Now Obama gave a big speech about how freedom of religion actually means the Soviet doctrine of freedom of worship.  So it's understandable how recent events can confuse.  Jews there were basically forced to eat food that isn't kosher for example because that does not fall under freedom of worship, only freedom of religion.  Of course it probably didn't help that the nation couldn't feed their own people anyway.

Edit:  Glenn Beck does a half decent job of outlining it here on youtube:

Yes, this is an important point. There is a difference between freedom of religion and freedom of worship and Obama knows it. that's why he and Hillary changed their lingo no longer saying "freedom of religion" but rather, "freedom of worship".

They're trying to limit what the First Amendment means. "Freedom of worship" means confining the scope and range of religious practice to within the four walls of a church and not beyond.  But this is far different from freedom of religion which means religious speak and expression in the public square. 

Our rights to life, liberty, the right to private property, our right to freedom of conscience and the practice of the one true religion founded by Jesus Christ are given to each human person directly from our Creator. No human authority has the authority from God to take these rights away. The United State government may not even pretend to have such authority to deny us these fundamental rights, as all authority comes from God.

So Christians are foolish if they don't pay attention to Obama and his administration's radical agenda and what they are doing to undermine our First Amendment freedoms. Obama's war on religion, especially on its public role, is unprecedented.

Lula

1. I do not believe in eternity. You misunderstand my point - I will try to be clearer. When I stated that you use assertion as fact I was referring to your use of the word ETERNITY as if describing a real, undeniable, evidenced thing and that we will all have to spend eternity with the bearded one or the horned one. I have no concern for eternity because I do not think it exists - I believe that we live on this earth and then it is all over for us when we die. That is why I have concern for this life and how we live on this earth (though of course the lifespan of this planet itself is indeed finite.)

2. And you do realise, do you not, that each and every soldier in the German army had a 'God on Our Side' motto on their belts? That Hitler was a Catholic? That he explicitly stated in 'Mein Kampf' that he felt a duty to the Lord to kill the Jews? That Hitler's first treaty was with Rome? That the Catholic churches in Germany celebrated Hitler's birthday each year. That the Roman Catholic church did not speak out against the holocaust? That the hatred of Jews has its origin in the shameful portrayal in the Christian Bible? National Socialism itself was steeped in old Nordic traditions and Norse Gods. But even if as you appear to suggest Hitler orchestrated genocide because he was a atheist (and he was never excommunicated by the Catholic Church so officially he was a Catholic if a non-practising one to the end) none of this excuses what was done in the name of God throughout the course of human history.

3. You state that all religions other than Christianity (your Catholic version) are man made! That's an old fashioned Catholic belief that most of the Catholic church doesn't even argue any more. And you quote random biblical passages as proof. I'm sorry to have to tell you this but all religion is man made and  reflects the prevailing knowledge, laws, beliefs of the time it was put down on paper. But as always you have no evidence and instead state your beliefs as fact.

3. Finally, whilst I cannot disprove the existence of God I believe the burden of proof rests with the believer. I cannot disprove fairies, Father Christmas, the Grinch, ogres, werewolves, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or sightings of Elvis. But do I think they are real? No. Would I expect those who believe in such nonsense to have better evidence than a quote from a book written by someone who believes in that nonsense? Yes.

I fear that this debate will last for an eternity...

Lula,

You say you believe in 'eternity'. You state unequivocally that the last four things a man or woman face are death, judgement, heaven or hell? How do you know these things?

The irony is that the only evidence you provide to support your argument is yet again a quote from a book written around 16 or 17 hundred years ago by a believer (see my point 3 from previous post below). Though you state 'eternity is a mystery' you then go on to describe it! So is eternity a mystery to you or is it not a mystery to you? You quote Matthew stating that 'eternity' is 'everlasting happiness' - and so I assume you believe this and again if you do WHY do you believe this...? What proof do you have?

I will simply reiterate  point 3 from my previous post, which you have not responded to.

3. Finally, whilst I cannot disprove the existence of God I believe the burden of proof rests with the believer. I cannot disprove fairies, Father Christmas, the Grinch, ogres, werewolves, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or sightings of Elvis. But do I think they are real? No. Would I expect those who believe in such nonsense to have better evidence than a quote from a book written by someone who believes in that nonsense? Yes.

So, Lula, in conclusion, how do you know these things?

PS BY the way you are entirely wrong to suggest that I am only concerned for my earthly life. I am actually concerned for my own life, loved ones, greater humanity and other creatures with whom we share this planet. I also do not need to add 'earthly' to it as if eternity in heaven or hell is a given!

Using Hitler to slam religion, especially Catholicism, just doesn't work.  

You wrote that religion poisons everything, is a con racket, da, da, da....enough to convince anyone reading this that you are anti-religion. Don't you know that Hitler's Table Talk, his own revealing collection of personal writings, shows him to be rabidly anti-religion? He called Christianity one of the great "scourges" of history, and wanted the German people to be "immunized against this disease". He promised that "through the peasantry we shall be able to destroy Christianity".   He blamed the Jews for inventing Christianity and scorned Christian values. His leading advisors, Goebbels, Himmler, Heydrich, and Bormann were Atheists who hated religion and sought to eradicate its influence from Germany.

Doesn't that seem to make you and Hitler "birds of a feather" at least when it comes to being anti-religion?

Yes, Hitler was a Catholic in his childhood years, but he apostatized from the Faith. Whether or not he was formally excommunicated is still under debate.

I will answer these charges, but won't belabor the point beyond this as this is not my thread. All I ask is, instead of slinging out unjust charges please read both sides. Until you do, please stop blaming the CC and Catholicism for the wrong doing of secular regimes.

To get the facts on the Vatican-Nazi Concordat of 1933, one must read, THE PERSECUTION OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE THIRD REICH: FACTS AND DOCUMENTS, published in 1941 at the height of Nazi tyranny. The appendix is the full text of the concordat. It proves with authentic and incontrovertible facts that beyond a shadow of doubt the Catholic Church condemned Hitler and his ideology, loudly, repeatedly, and from the very beginning of his rise to power. For this, he tormented, repressed and killed Catholics. Another good book on the CC under Hitler is THE NAZI PERSECUTION OF THE CHURCHES by JD Conway, 1968.

The following is a brief explanation of the signing of the Concordat. In 1920, Hitler laid the foundation for overthrowing the Versailles Treaty by converting the German Workers’ Party into the Nationalist Socialist’s German Workers’ Party (NSDAP). In 1923, while in prison for 8 months, he compiled notes for Mein Kampf. His aim was to supplant faith in Christianity by faith in national socialism. Once this goal was attained, he hoped to annihilate the Catholic Church as an institution. In the elections of 1932 and 33, German bishops warned Catholics against this movement, and urged them to vote for Catholic candidates and forbade them to vote for the Nazis. In Jan. 1933, Hitler became chancellor of the Third Reich and affirmed Germany’s traditional foundations by asserting that his government regarded Catholicism and Protestantism as the most important factors for support of the German ethos and would devote itself to cooperation between church and state.
He seemed to be fulfilling these promises when he concluded a concordat with the Holy See on July 20, 1933 that permitted free, public exercise of religious freedom. He lied. Hitler’s violations of its provisions were so numerous that in 1937 Pius XI issued the encyclical, Mit brennender Sorge, which made clear the fundamental irreconcilability of Catholicism and Nazism. It protested the closing and confiscation of Catholic schools, hospitals and seminaries, the seizure of property and goods belonging to the religious orders, the discrediting of religious by means of rigged trials, and the identifying of loyalty to Christianity with disloyalty to the fatherland. In pastoral letters and sermons, the German hierarchy forcefully opposed racism, totalitarianism, euthanasia laws, compulsory membership in Hitler’s youth organizations, and the desecration of churches.

For more info on "Hitler's first treaty" please Google: Sister Margherita Marchione, of the Religious Teachers Filippini, a historian and expert on the life of Pius XII. She and other notables have laid out unequivicaly that, yes, Cardinal Pacelli signed a Concordat with Germany that promised religious freedoms. It lasted 5 days before Hitler broke every promise, starting with abolishing the Catholic Youth Movement and forbidding Catholic newspapers and visible Church activity. For that, the Concordat was nullified and not worth the paper it was printed on, and Hitler who had long apostatized from the Faith used the state as a club against Catholicism.

I don’t know whether this is of ignorance, outright prejudice or you just blindly following the media which is so little interested in historical truth particularly when it involves the CC. In any case, your comments are completely unfounded, untrue and unjust.

Sister Margherita Marchione wrote, “Crusade of Charity: Pius XII and POW’s (PaulistPress). She says there are 20 million wartime letters in the Vatican Archives that express the faith and confidence of families with regard to their loved ones who were prisoners of war or missing in action. She said that he saved hundreds of thousands of Jews from the gas chambers. She also says there are thousands of available documents in the Archives that record the humanitarian work of the Holy See, including his rescue program that with diplomacy rather than confrontation saved hundreds of thousands of Jews and Christians from death in concentration camps. All members of the CC were ordered to protect all refugees and Jews.

Evidently do you don't know that for nearly 20 years after WW II, Eugenio Pacelli, (Pope Pius XII who reigned from 1939-1958), was respected worldwide for saving countless Jewish lives in the face of the Nazi Holocaust. Robert Lockwood of This Rock magazine said, “When he died on Oct. 9, 1958, Golda Meir, future Israeli prime minister and then Israeli representative to the UN, spoke on the floor of the General Assembly: “During the ten years of Nazi terror, when our people went through the horrors of martyrdom, the Pope raised his voice to condemn the persecutors and to commiserate with the victims.” Among the organizations praising the Holy Father at the time of his death were the World Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, the Synagogue Council of America, the American Jewish Congress, the New York Board of Rabbis, the American Jewish Committee, the Central Conference of American Rabbis, the National Conference of Christians and Jews, and the National Council of Jewish Women.”

Evidently you don't know there is an enormous cross beneath Castelgandolfo that was given to Pope Pius XII at the end of WWII by Jewish refugees whom he had hidden in the rooms, cellars, and passages of his summer residence. It's estimated that 12,000 refugees were sheltered there and 36 babies were born in the Pope's private apartment. Through diplomacy, public statements, and underground activity, Pius saved 800,000 Jews alone.

Pope Pius XII is most often accused of being silent during the genocide. Yet, he had a duty to condemn evil and he fulfilled it in language that was readily understood around the world. His first encyclical, Summi Pontificatus, condemns racism and totalitarianism. It was released only 2 months after the outbreak of the war. The Jewish Telegraphic Agency, the equivalent of the APress, described it as "an unqualified condemnation of racism, totalitarianism and materialism". The Allies air dropped 88,000 copies of it over Germany, where the Nazis would not permit it to be printed.

Orthodox Rabbi David Dalin would disagree with you. According to Dalin, food, water, sewer, electricity and communications were all controlled by the Italian government, Hitler's ally. After Italy's surrender, Hitler actually gave orders to "occupy as soon as possible the Vatican and Vatican City" and "massacre Pius XII with the entire Vatican." On the other hand, Pius possessed political influence, a world-wide audience, and all the resources of the CC and he did not hesitate to make use of these to aid the victims of the war, especially "those hundreds of thousands who...sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction" as he stated in his 1942 Christmas Message. (Dalin, A Righteous Gentile).

The Vatican supplemented its efforts to hide the Jews by issuing thousands of false documents, baptismal documents and passports. There was no way Pope Pius XII could have halted the Nazi butchery, but he did all he could to alliaviate the suffering caused by the war. At his death, so many tributes were made that the NY Times could not list all of them. In the SE of Jerusalem, in the Negeb, there stands a forest that was planted in acknowledgment of the Jewish lives he saved. On tree for every life...and the forest has 800,000 trees.

Hmmm....I don't know anything about this.

National Socialism is Nazism. Hitler carefully studied the writings of Darwin and understood clearly the concept of Social Darwinism. Social Darwinism basically teaches that there is no moral code, our ancestors were savage, brute ape creatures that evolved through "natural selection" and in the struggle to survive, the fittest will win out at the expense of their rivals. It led to extreme nationalism, racism and warfare through Nazism and Fascism.  

Belief in Social Darwinism was a central feature of the Nazi belief system. According to Sir Arthur Keith, Evolution and Ethics, 1947, pg. 28, Mein Kampf was based on evolutionary theory. The very title of the book, My Struggle, [to survive and overcome], was copied from a Darwinian expression. Hitler believed he was fulfilling evolutionary objectives by "eliminating "undesirable individuals and inferior races" in order to produce Germany's "Master Race", Larry Azar, Twentieth Century in Crisis, 1990, pg. 180.

Frederich von Bernhard, a German military officer, wrote in 1909 extolling evolution and appealing to start another war. Heinrich von Treitsche, a Prussian militarist, called for war by Germany inorder to fulfill its "evolutionary destiny". Politics, vol. 1, pp. 66-67. their teachings were fully adopted by the German government and it only waited for a pretext to start a war. R. Milner, Encyclopedia of Evolution, 1990, pg. 59.

History confirms that during his youth, Hitler imbibed a fanatical hatred of the Jews. Based on Darwin Evolution, Social Darwinism holds that survival of the fittest applies in nature not only regarding individuals but also in the struggle between races and nations.  those groups that are hostile to the state or were biologically inferior would have to perish if the nation were to survive. These ideas shaped the policies of the Third Reich. In pursuit of his perverted vision of eugenics and an Aryan Master race, Hitler and his colleagues implemented the racist ideas of Social Darwinism and this culminated in the "final solution"--the well organized plan to exterminate millions of Jews, Slavs, the mentally demented, and other so-called inferior types.

The idea of Racism is a social consequence of Darwin Evolution. Dr. Walt Brown explains it this way. "If the molecules to apes to man idea is correct, then humans evolved up from some apelike creature, then some people must have advanced higher on the evolutionary ladder than others. Some classes of people should be inherently superior to others. that's indeed the twisted logic Hitler used to try to establish his super, Aryan Master Race and to justify exterminating Jews and others in the Holocaust.

If we evolved by "survival of the fittest" , then getting rid of the unfit is desirable. To conquer and exploit weaker people, businesses, and countries is just the law of the jungle from which we evolved. Mercy killings, forced sterilizations, and abortion while unpopular with some, would be beneficial in the long run and very logical, if we evolved.

Now to your last sentence...

 Nothing about National Socialism (Nazism) was done in the name of God...just the opposite.

The philosophy called Secular Humanism is also a social consequence of Social Darwinism and that's what's in play here. If the molecule to ape to man idea is correct, then man is the highest form of being, and therefore man should be the object of highest concern, not some fictitious Creator that man actually created. If humans descended from animals, why shouldn't we behave like animals.    If nature is all there is why believe there is good and evil? After all, distinguishing good and evil requires absolute standards and Some Being to set those standards.

As usual no evidence from you, little understanding of history, all so black and white and based on BELIEF as opposed to fact. To be fair you do respond to some of my points but usually based on a misreading e.g. I never wrote that the crimes of the Nazis were done in the name of God. I wrote that the religious cannot use crimes by so called Atheists (though most of the German people were religious) as an excuse or modifier of the crimes committed by religious people throughout history. And yet again you fail to respond to this point -

Finally, whilst I cannot disprove the existence of God I believe the burden of proof rests with the believer. I cannot disprove fairies, Father Christmas, the Grinch, ogres, werewolves, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot or sightings of Elvis. But do I think they are real? No. Would I expect those who believe in such nonsense to have better evidence than a quote from a book written by someone who believes in that nonsense? Yes.

That's me done with this Lula. You carry on worshipping your God who creates you in sin and commands you to be healed, demands total obedience and like the Stasi is watching over you each and every single minute. As the incomparable Hitchens often said, God is like a petty North Korean dictator and living under Him is to endure tyranny.

All the best, DeSade666

Fine.

http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

Summa Theologica, by St. Thomas Aquinas, the existence of God can be proven five ways.

The evidence is there, here and everywhere. Just look around.