Since the first city is so important, and often you have to restart many times to get a really good starting position, why not either start the game off with all players having a high resource city and the Sov on top of it, or make the city the Sov creates always a choice of 4/4 or 5/3 city if there are no better tiles around, and all cities afterwards created by Pioneers rely on the underlying terrain.
Also, while we're at it, since it is generally required for any decent game to cast Inspiration and (if you have it) Enchanted Hammers on your starting city, why not boost the starting city (capital) for each faction so that it creates more research and production? Only the biggest city for each faction would get the bonus (subsequent cities wouldn't) and if another side captures it it loses its Capital City Bonus (and then gets it back if the Sov captures it back).
THIS!
I don't think that hard and fast rules for start up conditions should apply, but I feel that the starting resource placement and the enemy faction placement are some of the weakest aspects of the game, to date.
I hate having to hit ctrl-N 20-30 times and wait for what seems like a long time, only to get 10 turns in to find another faction. And I usually play large maps with less than 4 opponents.
I also really can't stand the fact that no matter what map type you choose, I always seem to be hemmed in by mountains. Can we please get a no mountains map?
Mountains are awesome. Have cliffs too!
And what about overflexibility? By allowing build queues to be rearranged at will, when it comes to critical decision making the bar just got lowered. It matters less when to begin construction of a building because it can be suspended at any time for training a militia. Normally that's not a problem because a new item would be initiated at the top or the bottom of the queue but beta 4, if I read it right, allows the queue to be moved anywhere at any time without consequences. Essentially a lot of decisions lose impact because of the streamlined process.
If you're looking for an example of too much streamlining leading to an excess of flexibility then play Starcraft 2:WOL Terran and compare it to Starcraft 1. Prior, Terran drops required the player to choose between marine and medic ratio. If you want a short, fast but high DPS attack drop then go pure marine. If you want a drop with longer survivability at the cost of early DPS then change the medic ratio accordingly. SC2 merged the medic into dropships forming the medivac. Now it's all a no brainer.
All we can do is wait and see.
I want chime in as a player that started last Tuesday. Through Sunday I just started a game and settled where Soveirgn spawned. On Sunday as I started realising the importance of starting grain I started looking for the best spot. This Tuesdays game started me in a narrow hilled canyon with all 4 Empire around me and 2 NPCs areas.. the ones with the Obsidian golems and the one with the Umber-dogs. Of the few monster spawns near me one was a Drake army and the other one of those Shrill Lords.
I struggled through yesterday to turn 120 and since I couldnt expand past 2 cities had all 4 declare war on me on top of the random high level mosters attacking me. I opted for scorched earth by just hitting enemies and razing their cities as I didnt have much room or ability to defend. The high level monsters in the first 50 turns where the killer though.
Late yesterday I just restarted because it was too tedious and limiting to continue and my next start is a lovely town by a river with a ton of low level monster spawns and a forest nearby . No enemy factions encountered so far and I'm on turn 50. Two sides of my start area has mountains. It occured to me that start location is random and I plan to actively seek reasonable start areas from here on out.
So I think the solution is you code the game the way StevenAus is suggesting and you call this "preset start areas" or something in the gameplay options. You let new players get their feet wet with such starts and when they finally feel like they know what they are doing they can check the box off and play with random starts as the game is now. As this design is much more challenging and it's availability is, in my opinion, a competitive advantage of this game over others.
It's an advanatge because just playing this new game, since I had my teeth cut 2 days prior, is boring in comparison. I aready know I'm going to win but I've never played this faction so I want to experiance it. I find it funny how I assumed different factions were stronger and now I realise it's all about start area.
Strongly Agree
Nice addition to this ongoing discussion, Horsesfly! It was helpful that you provided all of the detail that you did, especially noting that your perspective was that of a new player.
Your serial, differing, experiences certainly help to illustrate what a huge factor the quality of the starting location is. It totally helps to set a tone for much of the rest of the game. I think we are seeing a consensus emerge; that the best thing Stardock could do with this issue, is to provide a selectable switch, that offers either "Pre-balanced starting locations", or "Random locations". Making that choice, then, will be one of the first meaningful choices that every player gets to make, every time. And that should make the majority of players pretty happy ... every time ...
BTW, couldn't help but notice the nifty new avatar you developed in the last couple of days ... Nice one!
lol I have never restarted a game because of city location. You take what you can and move on no matter what. The challange in any game is overcoming the odds. If you have a poor city start then use that city to build scouts and pinoneers and then go an explore the map for a better start. I do this all the time when I have a bad city start area. And I would not want them to change it to make the game easier.
A switch option would be nice. Mine would stay on 'Totally Random Start"
People play for different reasons .
And yes a switch option is the best, I would still prefer some at least slightly more balanced starts, I don't mind being a little bit of an underdog, but some starts are just impossible to work with, like when you're locked out on your own island and have to purchase a lvl 9 hero or have raise land to exit it... Dunno if that "bug" is still there though
Sincerely~ Kongdej
There are lots of differing opinions and lots of different styles of play. What we need is choice - we can already choose frequency of monsters and density of resources. Maybe we should be able to choose the minimum tile quality in the starting location 6, 7 or 8 point. Being able to set the agressiveness of monsters (and AI factions) might also make the game more enjoyable for new players, without reducing the challenge for experienced players. That way you can set the game for your level of experience and style of play. A lot of games control these parameters by difficulty level - most maps in this game make it impossible to expand without clearing some very powerful monsters (and yes, the AI still seems to have a non-agression pact with the wildlife) but, every now and then I get an absolutely superb map that provides hours of enjoyment - that keeps me coming back!
Thanks!
Thinking about this some more it occurred to me that resources must be limited. There must be a budget and a deadline for this game to release as all things. This new switch though nice may be too much extra work.
In which case equal relief for new players and the occasional bad start would be additional free town defenders. I don't know what the different difficulties mean though I assume they have to do with the resources enemy factions get each turn or something. In which case I think we need to identify more pragmatically what a bad start location adds up to.
A bad start location would amount to getting attacked more. It would mean you couldn't expand enough. It would mean you would be forced to play at less than ideal efficiency. You would be forced to play inefficient enough whereby you would be eventually overwhelmed.
It seems the frequency of attacks and strength of nearby enemy factions is curtailed by the game difficulty setting. What's not controlled is the monster strength and frequency.
For example in my game I had a Shrill Lord and a Drake army within my start city limits. Also I had 2 Quest areas with Obsidian Guardians and Umberlings spawning and attacking me in the first 100 turns.
So it seems an easier fix would be either give the easier difficulty settings free additional guardians in their start cities as you cannot level your research high enough to make worthwhile units to combat high level monsters in the first 50 turns. Or make difficulty level also change the monster frequency settings by default.
Either would reduce the chance for high level monsters to destroy a new player with a bad start and would seem simpler ways to address the issue than adding a completely new feature.
You'd have to have pretty powerful defenders to defend against Shrill Lords and Drakes who are close enough to be woken up by your territory.
I actually had more trouble with the 3 packs of dogs and the Obsidian Guardians.
Is it something I'm doing that makes the monsters in the quest areas come out and attack me?
Like I do all the good neighbor things. Keep the dog on a leash so it wont ravage their lawn.. keep noisy appliances off the common wall so they dont hear vibrations.... run the snow blower an extra 60 seconds and do their sidewalk too. Heck I even am extra quiet in the mornings since I know they are monsters and party all night. Nothing seems to make them not leave their area and come to attack me.
good job horsefly ^^good fun way to explain that sometimes the monsters are just unfair and some people moan about me reload my games
ahhaah I knew you'd laugh.
The trick is controlling your territory lines. You don't have to build that monument, if the expanding border encompasses a powerful monster. Set your builders on something more productive, like a lumber mill or a brothel. See that nasty umberdroth lair nearby? Build your buildings away from them. If your borders do not cross them, they will not awaken to eat you (until you are prepared to pick the fight on your own terms). If you have a hopeless start, restart before you waste your time, and you can determine this in 5-10 seasons once you know what to look for.
Or...you can skip all the strategy and just pick a race with the Master Scout trait and no monsters will ever bother your cities (an unsurpassed advantage, and one that needs to seriously be toned down, since it lets you expand quickly with impunity).
So what is a Monster's area? Is it a 5 by 5 box like an ootpost with their lair center? It seems like if you pass nearby them they get triggered so just a 3 by 3 area. Sometimes it feels like the enemy factions trigger them but they attack you. It could also be caravans triggering them. I've learnt now to stay far away.
As fas as Master Scout , that sound really awesome. Never realised it was so powerful. The more I play the more things surprise me. Yesterday I started with Caresa for the first time and after first few turns I dug in expecting a real long and hard campaign as he seemed really wimpy. At some point though he got 2 spells, Dirge and Pain Howl (I think it was called Pain Howl) and the whole game flipped. He was unstoppable. Most powerful faction to date for sure. I think I got my highest score for finishing game so fast I've ever gotten.
Also was first time I tried that arena quest against the 5 obsidian golems. They are immune to magic and poison but that Howl spell doesnt seem to be either.. it just works against everything. I rolled over them in 3 turns. The dragon got loose and I sent Caresa solo and he beat the dragon with no damage. Same with the Epic quest monsters like the worm and the Ice giant..Caresa destroyed both of them.
I agree with you on picking the right spot to create settlements (both Outposts and Cities). Umberdroth lairs are a bit extreme, but fortunately rather rare, close to your starting location. That's why I generally tend to scout the environment first, and only then produce and send out Pioneers (which the AI obviously doesn't seem to do), sometimes even adding "guarding units" to protect the settlements from wandering monsters. Making sure not to build near some of these nasty locations, and focusing on getting rid of some of these, particular nasty, lairs adds another interesting strategic element to the game. Should i just try to put down an Outpost, should I get rid of the monsters lair or try to keep them at bay with spells (Tremor) and guards? Lots of choices there.
I play with a custom race which has Master Scouts, but that's mostly for the Hero/Unit movement "bonus" (I think that's already really powerful). It doesn't really make you immune to attacks in my experience.
As for initial location; looks can be deceiving. I once won a game, where it took ages to get a decent second settlement, because there was no suitable terrain anywhere near. That does have the advantage of not having much competing factions or monsters (which I wiped out around my settlement quickly) around. I made do by putting up lots of outposts to secure resources quickly. That compensated for my initial lack of settlements.
I do have to take into account that I usually play with a smaller number of opponents, which is another factor that influences the flow of the game. Having lots of factions means that someone, who takes out another faction early, can gain quite an advantage. This remedied somewhat by the higher unrest in captured cities.
Starting City Characteristics:
I am a big fan of a "balance start" option box vs. a "random start".
Balanced start = All players have access to a set max city value (6,7,8 combined Grain/Mat) within a (1,2,?) tile radius of their sovereign starting spot.
All players have access to an equal number of resources (2,3,4?) within a (2,3,?) tile radius of their starting spot.
No Monsters lairs within a (4,5,?) tile radius of the starting spot.
One faction hero available as already exists.
Random Start = As it is now.
City Boosting Spells:
I agree that these spells seem very mandatory to have to compete economically. I like the ideas of having them become higher level spells or adding to the in initial mana cost for the cast.
Higher level city boosting spells = They will still be accessible at start, but require more of a focus into that magic trait.
Higher initial mana cost = Making it near impossible to cast both in the beginning.
I really think these need to be balanced out to reduce their status as "optimal" spells to have.
Sorry if anyone has already said this, but a stronger capital would make small empires slighly more viable compared to large ones, so maybe make the game more enjoable even for those who are not top-ranked. Besides, it makes some sense. In Civ IV the "capital" advantage worked very well I must say. But I am moderately against a standardized start though. At the very least, make it optional, a sort of flaggable option at the beginning. Something that reminds me of the "advanced start" option in Civ IV, where everyone is awarded a certain amount of points, and you can buy everything. In this case, you could buy tile yields for example, research, and whatnot.
Just my 2 cents
I dont mind low-amount of city empires, all the way down to single city empires, and want to say, before I get further, that you should consider there probably will be made a Mod(e), alternate user created addon to the game, that will create advanced benefits for the capital, or to the only player that currently have cities (Think I saw some of the current modders talk about it anyways)
THAT being said, I do not think the approach to single-city viability is to "Artificially Inflate" the power of your capital, but instead give you a decent amount of buildings, in which there can only be one off in an empire, some such or similar benefits would help low-city count factions out, It does not seem to me that the single-city approach is one favoured by the devs at the moment, I played BETA 4 for a few hours today and it seems to favour having at least a couple of cities.
THAT said, you cannot create a game that appeals to every single gamer out there, so you must choose what design goals you really want, and stick with them.
Hope you get the solution you want in the end though, be it capital boosting, or just a mechanic to help the first few cities besides "just a boost", I do want to see you happy
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