So, now that I've actually played the game, I can see for myself what everybody was talking about. And, yes, corvettes are, indeed, as powerful as I anticipated.
With regard to jumping Orkulus starbases, Mecha-Lenin provided a neat but imperfect solution: only permit starbases to move into friendly gravity wells.
Personally, I feel that negates one purpose of jump-capable starbases -- that being, they can be used on the offensive.
Consequently, I propose the following: Orkulus starbases can only jump into friendly gravity wells or gravity wells occupied by friendly culture (lore reasoning: the telemetry necessary to permit an Orkie to jump is contingent upon above-average communication between the target and the destination, hence: culture).
This means that your offensive reach is limited by the extent to which you and your allies have spread culture, making culture wars a big part of limiting the mobility of the Orkulus.
On the other hand, this doesn't prevent players from stacking multiple Orkies outside a given gravity well before sending in a suicide team to kill any culture generators in the system. Consequently, I feel that no more than two Orkies can occupy a given gravity well at any given time (stars excepted).
So, TLDR:
With regard to corvettes, I feel the following issues need to be addressed:
To compensate:
This doesn't address corvette speed and maneuverability, but it might be enough; if not, perhaps corvettes should move slower as they take hull damage?
Of course, if this solves the corvette problem, we still have to deal with bombers. Though the fighter change will help allay the problem, I feel that each faction should have an "anti-strike craft alpha strike" ability. The Vasari and Advent already have one (Jam Weapons and Telekinetic Push, respectively), but TK Push needs a range buff to be effective.
I suggest baking anti-strike craft alpha strike capability into the Kol Battleship's Flak Burst: in addition to damage, it temporarily lowers strike craft accuracy by W/X/Y/Z% (Volt suggests that these values should stack with multiple bursts; I don't see the point, since your second burst will probably kill the strike craft anyway).
Discuss.
Corvettes: redundant, no real game serving purpose. Must have early game spamm unit that adds nothing to game depth.Needs at least own damage type opposing to composite to balance properly.
Jumping orkies: I want some of what the person were smoking when he came up with this idea. 0 pop cap rushable pseudo titans.
Mobilization needs to effect pop cap at the very least. And mobile SB should be entirely new unit that can be build from migratory after research.
Umm.. I don't recall ever saying anything about a new armor type for corvettes but I do know I've consistently supported a unique damage type that's slightly weaker against heavier targets and LF. I'm thinking something along the lines of...
Composite damageType:
DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:CapitalShip 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Light 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Medium 1.25 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Heavy 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:VeryHeavy 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Module 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Pirate 1.2 DamagePercentBonus:COMPOSITE:Titan 0.70
Corvette new damageType:
DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:CapitalShip 0.68 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:VeryLight 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Light 1.5 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Medium 1.15 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Heavy 1.0 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:VeryHeavy 0.95 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Module 0.75 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Pirate 1.2 DamagePercentBonus:CORVETTE:Titan 0.65
Regarding jumping Orkies, I feel like a stabilizer node should allow it to jump.. If you're going to suggest restricting it somehow in enemy wells, I really feel like it should be able to jump to wells with stabilizers, regardless of culture.. That said, I'm still not a fan of directly restricting it's movement and would rather nerf it in other ways, but eh..
Also, regarding my suggestion about Flak Burst, the reasoning behind it was that multiple FB's wouldn't do anything to Vasari bombers unless you spammed Kols. This way, at least you'd lessen the alpha wave regardless of the situation, allowing a single Kol to actually help protect it's fleet on the first pass. I do support a range buff to TKP though.
The Orky shouldn't be able to jump into a grav well already occupied by another orky. Unless its a star grav well. So if 2, or more Orkys can occupy the same planetary gravity well, then that is indeed a bug, and it needs to be fixed.
i would totally support a seperate damage type for corvette's front and rear weapons systems.
Volt, I could have sworn you mentioned that corvettes need their own armor type. It was either you or somebody as smart as you. I'll indicate that in the OP.
I'm not sure I like your damage type suggestion -- it seems like a watered-down version of composite damage, so all you'd need is a handful more corvettes (not a difficult thing to do) and we're right back where we started. By changing corvettes so that only one of their weapons deals composite damage, you basically cut down on their DPS versus all targets by 1/2 and their DPS against certain targets by almost 2/3 -- THAT puts them in their place.
But remember: it's alpha strike damage, so even then, it's formidable.
I'm curious: how else would you nerf the Orky? I've seen suggestions that involve packing/unpacking for jumps, but that's about it.
I feel like the nerf to the Orkulus has to be a logical one rather than a hard cap, like the Go rule in which players cannot make a move resetting the board to its original position during Ko fights. To wit: a Ko fight can literally go on forever, so once a Ko fight has been initiated, players cannot just simply retake their position (thereby resetting the board); they must wait a turn before retaking, during which time the board changes and the move is not reset.
I really disagree about corvettes getting nerfed as hard as you're suggesting... later on, they're not as bad, it's just that it's a T1 spam that does too well. Once flak come out in sufficient numbers, it's perfectly fine. They just need a bit of a nerf early on. That's why I nerfed their damage versus medium armor (LF). This will make LF deal with them slightly more easily, which I think should be sufficient a change to allow the defender time to counter them.
In a game last week, I got corvette rushed on one side and Orky rushed on the other. The Orky rush wasn't bad as I had my own to defend. The corvettes were interesting to deal with however. While I was ultimately able to bring out flak (I had the strongest economy up until this point) to wipe them out, by that time, the enemy had put such a dent in my economy (believe it or not, it was actually more due to culture than anything else) that I was doomed anyways. Just a slight reduction in their ability to rampage I think would be sufficient.
But as for just a few more being required and being back to where we started, that's not quite accurate. You see, as you adjust and "water down" the composite damageType as you called it, you make Corvettes less efficient. Thus, it's easier to counter them.
EDIT: As for the Orky, personally, I'd rather just see a second upgrade to the phase stabilizer that can only be used on a select number of Orkies. Heck, you could make it count against the superweapon cap. ... Actually.. I like that idea lol. Each Orkulus Rex counts as a superweapon for your empire, forcing someone who hits T8 to either harass via Kostura spam or push via Orkulus Rex.
I beg to differ...for a pitched battle yes, but the nice thing about corvettes is that you can avoid pitched battles...
Particularly if you are outnumbered (like in a 2v1), corvettes can absolutely ravage your planets and there isn't a damn thing you can do about them...even if you have a lot of flak, catching them is a pain in the ass...
They aren't OP in mid- or late-game pitched battles, but in most nearly every other situation they are a royal pain to deal with...
Titans and Corvettes have made suicide spots or being tag teamed nearly impossible to deal with...
I haven't decided yet on a good solution to the problem, but I'm not sure if a different weapon type would even be enough...
A 2nd level of phase stabilization would be an excellent requirement for phasing jumping Orkies...for one, this would guarantee a player has only 6 upgrade slots for weapons/armor...no jumping Orky could have maxed out weapons or defences, and you can pretty much forget about having abilities on them...
Honestly I still think the best idea was have orkies need an upgrade to be able to jump(ideally a 2 rank upgrade that applies penalties after jumping at first rank).
An orky with out 6 combat upgrades instead of 8 would be much more reasonable to deal with jumping into your system.
Is there anyone who has seen this since release came out? It shouldn't be possible and I can't recreate it here.
1. make the phase drives a second level of the phase gate upgrade, or even a third (the second level would just prepare the starbase for phase drive installation, and effectively do nothing). This would ensure that the jumping Orkies would always be weaker than regular starbases.
Alternatively, make mobilised starbase a separate unit with passive Heavy Phase Drive ability and less upgrade slots available.2. make the phase drive upgraded starbase cost 50 fleet supply.3. make them undergo a power up cycle (everything disabled) after the jump - say they are rerouting the power from the phase drive back to the main battle systems (unpacking).
Or ALL of the above.
@1.5: That's actually not a bad idea.. Just make a new ability on the Migrator that gives you the option of building one with a phase drive (and thus, fewer upgrade slots) or one without one and thus more. This would also mean that VR players would have to spend more money to get the new mobile Orkies rather than just using that Orky they already had maxed.
This was in another post but probably overlooked....
SB Mobilization
Problems:
Solution:(as I see it is to somehow designate which SB is mobile and)
My favourite fix would be something in between all that is mentioned above.
EDIT:
Yes you cannot jump 1 orky into grav well that already has 1 of your orkies in grav well.
I read about workaround though didn't test it yet. Let me explain. 2 orkies in 2 different gravity wells jump simultaneously into 3rd gravity well....
Striped to the core:
Solution:
I am still thinking what could be done in this case.
Problem is that yes you can get it very early in the game. Therefore you can max your fleet (2000 fleet points) 35-45 minutes into the game. But once you are denied to strip any more planets Vasari Loyalists have trouble to get to resources to be able to replenish their forces.
With Dark fleet bug fixed though After vasari loyals strip all planets that they can get their hands on if they don't get enough forces to be able to push and loose a lot of ships they are in serious trouble. Only resources they can get is from their capitals and T3 research that collects resources from destroyed ships.
Regarding corvettes:
Problem:
The only real problem I see it that only counter against them is flak and with their speed they can easily avoid that and if you attain critical mass you can play hit and run game and he cannot do anything about it. Well he can he must spamm 50 of his own corvettes and hunt 40 (40 is sweet spot for critical mass ATM) of yours down. Once he kills them he will probably do the same what you tied to do to him to you.
Perhaps something in between of all 3 would work. The only problem is flak is counter to LRM as well and by boosting them against corvettes you are boosting them against LRM as well.....
Their best and easiest solution regarding balancing not coding would be to get them their own armour type.....
Did someone say corvettes?
That's not enough of a nerf. Corvettes still counter carriers, LF, LRF, SC, caps (they can't even run). Everyhing except flak. That's insane. Without coding changes, you could still decrease their damage a bit.
I like many of OP's ideas, Corvettes should not target SC (!), new armor type. After that maybe introduce fighters as new counter to corvettes. Opening game with 1/2 carrier caps would be viable counter against corvettes. It also mitigates problem of corvette raids.
If they got their own armour type you could adjust them to be weaker to other ships as well. And if you reduce speed of them other ships if not accompanied by flak would be able to run to safe heaven. EG You could make turrets very strong against them. That would make turrets worthwhile building.
As It is I don't think that by changing only corvettes you can balance them out with rest of the ships. They will either be OP or not worth building.
I do agree corvettes shouldn't be able to attack strike craft. But if you do that and make only fighters their counter then we go back to SC spammfest. Whoever gets more carriers wins. And with that you also make Vasari SB in you gravity well rush even more potent.
DELETED BY FROGBOY
Perhaps, but I'd rather have them useless than keep ruining the game.
I agree with most of your changes (maybe except flak range), that's what I proposed in my previous balance thread (one which strangely didn't get locked).
Game was 10x more fun before corvettes. Late game SC spam was popular not because SC are so OP, there many reasons for it, which include lag, late game micro issues, SBs/RB, etc... It's subject for different thread.
Vasari SB rush is far from OP. If you're not blind or doubled it's very easy to counter.
I think the starbases should arrive in unfriendly territory without shields / antimatter, and their engines should be expensive. Other than that I can't complain. I've not had any problems with Vasari in this game. But then, I'm a really defensive player.
oh, as for the corvettes, all you have to do is click on a circle. They're really not that hard to click. If you still feel disabled from clicking on their icon, you can attack them in the sidebar. I use that thing all the time, to siphon out ailing units / keep some flights behind safety screens. I do think corvette fleet cost should be increased by 1. Right now they're a fair trade with standard frigates, but if they took up a little more space out of the fleet, the long-term picture would look quite different. They wouldn't be worth it, if you planned on long sieges. Increase it by 2 and you might as well just get rid of them.
As to your "orkies jump to culture".
I like the idea that offensive jumps have a limitation put on them, but don't feel culture is it. Even with culture suppression, the battle of a major border world would be so far progressed by the time you had destroyed media hubs and pushed back culture that it just isn't feasible.
My solution? Make orkies only able to jump offensively if there is an active phase node. This would make the preemptive strike from the Kostrura cannon that much more affable, as well as the level 6 move on the Marauder a must-have. This would also create a situation where the defensive player would have a way to remove that threat by focus firing the marauder instead of frantically rebuilding culture structures. Thoughts?
as for
I like this idea. I was thinking that phase jump stabilizers should be a must for phase jumping orky as well
Like Volt, for the Orkie nerfing, I would rather it not be limited travelwise, but just some other way. It's good that you can no longer stack them in a well somewhere [they did that, right?]. Possibly if researching the phase engines made a purchasable upgrade akin to colony pods and the like [and when you do that research, it'd end up having to replace one of the options in there - possibly strike craft support or something that would reasonably would be removed lore-wise to fit proper phase engines, but would also assist in nerfing the phasing orkies (and techinically any othe rfuture orkies you build after researching)]. Then also, when you finally DO install phase engines into an Orkie, one of the costs [if not the only cost] is FLEET CAPACITY. That way you now have your cool jumping Orkies that are part of your fleet, and had to lose something important in order to make them phase jump. You could even attach the upgrade limitation costs to the phase engines so that a jumping Orkie can't manage both maxed weapons and maxed health/strike fighters/etc.
[And if anyone else already suggested this, sorry. I'm really tired today]
EDIT: Okay, looked back up. Definitely people with the same idea. Well you have my support! Yes, now back to sleep....
Also, I think I know whats after the Vasari. It's a giant cloud of corvettes. That's it, that's all it ever was.
You folks really love to talk about the same subject on different threads...
Proposed changes for the Jumping Orky:
1. Alter the 'colonies' upgrade to also include the trade port income bonus:Each level would grant a population and trade bonus, albeit a smaller one of each than the separate upgrades.The maximum upgrade level would be increased by 1 or 2.2. Use the freed up starbase upgrade slot for a 'Starbase Jump Engine' upgrade. 2 levels: Level 1: Jump systems. High AM jump cost, On arrival it does not shoot for 30~60secs (or whatever) while power is rerouted to weapons systems. Adds a bit to AM pool.Level 2: Auxiliar power generator. Lower AM jump cost, no 'power down' on jump arrival, -10% cooldown for weapons and abilities, adds some to AM pool. The aux. power gotta be good for something when the Orky is not jumping, thus the reduced weapon cooldown. I don't consider it OP'ing the OP because 2 SB levels are being used to receive this bonus.
3. Make the SB jump ability actually need 8 military labs built to be useable.
4. Make the SB upgrade also cost 1~2 captains and 50~150 fleet supply. Given its power, I advocate 2 captains and 150 fleet, just like the Titan.
5. Make the tier-8 upgrade require at least the full Titan research line.
I actually think 4 is the most important limiting factor to regulate its power, since fleet supply will be reduced for support frigates and cruisers. But for it to happen, 1 and 2 need to be implemented the per-Orkulus optional jump engine upgrade.
3 is interesting to give an alternate strategy to stop the jumping Orkulus - at least lock it to one gravity well temporarily.
5 is to mitigate rushing the tech.
Mobile Orky should not use fleet supply or cap slots, and most definately not the same as a Titan, thats just damn near idiotic. The main reason for this is starbases are designed to be mostly self sufficient. This does not change simply because you slap a phase drive on her. Perfect solution already mentioned is to add second upgrade option to phase stabilizer and/or requiring an actual phase stabilizer in the well your jumping from. Dunno if this would include the "stabilize phase space" ability of the "insert-name-of-that-damned-ship-here". But using fleet supply/cap slots = silly. However, there does need to be a way to nerf the ability to hop skotch mobile orkies. I don't usually play as VR so have never used the ability myself, but as I see it, someone could have an orky jump from grav C that they own to enemy grav D, while fighting, they could then move mobile orky from grav B that they own to now empty grav C...if orky now in enemy grav D is destroyed, you already have another ready to jump in to replace it and can continue to do so for as long as you line of connected grav wells with mobile orkies. I can already hear the "Thats why they need to use fleet/cap supply" rubbish. This does not necessitate fleet supply/cap limit. I would suggest a somewhat lengthy "cooldown" period for Orkies between jumps (meaning they can't jump but every "insert-reasonable/balanced-amount-of-time-here"). My understanding is that, at present, it requires a single level 8 research to use right? I would like to see that increased to 2 or 3 in a tree similiar to the 3-tree path to get the Twin Fortress reserarch for TECL (if it isn't already?).
But yes it does. Starbase that is always in the same location uses dedicated supply line not included in your fleet supply, which lists capacity to supply mobile FTL capable forces. But starbase that can move is basically the same as Titan - it requires much more versatile supplying than stationary structures. If Titans use fleet supply, mobile starbases should too.
Besides, we dont know the supply requirements for massive phase drives required for jumping starbases (or other ships). It is perfectly justifiable that "slapping phase drive on it" would be a significant investment in terms of increased supply requirements - FTL jumps consume energy (and thus fusion fuel) like nothing else.
This is really only an issue of technobabble justification.
I am in favor of all three solutions - make it a second (third?) level of phase stabiliser upgrade, make it cost 50 fleet supply, and add cooldown period after the jump. Its significantly OP, I dont think only one of those is enough, we need all three.
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