Is it in the cards that we'll eventually be able to move through areas occupied by other units/outposts/resources of those we're at peace with? To examples below. The first one went on for roughly 25 turns. The pioneers in the picture never moved, preventing my heroes from exploring further.
The other is worse. The only link between the eastern and western halves of this randomly generated large map is across this one-tile wide land bridge. So of course Tarth built an outpost in the middle of it. I'm at peace with Tarth and have a non-aggression pact with them. I can't walk through though. My only choice is to eventually go to war with them once I finish conquering everything on this side of bridge.
2 words: Terraforming spells
Doesn`t invalidate the point. The roadblocks in question are not reasonable game features to be overcome, they are logically abrasive situations that reveal the invisible walls of the game.
I agree. You should also be able to go though allied or non-aggression pact cities (though not actually in them at any time). So the game needs to be changed so you can go through allied/non-aggression pact cities and outposts, and to be able to go "through" allied or non-aggression pact armies as long as you don't finish a turn on them. Or maybe just allow them to be walked through and be on the same square - but if the non-aggression pact ends or war is declared they would be semi-randomly sent to closer tiles to each player's territory.
So we need to be able to:
Walk on or through allied/non-aggression pact outposts (of whatever type);
Walk through an allied/non-aggression pact city without actually appearing in it; and possibly:
Share squares with those you have an alliance or non-aggression pact with, just like armies from the same side (or monsters) can do, and if a non-aggression pact ends, you are automagically separated. (AFAIK alliances can't be broken once set.)
or
To be able to walk through a shared square without finishing or sharing a square with an allied/non-aggression pact side's units. Although if a few units are lined up it may be impossible to pass without finishing on another side's units.
And depending on what the devs want to do, they could allow these features to also apply to sides without alliance or non-aggression pacts too, as long as you aren't at war, or maybe your standing with them has at least be neutral to be able to go through their territory like in the above (and you are kicked out if it becomes unfriendly or hostile)?
+1 strip of bacon for that
Sincerely~ Kongdej
One word: Irrelevant.
One square is big enough to form the heart of a city. One hero standing in the equivalent amount of space should NOT be able to block all passage through that space. Especially when that hero (or army or whatever) is not hostile to me.
As for the outpost in the second screenshot, I have a non-aggression pact with Tarth, meaning we can freely travel through each other's territory. Except that doesn't count any territory they've built anything on, or any territory they happen to be standing on. And this wouldn't change even if we were allied.
Maybe Derek wants it this way, and if so we'll live with it, but it seems like a cop out solution. Hostility towards one another should determine whether or not opposing units can travel through the same space, not mere presence.
Put it this way, we can't even go through squares with OUR army in it (try filling up a city with your units, and then try to walk something through it), it'll walk all around the world before trying to go through that MASSIVE city. I understand your point regarding non-aggression pacts, and I can see they might change that, along with the silly city behavior. But unil then, use terraforming spells.
However, I completely disagree with your assertion regarding tile blockage. You absolutely should be able to block passage with your army, I don't care how large you want to think a tile is, the gameplay implications of just going through people means fast stacks will just bypass armies and destroy all the cities. That's a problem right now even when you have to go around them, don't make it any easier.
I understand to use terraforming spells. It's obvious and easy, if annoying. But we're in a beta. The point is to point out crap like this that we think should operate differently. I wasn't complaining that they ruined my beta game and I couldn't get around it. I was pointing out that the need to use terraforming spells, which I may not even have access to, makes this a bad game play rule.
Drakohan made the point very well above.
I'm not really sure I get your point in reference to what I said. If two armies are hostile, they should not be able to pass through the same tile (or through tiles occupied by hostile objects, like an enemy's outpost). If they are not hostile to one another, or certainly at least if they are members of a non-aggression pact or an alliance, they should be able to pass through the same tile, including cities. That's my assertion. It has nothing to do with fast armies or not.
I don't care that we can't do it now even with our own armies and our own full cities. It's a bad feature in the game that should be changed, both in regards to our own cities and in regards to regular tiles.
Well that might just be the point, everyone tend to neglect terraforming spells, and here's finally one occasion when they are actually useful for something. Perhaps it's made that way so you might pick them up? I mean, if this is the obvious, and easy solution, then what's the problem?
As for the movement through peaceful nations. I might not want someone peaceful to go through my territory, but don't want to threaten them to leave every time they do, so I post some guards. That seems fine in my book... so I don't have a problem with them doing the same. Maybe we just differ in opinion on this.
I have seen these roadblocks also and the enemy AI does not cope well. When you finally go to war with them you find that one cell has multiple armies occupying it.
On that note I have also found that enemy AI will have multiple units on the same cell but they aren't in the same army. So you destroy a "spear unit" only to find it is still occupied by a pioneer, destroy that. ONly to find it is still occupied by a small 3 unit army, only to find the cell still has a few more single units occupying.
I can't believe that the reasoning for this crappy mechanic is that it justifies the existence of terraforming spells. Besides, those spells have other uses, such as building natural barriers around your territory or finding new ways into territory for enemies you otherwise can't reach.
I have no problem with the game containing mechanics for fortifying your territory. Indeed, I hope it does. You should be able to force the enemy into choke points (or force them to use magic to go around). But the mechanics as is are half-assed. I can stick a pioneer in any spot that is only 1 passable tile wide and, short of war, can prevent anyone in the world from going through that spot regardless of the circumstances. Maybe we do just disagree, but I'm not sure how this can be justified as a good mechanic.
It's like killing a spider with a shotgun. Sure, it works. But something a little more subtle would have worked much, much better.
Often a.i blocked my path asking a death wish.
I am having the same issue and posted about it here https://forums.elementalgame.com/420511/page/1/#3140373
You're post is an even better example of why terraforming isn't the answer. You have a small starting area limited by the hero blocking a single wide piece of land and if don't start with Earth spells there's a reasonable chance you end up never having access to terraforming. You're stuck essentially not playing the game until you either learn Breon's Letters or until an AI player opens the area up for you.
They can be quite useful already if you are creative. You can use mountain ranges and hills to create regions of strategic advantage. You can control enemy invasion routes and improve your own trade and travel routes. They don`t require a poor mechanic to give them use, they have a ton of use already.
Random nonsense should not cripple gameplay attempts. This kind of nonsense is part of why I left WoW, raid encounters with built in chance elements that are unbeatable don`t make me feel more challenged, they make me me lose interest in the game. I wouldn`t sit down at a game of poker that arbitrarily decided I don`t get any facecards that hand because; the dealer is left handed and the table doesn`t allow left handed dealers to deal face cards on the fourth rotation around the table due the limits of the table design. The hand itself needs to make those decisions for it to be a good game. The same is true of games like this, I need to be challenged to use my skill, not challenged to shrug my shoulders and load a new game.
If an enemy creates a mountain on that narrow path to stop me, that is cool. If an ally has a solitary little spear buddy standing in the field picking his nose, I should be able to walk past him.
Amen. If the AI wants to do this on more challenging levels, OK. But the world should not be created such that the game becomes near-unplayable, as it did with my case. In my case, this issue resulted in my only reasonable choice as to wait tens of seasons to level up a technology I did not wish to pursue and to create enough money to recruit a champion I had zero wish to recruit. My only other option was to wait to see if the enemy AI attacked the NPC blocking the map.
No offense, but to me that seems to be a problem with world generation than it is one of game mechanics. Everyone knows that the map generator isn't perfect, that's why they have ctrl+N. I suppose you could argue that you might want to pick earth magic just in case of something like that, but I would just restart if that were the case.
The whole issue here isn't the fairness in map generation, but that he wants to be able to walk through everything that isn't hostile, and I don't agree. Now, if he wanted a trait, like stealth, that would let you pass through units, I wouldn't mind so much.
I don't think this behavior is intended. Your own caravans can block your units from moving along a road. It would seem reasonable to me to only be blocked by units you are at war with.
You completely missed the point.
I doubt the pioneers in the OP did not move because of strategy. I doubt the OP could not walk through friendly territory because of the intended game mechanics. I know there was little more I could do in my scenario.
The issue, IMO, is indeed in world generation. After tens of turns, simply saying "oh well" and hitting ctrl+N is not a viable option if you want the customer to not think your game is broken.
Um, are you sure I'm the one who missed the point? You are arguing about world generation, no one is arguing against you. This thread is about being able to move pass non-hostile units.
The pioneers there didn't move most likely because he was trying to move somewhere, and can no longer do so (blocked by the champion or city right below). In other words, that's exactly what I expect to happen in that instance. Say I don't want that pioneer going down and building a city or outpost bellow that path, and I send a unit to block it from doing so. I expect it to be blocked. I don't want the pioneer just walking through me and then build their city like I wasn't there.
I don't see a problem here. I don't want them to allow you to walk into someone's territory unless your given permission. Perhaps like in other games where you can make a treaty to allow passage through the land.
Actully they are very resonable and should remain in the game. Remember they game should not be handed to you. If you want to get pass that coke point then you will either have to Ally with the Other Kingdom/Empire, Create land or fight them. Now until they have a diplomatic options like I mentioned in a previous response or they add boats (still don't understand in a modern game why they did not have boats and sea going creatures) you will be stuck with the above options.
Firstly, you already can walk into someone's territory without permission. Brad has repeatedly mentioned that he likes the mechanic that you can try to sneak through other faction's territory and, if caught and unwelcome, the AI will demand you leave or go to war. That already exists in game.
However, that's about half the point. You CAN ALREADY make a treaty that allows people access to your lands. Non-Aggression Pact text: "Both sides agree not to attack the other for 50 seasons and safe passage through each other's territory is granted for the duration of the pack." But in the circumstances in this thread, it's irrelevant because you STILL can't pass through the other faction's units.
In the second picture in my OP I had a non-aggression pact with Tarth. It was irrelevant.
if the player is able to block a path, the AI should be able to do the same
the solutions proposed seem quite logical (alliance, terraforming) and add interest to the game
no sea unit is a shame, but then, there are no flying units either (hidden hint here )
I don't think this is a problem with world generation. If we want, as everyone in this thread seems to agree, some mechanics for walling off territory or forcing enemies through choke points, then one tile wide isthmuses and one tile wide valleys are a good thing. They are strategically valuable pieces of land because they give you a natural point to wall of your lands (that the enemy must use war or magic to get around).
The point is that if I sign a Non-Aggression Pact (see the definition in my last post) with someone, they should be allowed into my territory EVEN IF I'VE WALLED IT OFF. That's a major piece of what a Non-Aggression Pact is. And I don't think anyone in their right mind can argue that sticking a pioneer (or a stuck caravan as Nathan E points out) into a narrow piece of land should be a viable way to wall of your kingdom. It's gimmicky and immersion breaking. As a mechanic for walling off your kingdom, it's utter crap. That's why I listed it as a bug.
This is really annoying. They need to limit the square to one army.
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