Okay, time for some serious minded discussion on these littlie horrors.
The more I look at titans and their interactions the more I feel their low tech requirements, excessive scaling with levels, and keeping of those levels is totally intentional. The basic point seems to be to make them available early so that they’re always a valid strategy, even in short MP games. Lovely idea. In theory.
When combined with the fairly hefty scaling and retainment of levels and XP it means that the titan also scales well into the late game with a lot of techs up. In effect it’s capable of going from this early/mid game asset to a late game asset all by itself. Again, lovely idea. And again, in theory.
In the most basic sense it’s a lot like a starbase, starts out weak, and then with research and the investment of a lot of resources it comes out really strong. Except that the titan doesn’t need resources, only XP.
It all falls apart however quite quickly. Titans don’t scale linearly. The simple fact that they require so much less XP for their lower levels means these come much faster. Also people will tend to focus on just a few abilities first, then any others later. This means those specific abilities scale sharply early on to full power. And abilities generally (for various indirect reasons), grow non-linearly in power.
Yet the solution is far from as simple as upping the XP per level requirements or fiddling with abilities and the like. Even if we raised the XP required where still not going to get a balanced solution. Too many game modes, too many gamplay styles, and too many unique circumstances produced by a whole range of circumstances can create sharp variances in the total XP per minute per player, and those same variances can also result for one reason or another in one ship, maybe your titan, seeing a greater than expected share of the available XP. I like to play slow games, using a fairly low level AI to start off with, and then winding it up after a while when I’m established, gives me the slow start I like, and plenty of action later on to boot. Even in that situation on 4 player maps I can happily have roughly 40-50K XP earned amongst my ships by the time I’ve got a moderate portion of my higher tier research done. I’m sure in the rare MP game that goes on that long the more aggressive early segments would produce several times as much total XP earned. Even before people start gaming the system that’s going to make it nearly impossible to balance. If the titan averages even a few percent more XP than average it’s going to pick up significant level advantages.
The idea is sound on the most basic level, but there’s no way to make it work out in any kind of balanced fashion. The timeframe differences between when a titan appears and when your able to start seriously accessing late game techs is just too long, there are too many potential variables in there to make the titans levelling anything like predictable.
The only real direct solution I can see is to make each level require research before you can earn XP towards it. If the devs really want a cheap solution to this, my suggestion is that rather than writing all new code to do it, they use a slightly messy workaround with existing code. Namely create new versions of the “ExperienceConstantGainRate” and “ExperienceConstantGainLevelCap” modifiers that apply only to titans. Then make the titan XP per level values really high, say 500K per level. Then use these new unique modifiers to make the titans gain a large amount of XP up to a steadily increased level cap.
Distribute the researches over levels 5 to 8 in the tech tree and the titan can then be made to scale with all other tech aspects. No matter the surrounding circumstances it’s never going to be pulling ahead of everyone’s tech level.
The only other option I can think of that MIGHT work is to make all the upgrades, (including abilities), cost resources. But I’m not sure that’s even possible, and even if it is, I’m not sure that would go over very well with anyone.
Thoughts everyone?
Terrible Idea, It forces you to then focus more on the Titans and more on research. I don't want to play a game where I have to micromanage the hell out of everything. Sorry, but leave them as they are.
I am inclined to agree with Darksxx...i don't think that increasing the cost of the titan, or requiring more research for the titan is a very good idea. the point of the titan is to have a really good fleet fairly quickly in the game. if you make it almost impossible to increase the rank of your titan (by requiring outrageous amounts of XP before gaining rank) then you dramatically decrease the effectiveness of the titan. i do think that the titan starts out to strong. if you decreased the health and shield of a lel 1 titan then it would be more vulnerable at the start. but just like other cap ships, the titan should be able to increase in rank family quickie. i don't think that the rank structure of the titan should be touched, however the starting statistics should be altered to give the need to defend the titan until it reaches lel 4 or so...
thoughts?
Where the hell is your head at good sir!?!?
@Aqwleach: Eitheir i really suck at explanations or you just didn’t fully read my post.
It doesn’t matter what you do to the base stats, the titan is going to be ludicrously overpowered very rapidly. A titan levels so fast and scales so much with each level that it rapidly acquires a level of power far beyond it's tech level. It scales in health and damage roughly twice as much per level as a capital ship.
A level 1 titan is roughly a tech 4 item. Yes some of them i agree need adjustment, but their in the right general ballpark.
A level 4 titan is nothing like a tech 4 item, I’d argue it's too powerful even for a tech 5 item. Yet it's available long before you'll reasonably have researched the majority of your tech 4 or especially tech 5 researches.
Start moving up to a level 6 or above titan and this becomes even more apparent. Whilst titan leveling post level 6 slows down a lot, it's still quite easy to get titans to that kind of level long before you have access to the endgame techs, yet your getting a titan with endgame capabilities.
This is what I’m getting at. I'm not remotely concerned with where a titan starts out at. That can be balanced. But without massive nerfs to it's scaling, a leveled titan is NEVER going to be balanced for when you can get access to it. It's scales too high too fast.
they r not rly that OP HCs can take them down the main issue with titan is that they lvl to fast so just increase the exp requirement and it should even it out better
Titans will be out long before massed Heavy Cruisers, martox. Obscene amounts of LRMs can potentially do the job, if the Titan is alone.
Well, I don't agree either. Why is there a need to do this? All players have the same rate they can level their titan. It doesn't make for an uneven playing field if all players can do the same thing. If you make it so they are level-able like SB's then you would naturally shift your focus to obtaining more resources and just let your titan sit there until its fully leveled. I like the idea that you have to go and use the thing a lot better.
@UberPretzel:
good question...i just didn't reread my post as well as i thought my mistake
btw nice name
@KarlBar99: "It doesn't matter... It's scales too high too fast."
I think that what you are describing is what the devs wanted...a movable ship/SB that would be a huge challenge to destroy. really the only way to effectively destroy an AI titan is with a titan of your own (or a massive fleet). i agree that as the titan gains XP that it becomes really difficult to destroy, but i think that that is the point. the titan just takes the place of huge fleets. i get that it is really really hard to destroy a lel 7 titan, the best way to combat a titan like that is to have one of your own. if you really want to downplay the titan's role in rebellion, make is a lel 7 or 8 research item and increase the cost to 20000/10000/10000 just to build...but that will undo the strategy change that i think the devs were looking for with titans...
Basic game design 101 guys.
The problem here is that because of how fast it scales beyond a certian point there's no non-titan counter you can resonablly aquire that can defeat said titan, it's leveled so far that you now need multipule levels of researches beyond the current level to aquire the tools to defeat it conventionolly.
That situation is the most basic most fundamental DON'T of game design. You never make an Object X that can only be countered by itself and which is able to counter anything else.
In part because it destroys any semblance of strategy, every strategy becomes built around making your own object X better or stopping your enemy making their better. It also represents a huge balance issue because a whole range of factors can give one side an advantage in upgrading their object X, not all of which are underthe control of the oppossing player, leading to game being decided not by player skill, but by random circumstances.
This is the fundamental isue. At low levels they're perfecly balanced, you have an option or two besides another titan. But as they level they outstrip your ability to tech up and very quickly a titan becomes the only valid counter, and because of the extreme scaling, if that titans not within a level of your opponnents it's toast, and so are you because that hands the opponnent an automatic win.
Thats not even talking about the abilities, certian titans are optomised towards AoE, whilst others are optomised, or at least well equipped towards single target, giving them a significant advantage in a duel, which destroys the balance again.
Here is my one cent
To start I will say I have a fair amount of multiplayer experience my opinion is largely based off this.
How powerful should the Titan be? Should it be a one ship fleet or should it merely be a slightly stronger capital ship? Not everyone will agree on how strong it should be, some may want an unupgraded starbase to beat it, while others want it to be the ultimate game winner. I honestly don't care how strong it is as long as it's not overpowered, it's viable, it counters a few things and is countered by a few others.
Regarding Cost, Build time and Tech Level of the Titan: Ask 10 people and get 10 distinct answers. This is the beta its purpose is to find and fix technical issues, uncover game imbalances, and fish out consumer opinion of game features (and for some games help with marketing). Already there have been major changes to Titan cost and build time. So how much should the Titan cost? How long should it take to build? And when should you build it? Well.... there really isn't a *correct* answer to any of these questions. How then do we decide what numbers to put there? What it boils down to is: What do the Devs want? Do they want a ship you are forced to build asap to remain competitive? Or, do they want a ship that isn't ideal to build until some point after the 3 hour mark? The game (unless modded) will hopefully play out as the Devs intend; whether the game is a giant Titan brawl; or, the Titan is just a small, but useful, component of the late game fleet. The Devs can make it so that it's really cheap and easy to get whereas you must get it very early just like everyone else who knows how to play; or they can make it very costly and hard to get. It all comes down to how the Devs intend the Titan to be used. The player base can argue and debate for the rest of their lives, about various aspects of the Titan. If when the game is released you don't like the path the Devs chose there are a few modders that will probably be happy to help *fix* it, or this might just be the wrong game for you.
So what do I think about the Titan:
XP:
Gain: I like the rate at which the Titan levels up. But... it shares XP with capital ships, the problem with this is you want to keep your capital ships away from the combat so your Titan gets all the XP; sure there will be a few cases where you want to use your capital ships in the same well as your Titan, but so far in the beta this has been rare, meaning most of the time I would rather have my capital ships sitting a jump or two away doing nothing except not splitting XP with my Titan. I do not see this as the way the Devs intend the game to be played.
Death: If its late game and everyone has level 8-10 Titans having your level 9 titan destroyed, rebuilding it at level 1 is kind of pointless; yet I feel as though rebuilding it at the same level it was when you lost it at is cheap. Rebuilding a high level Titan for the same cost as a level 1 titan (cheaper if you count the Titan factory/cap ship crew) doesn't seem right to me; you should lose something, like a fraction of the XP this will weaken it, and create some loss, but not reset its *progress* to zero.
Strength, Power and Abilities: Honestly you can make this whatever you want; as long as it's balanced with: Cost, Build Time, Scaling, and when its practical to build.
Counters and Scaling: I don't know when the Devs intended for you to build a Titan but I do know this; If you can build a Titan 20 minutes into the game, you should be able to field a reasonable counter within the same time frame. Sure if you see it coming you can try to take out the factory, but this can be hard to do (and risky), or you can even try to build your own Titan, but I'm not sure either of these are really *counters*. Modern RTS games are more or less a massively complicated game of rock paper scissors, every choice is countered by another choice there isn't something that beats everything else and then ties with itself, that doesn't make a very interesting or competitive game.
As it is the Titans scale mostly with XP; stronger abilities, more HP, and more weapon damage. The problem is that in the current version of the beta is once you and your opponent both build Titans it turns into a game of "who feeds the other guy the least". I really don't know what to say about this, you don't want your frigates to fight because they will end up feeding the other guys Titan; you don't want your capital ships to fight because they take XP away from your Titan, so what it comes down to is that you want to fleet to be a one ship fleet. While it might sound awesome to have a one ship fleet, this makes a fleet of multiple ships less viable, a balance needs to be achieved here (between frigates, capital ships, and Titan).
Suggestion(s) for the Devs to mull over:
1. Create a Tech Tree for the Titans.
Things that can be included: building tech, damage, hp, hp regen, armor, mitigation, building time, XP attributes, move speed, jump charge up, jump engine, antimatter regen, antimatter pool, prerequisite techs that increase the cost of the titan (or even have each tech increase the cost by 2-5%). These techs can be cheap (or even free). The main purpose of this is to create scalability, where you can build the titan early game and it’s not OP, yet it scales into the late game and becomes a monster of a ship.
2. Titan XP.
I think this needs changed, I honestly think Titans shouldn't split XP with capital ships. All to often I find myself leaving my capital ships behind just so it doesn't *steal* XP from my titan where the XP is put to better use.
3. Game infrastructure
ICO friends list comes back? Sure steam is replacing alot of ICO's features; but I don't want to spam my steam friends list with people that I only want to have contact with while I play Sins.
Stats could use some work (still unfinished beta I know but thought I would mention it) new units need added and it would be nice if user actions becomes fixed.
Game Crashes: I know you guys have put alot of work into fixing this, yet this is still a major issue for many players. Beyond the crash that happens 90% time when you leave a game, I think there is a crash rate of about 1/(10-20) games. This very easily causes players to stop playing a game and move on to one that crashes less frequently.
Disconnected and Out Of Sync errors: Same issues as game crashes just effects a smaller portion of the player base
4. Random stuff
I wouldn't mind a way to tell which subfation players are in game; when you scout players you can tell if they're TEC, Advent, or Vasari; but not if they are Rebel or Loyalist.
There is always the old "Make custom maps transfer automatically when you join a game"
Steam Alt Tab: when I have the chat box selected Alt Tabbing works like Tab.(cycling though whisper for everyone in the lobby)
I think your guys are on way to make SoaSE a better game; I hope writing all this helps.
Edit: It's master1a but for some reason my account(s) are mixed up and I'm not posting on my normal account.
^^^ That is me I guess I had multiple accounts with the same email address and it decided to log me in with the other one.
What Auqia said. He put the nail on the head.
In terms of fixing titan XP, I think the easiest of fixes is that titans can only gain xp from cruisers, capital ships and starbases. Thoughts?
Well, in my first game, i have lost several time my titan ( it happen when 3 AI focus their fleet and titan on you )...
Sure, the experience learning is fast at the begin... sure that level are keep when rebuild... but xp is rest during the rebuild...
So, if your titan was level 10, having it destroy is not a great deal since rebuild will make it again level 10... if you titan was level 3-4 before being destroy, it will reborn with his actual level with 0 of whatever is needed for the next level... not a big problem since early level don't need a lot of xp...
Now, let say that you have a level 9 titan who is almost at level 10 before destruction... will reborn level 9 but the road for reach level 10 will be a long one... starting with no experience...
Well, it was so in 0.60 ... have not yet loose a titan in 0.61
[quote who="master1a_Auqia" reply="10" id="3114071"]I think this needs changed, I honestly think Titans shouldn't split XP with capital ships. All to often I find myself leaving my capital ships behind just so it doesn't *steal* XP from my titan where the XP is put to better use.
Well, capitalship can be very usefull with some of their ability fully upgraded... by example, i have always a couple of Dunov in the near gravity wheel ready to jump for restore shield of titan, a akkan with targeting uplink can be great in case of ranged battle like titan vs titan when your own titan have 30% increase in weapons range...
Problem is not the sharing of xp but having capitalship who use the hit and run tactic for survive... and since Rebellion, i only build dunov and akkan for support my titan... other are pretty useless when there is a titan vs titan fight... same the new one, who was nerfed in 0.61 have become useless... before, you can use it for capture ennemy turret who in their turn can help defeat a ennemy titan... now, it can only capture little ship and sabotage titan if he is lucky to come in ability range before being destroy in one single shoot...
As for xp, i wish no shared xp at all... who make the kill have the xp... if it is a unit who cannot increase his xp, xp is lost...
Sure, it will mess up with my playing tactic... putting a starbase at the entry point, and titan/capital at the other side of the gravity weel... Starbase make the big work, followed by the starbase/titan/caîtal fighter/bomber, when capital/titan become in range, they just need a few shoot for clean the remain of the ennemy fleet and have earn all the experience by making almost nothing... experience in combat is not like looting what happen after the battle is done, you really need to fight for gain combat experience...
EDIT ; first, fix the dam forum... the problem with quote from the OP exist for years !!!
I think auqia/master1a definitely got the main issues with the Titan. You might want to make your own post for it so the Devs will for sure see it.
The only thing I will say is that I don't think losing XP is the best way to punish players for losing their titan. I think greatly increasing the costs either for each level it has or for every time you lose your titan (or both) would be fairer. Maybe set it up so that each level increases the cost/build by 1200 credits/400 metal/400 crystal +60 seconds to build, while every time your titan is destroyed increase the costs/build time by 10%. As titans are so powerful right now if the build time gets very long you'll be at a huge disadvantage waiting for it to be rebuilt in which you're basically a sitting duck because you'll be feeding the enemy titan, or they might beeline straight to your titan factory.
You speak perfect sense here. I still do not see such a big issue here, if the titan is at higher levels overpowered to anything else bar another titan, the simple solution is just make the leveling either slower (requring more XP) or make the titan´s improvement per every increased level smaller. Anyway, i do not see here any reason to warrant such a long and complicated OP
Personally i think fully leveled Titan should be on par with or slighlty above fully upgraded SB. You can take out fully upgraded SB even without Ogrovs, right? There will be some heavy casaulties, but its totally doable, even without super-massive fleet. I think it should be the same with Titan.
Some good counters could be: 1. Letting the Ogrov be able to shoot at Titans, since Titans are slower, and 2. giving corvettes bonuses against Titans. Not huge ones, though.
Also, When I have a group that includes my Titan, the group splits into several groups, and stays that way. This is when they move.
Reading all of this makes me wonder, have you played big games with the titans? My buddy and I have been playing a huge game, custom map I created with a total of 10 players. We are going on 10 hours of game play so far and still running.
I have taken out many titans that have come my way. The key is to know where they are, cut them off, hit them with a fleet, preferrable in the presence of a starbase then move on. I could not even tell you how many titans I have killed this game but overpowered, I think not. I think they are just right.
You get capital ships right out of the gate. To get titans, you need multiple levels of tech that includes the research to just build the titan foundry, three levels and associated costs. Then you have to have a planet that you can build at that is relative save as you have to use a lot of defense points to build the foundry, pay for the expensive foundry with 2 cap ship fleet supply, 150 normal fleet supply and associated resources...then wait.
And that is for level 1. Then they do level slowly to become more powerful. I have noticed, and this may be a bug, but the passive regeneration takes forever then jumps in spurts. Also on the rebel titan, the Snip does not work properly. I will report this bug as well. It does 500-600 points of damage even with Overcharge! Supposed to do about 6000 on the one I have. Shot at another titan, minimal to no damage, and at a regular cap ship, the same. Bad bug!
Anyway, with those above who said it is fine for now, I agree. I dont' think they are overpowered or invinicible as I have killed a lot. Just learn strategy and good defense!
I am playing one right now. It is running, and every once in a while I check the forums. Back to the game. I am playing as the Loyalists.
The *bug* with snipe is that it takes shield mitigation and armor into account.
Honestly what the AI does in a 10 hour game can have little to no relevance in a usually shorter then 1 and 1/2 hour PvP game. If Ironclad wants to focus on single player balance it's their choice I was just giving my opinion as a almost solely competitive PvP player.
Then you missed the point. I know i'm not great at explaining my point but i'll try again.
You can try upping the XP requierments. The problem as i've allready stated is simple:
IT WON'T WORK
the rate at which you gain XP and the percentage of that XP that goes to your titan is not fixed. It varies based on a huge number of factors. That means there no fixed "time to reach level X". The issue here is that with any resonable XP per level value some of those times wil have the titan increasing at a rate that's appropriatte to the rate tech is making counters for such a level titan avalibile, but at other times it will be increasing in level much faster than the tech is making counters avalibile. There's no way through XP alone to make a titan allways level at least in line or slower than the rate at which your tech is increasing.
@Master1a: Yo've mostly hit the points i was trying to explain. Though i've tried to clarify one you missed above.
That said part of my OP was intended to address the point you raised. "What do the devs want?".
IMHO this whole rapid scaling thing is about making it so that the titan is avalibile early so you can see it in short games, but is able to scale well enough that it's viable at the endgame of a longer game. In effect it's able to be both and mid game and a late game asset as approppriatte. The problem is the current scaling dosen't match up in terms of rae of scaling with how quickly the endgame comes along.
@Kafisher: You won't see an issue. You've got all your econ and all your military techs by now. But a level 10 titan can and will easily arrive long before that point. A level 10 titan vs an enemy fleet thats only got half the weapon, sheild, hull, armour, and econ tech upgrades is orders of magnitude more powerful. And especially since your ability to have a well upgraded starbase everywhere the titan could go is also zero. The situation your describing is the best case scenario for killing a titan.
XP is based on what ship is destroyed so increasing the Titans XP requirements will slow how fast the titan lvls.
and ur missing the point of the Titans they r supposed to be these giant war machines that waste almost everything in there path. The devs even said that in a interview
GameSpy: What would be the best way to take down a Titan? Brian Clair: Well, if it's a low-level Titan, bring a fleet, or try to get your upgraded starbase. If it's a Titan that's already gone up a few levels, you're probably going to want to bring your own Titan to the party.
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/sins-of-a-solar-empire-rebellion/1217222p1.html
I think Karl´s point is, that it is not the brightest idea, even if the devs are doing this on purpose. Titan should not be quintessential element in the gameplay, you should still have a choice to not build it and chance to win a game that way. Technically, you can win without Titan of your own, but most probably only when you hit defenseless enemy in the period, when he is trying to build it. But that is not enough.
And i agree with that, although i think the Titans are absolutely brilliant addition to the game and i would want it to build it myself.
The question now stands, whether the titans are really all that powerful, that at certain XP levels you have no chance of beating them, regardless of the size of your fleet.
For me as a compstomper (thinking of trying PVP again when rebellion is out), the titans fill the vital role of making the game end. They should really keep that role and therefore I feel that they should remain really powerful. I don't really mind them really having no decent counter for the same reason.
I haven't really noticed the quick leveling (propably because I haven't really tried to game it), but I agree that xp leveling is much harder to balance and causes more problems then having them be techs to be researched. I'd really hate to have to try to 'game' the xp system to be able to beat human players. Having to build the upgrades for resources would also give you more choice and solve the "losing a titan doesn't hurt enough"-problem.
The same tech tree could also house the faction bonuses which would aid in making them better (due to being able to reasearch other stuff while teching faction stuff) and simply make them stand out more. ATM the factions play a bit too same imho.
In response to the OP:
Yes I agree that there is no simple on fix, but a few simple fixes overall.
1. Increase the Titan XP requrements for the first 5 levels so that when a titan faces an early LRM snipe fleet it takes longer to level (when it levels it increases its durability...making it an impossible to kill target). People should get what they pay for with LRMs...just make sure that a titan being repaired at their planet has the defensive advantage. In this way the dynamics of the game won't be too upset by titans. Titans will still be vulnerable to an early LRM spam fleet, just not for very long. They can do hit and run engagements(really only talking about the ragnarov here) and come out fine, and grab experience on the way. In this way the rebel and loyalist titan will be percieved as substantially different ships tactics wise. Ankylon moves in to stay. Ragnarov has to dance around, flirt with death, and come back stronger.
Level xp requirement suggestion
1st level ~ 1200 xp
Work from there, after level 5 the experience required should become equal with the current experience required curve. In my view higher level titans (after level 5) should require a little less experience per level to better keep pace with fleet growth.
2. Decrease titan speed, especially turn speed. The Rebel titan is the most hurt by this change, as it should be. A big ship like that shouldn't be able to hit lots of frigates right on top of it. Its strength is in initial engagement of the enemy force and picking them off if they retreat. Also, great for taking care of starbases.
3. drasitc Reduction of the damage caused by scattershot and explosive shot in the 1st level of both of these abilities(and a reduction for level 2 as well), balance these as if the players always choose those two abilities as the first, because most people in MP do anyways.
Using these abilities effectively takes almost no skill, and currently is the hardest fleet counter in the game. This is so hard of a counter that it makes early frigate production almost meaningless.
You can't apply early pressure if you know your opponent will get fed resources to early titan and just blow all your fleet to hell in the very first encounter.
Since the first encounter sets the pace of the entire conflict, having it go extremely one sided forces a resource feed to ensure that you won't be quickly overrun.
If all of these are balanced you will see titans having a very different effect on the game.
A. Even on low level titans a fleet doesn't work. With the Rebels especially a shot gun burst or two will destroy a lot of LRFs and just give it lots of tasty experience.
Sure, I agree titans should be powerful enough to fight off most things to bring the game quickly to an end. The problem is the only thing that can then stand up to a titan is your own titan. Your fleet will just get destroyed and level it up quicker, meaning its actually a bad idea to use it to support your titan. Since supporting your titan with other ships doesn't give an advantage, it becomes a game of "who can get the higher level titan faster". That's not fun. You should at least have some units (heavy cruisers or corvettes seem the best choice) that can help a lower level titan beat a higher level on if it has support.
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