So.
1). Corvettes lag the game (sometimes use intentionally by malicious players to force a gg)
2). Unless they are in massive numbers, corvettes don't seem to do much damage
Rather than impose an artificial cap on the number of corvettes, or suggest that the devs remove them from the game... why not modify corvettes to act as a one-ship strike craft squadron and balance them accordingly?
Here's how I see it working.
Any ship that can host squadrons would be able to choose to build their faction's corvette instead of a fighter or bomber squadron. Naturally, they can switch it out at any time -- corvettes become just another squadron to choose from.
Fighters: anti-light
Bombers: anti-very heavy
Corvettes: three different damage types (for three different weapons systems) + debuff, therefore moderately strong against everything, with a bit of sabotage thrown in, plus shields, which makes them beefier than fighters or bombers (owing to shield mitigation) and less prone to losing DPS over time due to squad member losses.
Their shields, armor, and damage would need to be altered accordingly, of course. Likewise, a decision would have to be made regarding which units could hit them.
Personally, since they already move like fighters, I'm in favor of having them only hit by anti-fighter weapons, for the following reasons:
1). They cause ships to spin
2). It would dramatically simplify their DPS and health modeling for balance purposes.
What say you? I'll update this post as people respond.
Two things that could be wrong with this approach.
1. Carrier cruisers become even more flexible, able to switch between fighters, bombers, and corvettes to counter almost everything.
2. Per command point, fighter and bomber squads do more damage than a single corvette.
If...and this is a big if...if the "fighter motion" of corvettes can be disabled or turned off, it may be worth considering moving multiple ship types to the corvette object class...
Smaller ships like LFs, LRFs, flak, scouts, etc. could be made corvette objects while larger ships like HCs and LCs could be left as frigate objects....
This would allow differentiation between "large" ships (presumably with lots of DPS and HP) and "small" ships, which could help to balance powerful AoE abilities...
For example, an AoE ability that does damage could be set to do 100 damage to corvette class objects and 300 damage to frigate objects...in this manner, you could make abilities still useful against cruisers without making them instanpop weapons against smaller ships...
Not saying it should be implemented, but this type of differentiation could be invaluable for modding purposes...and if multiple corvette types were to exist as an equivalent to "small frigates" then I'd rather not tie them to carriers...
This is a great idea, but instead of having a carrier being able to carry them, why not have them in a squadrons of 10 when built from the factory, the models made smaller, and have them controlled like you would strike craft. Yet instead of getting replenished by a carrier they would get replenished by being in a friendly gravity well?
This would make them excellent attrition units, allowing you to retreat squads off titans and get FREE replenishment of forces in a friendly gravity well while the titan still has pressure maintained on it. In this way over time you could harass the titan down
Replenishment should take some time, say 15 seconds per corvette.
The replenishment would be reduced by 50% if there are enemy forces in the gravity well. All the elements are there, i think this is a completely doable solution that would reduce online lag.
A squad of 10 corvettes would cost 10 logi. Give corvettes some more unique abilities and you have a fun starting unit that would make the early game VERY action oriented. Also seluecia, you can order both fighters/bombers and corvettes to hold position where they will commence firing upon their target at maximum dps.
1). This is why you balance corvette damage output so that they don't do more damage than a fighter or bomber squadron to any single target except perhaps light frigates. The trick will be to find a balance of damage types and DPS for corvettes wherein corvettes will be BETTER against things bombers and fighters are not, but not as good as fighters against light armor and not as good as bombers against very heavy armor.
2). This doesn't have to be so. This is why you balance corvette damage output based on their status as squadrons.
In other words: create new taxa for units to modulate vulnerability? A fascinating suggestion that, to be honest, deserves its own thread. In all seriousness: creating taxa for ships (small, large, massive) might help with existing balance issues.
That said, it doesn't address the problem of lots of corvettes running around and lagging computers.
I'd considered this, but it's problematic from two perspectives:
1). The construction of corvettes is still essentially unlimited -- you're just building them in batches of 10 instead of individually. Consequently, processors would still be chugging over the number of polygons.
2). The need to implement reinforcement mechanics for corvette squadrons would be problematic if they didn't have a host, whereas worthwhile reinforcement mechanics already exist for strike craft.
Again: the idea of this thread is to limit the headcount of corvettes in a way that is NOT ARBITRARY. By attaching corvettes to squadron hosts, you are essentially limiting the number of corvettes to the same presence strike craft squadrons had prior to Rebellion. Since 1 corvette is about the same number of polys as a squadron of strike craft (probably less, actually), this will solve the processor overburden problem.
All you need to do is rebalance corvette DPS and health in accordance with their new status.
If the only concern is lag, putting corvettes at 3 or so fleet supply (and buffed stats accordingly) would help immensely...
1) Making corvettes smaller was an oversimplified explanation about making them have a smaller impact on the CPU(as well as making them physically smaller). By making them physically smaller so they have different zoom use you have a justification to reduce poly counts on corvettes (just like strike craft, the players wouldn't be zooming in on them so much).
2) Okay I can see where this would be a problem if you don't have the game programmed for this yet. Another solution would be to add a special corvette only carrier that looks/named in all respects like a regular carrier so that A) players can hide their strike craft/ bombers/ corvettes and carry an unknown surprise. Keep the carriers tech level 1 and keep them countered by LF. This would definitely give carriers a new mode of play(surprise!), and it is justified considering the pains that have been taken to limit them in rebellion.
As far as this discussing being arbitrary is concerned, what definition of arbitrary are you using?
I"ll make an assumption and go with number 2.
arbitrary [ˈɑːbɪtrərɪ]adj
5. (Law) Law (esp of a penalty or punishment) not laid down by statute; within the court's discretion
There hasn't been a dev who has communicated what is on or off the table concerning corvettes, so a dev who provides effective communication about this would be instrumental in assisting in solving the issue so that there is no arbitrary conversation.
If the decision has been finalized that corvettes for all intents and purposes are to remain the same considering movement and organization, then at least give them more researchable abilities to make them more relevant(from a military standpoint). They could be a very fun unit with a player controlled ability or two, or some more debuffs. Honestly, If corvettes were to be still subject to change then I would assume that YES, some serious hours would be needed to improve them. It would be far worse to release the game without making the large changes necessary to improve them. It is quite clear that the debate that they need to be changed in some way has raged among the devs, we really do need to know what is a waste of your time and what is not. Unless a Dev steps up to the plate on this, there will only be arbitrary(#2) conversation.
On a tangent, I receive quite a bit of jump lag (even in 1v1's) when my full fledged fleet jumps. It is VERY bad when 2000 corvettes jump in (takes about a minute for server to respond). I don't know if this is a bug or server limitations, but this makes endgame almost unplayable.
I really don't see the need for or purpose of the Corvettes, so I propose removing them from the game because they can contribute to lag. If that reduces the new features of Rebellion too much then I propose adding two more planet types to replace the Corvettes.
I agree. As it is now they're glorified fighters/bombers and paradoxically not as good at it.
If not remove them make them a kind of multi purpose destroyers that I suggested in the thread "Make corvettes bigger."
I was thinking corvettes would act as a behind-the-lines guerrilla unit, something like a warp capable fighter, with fighter weapons. i would hope to see them weak against fighters as well, so that people dont mass spam them, and use them to defend mass bombers from fighters. i imagined them a unit made to blitz past the frontlines, and inflict damage more towards infrastructure than anything. disabling logistics structures, interfering with trade lanes, and dying in a fire when they are met with a half capable fleet/a good mine or 2
Just my useless two cents, but when corvettes and space combat come to mind, I tend to think special forces type stuff. For instance, having say a stealth corvette that can sit on the edge of an enemy gravity well and provide a *Recon* role, ( I dislike simple scanning, you gotta risk something for that little bit of extra knowledge )or something like a saboteur that can perhaps discreetly slow down or even leech little bits of income, or bring a shipyard offline for 30 seconds or so, or spread propaganda covertly. A counter would be something like a scout ship, or if a vessel gets too close to them. Granted they would be small, fragile, as well as agile, and pricey but with re-searchable upgrades. It sounds as if people are calling for a slightly-more-survivable yet expendable horde to bulk up their fleets, but isn't that the main role of frigates? I am of the opinion that the flavor of Sins seemed to miss that covert element for the craft person, where face to face open combat prevailed and there was little to no intelligence gathering at all, and a the corvette could fill that intel-type role well, granted the whole thing would change the game entirely.
Just a note as well, I am in the US Navy, , so perhaps my view is also a bit jaded towards "Proper Fleet Structure".
Note that before I get a bunch of "Well Titan counter this, Titan counter that", this is about the corvettes, and I did say my two cents was useless.
Since you're in the navy why didn't you think about the nasty habit corvettes have had of being cheap and still capable of delivering wast amounts of damage to enemy fleets? I'm thinking torpedo and mine laying corvettes.
Would be fun if Sins implemented something like that.
To answer your question Ravagus, modern day corvettes are being adapted more and more for a "Surface Submarine" role, something akin to a stealthly close to shore role, as they are quite litterally called LCS, Littoral Combat Ships, and they operate in the littoral, or the area near shore. That is exactly what I was implying.
With the varied factions, certainly the ability to go deep behind enemy lines and lay mines would be a great idea and would definitely support the idea of a corvette in a special way. However, in order to balance this, making them cost more was simply a suggestion, it would be overwhelming to have 100 corvettes suddenly jump and lay mines at once. Humorous for you perhaps, but very unsporting for your opponent. But to make them worth there value, give them faction specific abilities is what I am recommending. For instance a rebel corvette could camp in a gravity well, cloaked, and leech money, or a Loyalist could sneak in and disable a factory for a little while. Things like that, it is all speculation, and I highly doubt that it will even come to pass, but for the sneaky enthusiasts like myself, I would love to see them in a covert utility role rather than direct combat.
I understand.
Though I don't know if cost is the best way to limit them. I 'd suggest a hangar/port building for corvettes.
Don't know if I'd like it though. It's a good idea but I'm not much for stealth and micromanagement. Brute force is the way I usually do things in Sins.
@DeadOnImpact:
I like the way you think with regard to corvettes as scouts and saboteurs, as well as the lack of stealth operations capability in Sins, but I think scout frigates (with a few researchable upgrades) would be better suited to filling that role. I mean, the Arcova can already plant explosives, and all scouts are able to phase jump through inhibitors. Give them a stealth ability (operating like the Diplomatic Immunity ability given to envoy vessels) and they'd be able to deep strike with no problem; give them a sabotage ability (unique for each faction) and they'd be able to do their thing.
Just completely hypothetically:
Back to corvettes:
Within the Sins mythos, corvettes are an intermediary between strike craft and frigates in terms of both health and damage. They are beefier than fighters, weaker than frigates, they have shields, and their weapons package allows them to do decent damage to everything.
To give corvettes the abilities necessary to deep strike AND sabotage would outmode scouts completely; in addition, it simply wouldn't solve the CPU overburden problem.
You'd have to reduce corvette polys by a helluva lot to make a significant impact on CPU performance. I'd rather just limit their numbers.
Why go to the effort of creating a special corvette carrier, when regular carriers will do the job just as well?
My apologies: I didn't intend to imply anything about you or the devs.
By "arbitrary limit," I meant a "throw-up-your-hands" solution wherein you apply, say, a 100 headcount limit for corvettes because you couldn't think of any other self-regulating way to limit their numbers.
My argument here is that Sins already has several built in self-regulating methods to limit the number of strike craft, namely:
1). The need for a balanced fleet, which calls for allocation of specific amount of supply into certain kinds of ships and their counters
2). The economic limitations imposed by increased supply caps
3). The relatively large supply costs of carriers and capital ships
Here we have a systemic method by which players are limited in the number of carriers (and therefore strike craft) can be employed. If corvettes were strike craft built and housed by carriers, then their headcount would be limited by game mechanics already in place, thereby reducing CPU overburden.
All you have to do is balance their DPS and health accordingly.
For example: the average TEC fighter, with no upgrades, has:
Likewise, the average TEC bomber, with no upgrades, has:
If corvettes were available as a kind of jack-of-all-trades one-man-squadron superfighter with shields and a special ability, targetable only by flak frigates and fighters, they would appear, hypothetically, as follows:
You'll note that, in total, the corvette has only 250 hull and 100 shields, exactly as they are now and somewhat less than a full fighter or bomber squadron; a large group of fighter squadrons could kill one in one pass. This is intentional: they can't lose DPS the way a fighter squadron does, AND they get shield mitigation.
Their DPS, however, has been buffed so that they are now somewhere between fighters and bombers; but unlike fighters and bombers, they are capable of taking on LRFs, light frigates, AND "caster" frigates with impunity. Their shields give them unparalleled survivability against flak, since shield mitigation and shield regeneration give them durability. I should also note that the listed DPS is misleading, since they deliver all their damage in one "alpha strike" burst before coming around for another pass (during which time their weapons reload). It's possible that a single pass by two or three corvettes could destroy a Cobalt.
This is only a suggestion, of course; but I think it could work.
Hey no need to apologize you didn't offend me. Trust me, if you've read some of the threads where people have offended you would know very well. I just broke out the definition copy/paste because the way you used arbitrary really was confusing as it could have gone a lot of ways. I just want to facilitate clear communication.
That being said, I don't like hard unit caps either. Reducing poly counts isn't very tough, especially if its for ships that don't have to look too amazing most of the time(like a reduced size corvette). Sins has an already amazing zoom built into the game why not use it some more?
As it is I already think corvettes are too big, their flight pattern looks clunky and they run into big ships all the time. If they were smaller they wouldn't have these problems because you wouldn't actually see them crashing into things all the time. Yes fighters and bombers do the same thing, but you don't really notice it much of the time. Also fighters and bombers have a clear military design, while corvettes still haven't found their place.
@Deadonimpact
Nice to see another navy guy around these parts. I got out in '08 off of a fast attack submarine. What type of ship were you stationed on?
There is a potential solution. Play 7DS as the Rogue and use the warhammer drones. Imagine spawning corvettes from a frigate factory -or spawning 2-3 different types of corvettes from antimatter.
Hey, a potential solution, but have fun discussing how to beat the crippling lag.
Yeah i was just thinking about self respawn via antimatter, that could be an elegant solution.
Balancing would have to be worked out. What would the cooldown be, how many would be deployed, what would they do, abilties present, what armor and weapon type, etc... These spawn from an ability that requires L6 and is only on 2 capitals and the thing we call a rogue Titan(ish super capital), but on a frigate factory, not level 1, but levels via research and you can have some fun options for the buggers. If Corvettes are drone piloted, they can 'decay' over time and die when their expiry time is reached, keep them from clogging up the game.
Whatever helps, helps.
I definitely understand and enjoy seeing the different viewpoints here, and you might have a point simply using the scout frigates for that role, i never used too many to began with, just a few for minesweeping ( When they actually found some ). But I can see the corvettes becoming a cheaper version of the frigate screen rather than any kind of role. Just to take a shot from a different side, what about having them as a stronger version of a Defense Force? Stronger than the Strike Craft that float about in the hangers, but still limited to the gravity well of the home planet?
@Deadonimpact Nice to see another navy guy around these parts. I got out in '08 off of a fast attack submarine. What type of ship were you stationed on? [/quote]
I wasn't PCS'd to a ship, I did Direct Support deployments to several for a few months at a time. My next stop here in about a month or so is some nice relaxing shore duty in Yokota Japan ^.^
lol, I hope you enjoy shore leave.
I've suggested in another thread to tie corvettes to gravwells (strip'em jump drives!). Planets would build them automagically.
Player would be able to set production speed to none/min/med/max with varying degrees of penalties for planet production of credits/metal/crystal.Would need a dedicated button for that.
Number of corvettes would be limited by the number of tactical slots, but they would not actually take up a slot. They would still take up fleet supply.
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