Dear Sins Devs,
I realize this will probably fall on deaf ears, or blind eyes as the case may be. However, I would like to respectfully request that I be allowed to return my preorder access and be refunded my money.
I also realize I will be insulted and ridiculed by the countless people who have blind appreciation of this game and the devs. I know because I used to be one of them (fans not devs) .
When I bought Sins Trinity, I overlooked all the various pitfalls, big and small, and huge. In my mind, I told myself, "hey its ok, the game is great but it has problems cuz it was made in 2008. No biggie.
Now after I learned that preordering the game allowed you access to the Beta I must say, i am completely and horribly unsatisfied and left with a feeling of having spent 30$ on what is essentially a MOD.
The only thing that is different with Rebellion are Titans and the "updated" graphics. (Sorry but shadows and modern particles to me does not equal "we updated all the graphics") In fact, if you look at the textures of everything, from planets to ships, to the general design of the game, everything has remained EXACTLY the same.
Especially the fact that as soon as you have any more than 3-4 complete fleet players or more than 2 galaxies your PC will most definitely slow down to a chug, chug, die. And please don't blame my PC, I ordered the parts and built it myself about a year ago, spending almost 4,000$ on it. Believe me, my PC isn't the problem here...
Dear devs, what in the world have you been doing for the past 4 years? Please don't insult my intelligence any more by trying to put forth the explanation "we added lots of stuff", because making the addition of 6 ships (titans) and a few smaller ships (new capital ship is ugly and useless) and a few tech options when EVERYTHING else remains exactly the same definitely DOES NOT deserve my 30$, much less the full price that others will have to pay if they don't preorder and havent bought Trinity.
Like I said, I realize that the devs have no obligation to return me my money, and my life is definitely not gonna come to an end with 30$ less. But I can't shake the overwhelming feeling that I've been tricked into buying something that absolutely definitely was not worth my money. When compounded with how disappointed I am as a gamer because I was really really REALLY looking forward to this, then my sincere and deep dissatisfaction can be understood.
It's really sad to see a developer resort to tricking people into buying something that is almost the exact same product that was released 4 years ago. Regardless of whether or not any Dev reads this, or if anyone stops to take me seriously instead of just writing me off as a "troll" one thing is certain:
I was a self proclaimed "biggest fan" of this game and the developer. I personally got 4 or 5 of my friends to buy Sins: Trinity. They loved Trinity, and saw past its flaws like I did. I was the first to get the Beta and preorder of my friends. I have shown them video of my gameplay experience and told them all my really sad let downs with this "expansion". No story once again except for an intro that is exactly the same thing as the trailer, graphics that are BARELY better than Trinity with ALL the problems of slow down from the first game, very few additions in terms of gameplay, mainly because of titans and a few measly tech options...I could go on and on...but I'll stop here.
You've definitely lost a fan and a customer my dear devs, as well as the few people that I got to join in on this game. While I won't pretend that is going to "teach you a lesson" or anything, if you have any business acumen you should realize that the transformation of sincere and appreciative fans into disillusioned consumers that feel betrayed and tricked is quite possibly the worst thing a company can have happen. I hope for your own sake that you don't apply this business model in the future, because you can only fool people for so long until you become an "Activision" even if not as financially successful, where your "credibility" for quality and honesty is down the drain even though you have gained that rote following of people that will buy whatever you put out no matter what.
Sincerely,
A very let down fan.
It's clear Rebellion was never meant to be Sins II--the multicore, 64 bit, hi-def sequel.
I can't speak for everyone but I was not expecting a complete rework of the game. I understood it was the same engine with improvements and the game was meant to expand the Sins universe with a few options that hadn't been possible in previous releases.
I won't try to point out the new victory conditions, particle effects, entity classes, code optimization's and extensions made and the like as you see that as just "modding".
What they have done is add elements that change the dynamic of the game and make it play quite differently--while still retianing continuity with the original Sins releases.
The beta is the time to voice your concerns and observations --but in a constructive way that helps improve the game. "It sucks and I'm done with it and they'll never get it right" doesn't help much. It also is sour milk to the rest of us whoi want to work through the beta and see improvements.
You could have asked for a refund by email to support and you could have started a thread about things you liked and didn't like without pronouncing the entire effort as "full fail". That was just petty.
Four months doesn't make you "Sins Biggest Fan".
Sorry you feel let down and I don't dispute your right to state your impressions. I just hate the, "game over--and I'm taking my ball with me so no one else plays" post.
its only beta atm
I think there are games out there that has a lot less things and charged a lot more.
This is a wambulance, I hope you enjoy it more than Soase Rebellion.
CoD would be a good example. Yes I am bringing this arguement in here.
And they gave you all the info before the beta began on what exactly is in the Rebellion. There were no surprises. It was mostly your fault that you didn't bother to pay attention.
Also as stated 4 months doesn't make you the "biggest fan". Some people have been playing since 2008.
I understand your point about constructive criticism, but I hope you understand that the level of dissatisfaction I have is because I was expecting a Beta to have small - medium issues that could be resolved if brought to the devs attention. I most assuredly was not expecting to pay 30$ for the exact same game I bought a long time ago. There is nowhere I can start to "help them fix things" because they have taken a fundamentally dishonest and erroneous approach to what they sold to me by re-releasing a game with very minor additions and changes and calling it an expansion worth 30-40-50$ (depending on various factors).
The entire product is nothing more than a Mod. I'm sorry, you can nit pick all the little details you want and add them up and say that they changed over a 100 things, but that's not a valid way of looking at this product. Its the exact same game, with the exact same limitations, problems and eye sores of the game they release FOUR YEARS AGO but with Titans and a few tech options and a few new minor ships with a few tech options. That's not an expansion. That's an update. At BEST it could be called a Mod. And sadly enough, there are already FREE mods on this site itself that give you EXACTLY what Rebellion gives you, but with more variety.
And what are you talking about "four months makes me the biggest fan"? I said that I thought of myself as their biggest fan personally and metaphorically since 2008 and got as many friends I could to buy Trinity, and with this re-release they've turned me into a disillusioned client who feels tricked.I'm not sure what you meant by the four months thing...
As for trying to email support, I would gladly thank you for giving me the link or the email address, as I could not find it anywhere on this site or with search engine. I would much rather have emailed them personally because believe it or not, I would much rather have a higher chance of someone reading this who actually could appreciate what I said rather than appearing like I'm vying for attention on the forums.
I also don't understand your last comment...I'm not "taking my ball with me" or anything like that. I posted as politely and logically as I could what made me feel tricked and unsatisfied about this re-release of a game I already bought.
I'm sorry, but re-reading your post it is very apparent to me that you just don't agree with me, but having no logical points to offer in rebuttal, prefer to attack my message as being puerile or poorly expressed.
Ok, seriously, I never said I've been playing this game for 4 months. I said I got 4-5 friends to buy Trinity when it came out on Steam to be specific in detail. I have been playing this game almost since release.
Also, it's too convenient and too easy for you to blame the consumer for "not paying attention". That's the most ass-backwards explanation I could think of. I was on this site very often, I read all the previews and interviews and exclusive "this" and special "that" released on the site and on gaming sites.
Everyone, including the official site, was talking and describing Rebellion as this amazing expansion that did away with all the technical problems of the original release while at the same time adding so many things that it should be its own game.
I even read in several different reviews that Titans would have the ability to DESTROY planets, something that is obviously not the case, as they just shoot a few more bombardment shells. Thats it.
I can't help but notice how instead of rebuking ANY of the points I made you and others are either choosing to insult me or complain that my dissatisfaction is somehow my own fault or my message is just "stupid".
Here's the email: support@stardock.com
Here is a thread for how to ask on technical issues and send reports and the like as well.
https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/406587
I'm not a Stardock employee or moderator so I had to go look it up--sorry.
I do understand what you mean and how you feel. I think you really just had a higher expectation based on what you wanted rather than what was stated and offered.
What I disagree with you on is that instead of sour milk posting you should have come on and stated specifically what it was you had expected to be there that wasn't. That would have been valid and constructive.
As it stands it's just, "I expected more". More what? Based on what?
I don't think it was so much looking for attention that made you post--it was just reflex kicking the dog because you were disappointed.
Stardock has been more forgiving in refunding than just about any game company I have ever seen online. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have a problem if you asked.
I have a laundry list of things I think they should do. Some I think are important for game play. I know they won't all be there and some won't even get considered. If I feel really let down, I'll just move on.
I'll be disappointed at that but I appreciate the game for what it offers too. There aren't any other games to go to that compare to Sins.
As a somehwat experienced beta tester for more than one company, I also understand how hard it is to please the public and how venemous a small minority of players will become when they feel slighted.
You don't come across as venomous and were fairly polite but you didn't offer any advice on how the game could be improved--just a statement of dissatisfaction rendered as a final judgment.
Betas are ways to work on fixing and improving--that's why it was offered to you.
To me Rebellion has filled all the qualifications of being an expansion. Its not often you get an expansion that more than doubles the gameplay possibilities. Sure new ships can be seen as "easy" additions, but there have been some other significant changes that take time to properly design and implement.
The sub-factions alone give you the ability to play the same race in two completely different ways, their unique techs having a significant impact on the game. Whereas before we had 3 factions that were largely the same with only slightly different ways of doing things, now we effectively 6 factions that have completely different strategies and ways of playing the game. If thats not a significant addition to the game I don't know what is.
Okay maybe this guy went a little extreme to demand a refund, but he did say a lot of what i was thinking. I personally am completely unimpressed with rebellion, regardless of whether or not it is the first stage of a beta. I'll continue to play the various future versions of the beta with an open mind. Here is to optimistically hoping for more features (techs, ships, planets, effects, ect.) to be showcased to us loyal sins fans.
by the way issued some karma to the original poster for atleast voicing his opinion and not yielding to the naive general consensus of this beta...
Ok, so aside from the shadows and a couple other additions, I could accomplish most of it in a mod. So, yes, it's little more than a mod.
Modders can put years into projects like this. You reference it like there's nothing there, it's kind of insulting. I've put thousands of hours into SOA2 building up it's current code base. If it were a full time paying job, I'd have nearly two years of work just doing part of what it took to get the mod to it's current form.
We work for free, they don't. In either case, it's a lot of work.
It isn't a whitewash of all the unfulfilled things we'd like to see either. If you're going to complain, point to what you want--not just gripe about it not being there without showing what "it" is.
What's missing here is a clear synopsis of what it is everyone wants that they are not seeing and suggestions about how it might be included.
Additionally, the work shown so far opens up a lot of doors in the modding side of things--I am biased there. That alone is exciting to me.
There's no intended criticism for frank opinions directed towards improvement. Luxangel isn't wrong in his opinion and neither are you jadurnik. Just provide feedback on what would make it better along with the "I don't like this".
My favorite and really satisfying change is the inclusion of the flagship and occupation victories. Awesome.
What I haven't seen yet and HIGHLY want to see are changes and more options in and for Galaxy Forge. Fix the broken template editor, expand it's features and add new features usable in it. If Galaxy Forge remains as is, I'd see that as a failure (in that area).
It's a beta now, they have time to work on it.
But that is part of the point your a modder who took a game and turned it into something different and original because you wanted to see how star trek would look in sins. (By the way SOA2 is one of my favorite mods!) However, your mod can have flaws or maybe an update can not be quite up to par because its done for free and and everyone acknowledges that. But people payed for rebellion and have every right to demand more from this game, especially considering you yourself said you could create a lot of rebellion in a mod for free. The developers are being payed to create rebellion or will profit from the sales of the game, and they should feel compelled to create new features that are truely unique and new because they owe the fans, both past and future.
And where they will get rewarded or punished is in sales and with the reputation it gains them. Betas are for fixing.
you are absolutely right, betas are for fixing. But what happens when there isn't much material to fix? Be realistic this is quite simply the same game I've been playing since 2008, with a splash of new material.
and when a game that you pre-ordered is unsatisfying those sales are already gained and profits are made...
although this isn't a forum about paths to a better rebellion, to satisfy Sinperium here is a few problems and ideas:
1. problem: this is the same game that has been out since 2008. it will not require me to alter my strategy or approach to winning a game of sins. Possible solution: new methods of gathering resources through legitimate commerce or strip mining(higher extraction rate/ with depletion of resources), better variation of ships (Why add one corvette when you could add a few different types of corvettes or frigates (i.e. multirole frigates (can do alot but really modest in all regards))
2. problem: No difference between loyalist and rebels besides a different titan and corvette Possible solution: different paint schemes, symbols or graphics. Make them different economically (I.e. rebels don't collect taxes but have higher extraction rates)
3. problem: a hand full of new technologies. Possible solutions: Make me research differently (for example) if i research tech A then maybe Tech B become unavailable, more costly, or available later. <- ultimately making my choice impact the direction of my particular game.
It will change strategy--that's clear even with only two related factions seen so far. I like your ideas and something like them may be there--or not. Other people would want other things (me for example).
I do like the idea for choosing one tech path loses you others.
In some ways it is definitely an expansion--and they didn't represent the ships and factions as anything "never seen before". On the other hand, the engine improvements and newly coded assets are just that--not back portable, etc. So in that sense, it is a new game.
I never had the impression that this would make old Sins obsolete or replace it and make it irrelevant. It is a new release and comes bundled with the original game and three expansions. Never really was billed as "a complete reinvention of the game".
For a new purchaser, it's a bargain--he gets everything that came before plus the new content and the options to play any version(s) he or she wants.
Those of us that have played it before can choose to look at it with a jaundiced eye but I was never under the impression that this was a full new incarnation--though if you had crammed this much into earlier versions of Sins they would have minidumped on start-up and then burst into flames.
I'd call it an expanded re-release myself. From what I have seen so far, I consider it worth the cost. Things we have heard but haven't seen yet are ships that can destroy planets, a faction that doesn't need planets, etc. Those are new things.
Posting them as feedback might accomplish something--bundling them on "you have failed me for the last time" threads probably won't. As a beta tester, you actually have a chance to suggest changes. I'd take advantage of the opportunity.
I experienced drastic performance improvements from Diplomacy, in my limited tests. That's full value for money right there.
Well, these quote show that it is maybe really your fault...
Agree with you that there is no ship able to destroy planet in this beta, agree with you that Stardock have speak about so ship... problem is that you don't remember everything that that have say...
They have say that one of the Vasari faction will have a Titan who can be used as homeworld, that these titan will be able to suck dry a planet of his resource and transform it in a death asteroid... as for the beta 1, it only include the 2 TEC faction, so it is normal to not have these Vasari Titan...
Are you sure that you have play the 2008 version... ask it because between the 2008 version and Rebellion, there is thousand of thing who have change... there was no starbase in 2008, no mines, no torpedo ship, no envoy ship, no titan, no corvette, etc...
As being a modder myself, i can say that it will have be impossible to make what is in Rebellion on the 2008 game... by example, the engine texture limit at the time was only 400... if modding have reach great level with sins, it is because devs have listen to modders and greatly expand the modding possibilities since 2008... and titan in mod, until now, was only glorified capitalship ( in my case personal case, glorified mobile starbase )...
Sure, if you compare Trinity with Rebellion, the change is not so big... sure, as previous owner of sins, ent, and dip ( or for any owner of trinity ), it will have be more pleasant to have a cheaper add-on version like for the two previous released... now, by buying Rebellion, i will end with with 2 sins + 2 ent + 2 dip + 1 reb...
Well, it is certainly better that the Supreme Commander Forged alliance... a so called stand alone expension but where online play was limited to the new race seraphim if you don't own a serial of the original Supreme commander... SupcomFA only add little thing, like a orbital weaponery that some talented modders have use for make orbital spaceship and battle... well, it happen that i like SupCom and SupComFA and not SupComII because in place of add features, it remove features... Since 2008, each year, Stardock have give us a expension pack who add a lot to the original game... the only complain is the price tag of these last one... and this only concern previous owner of the game ( trinity or fip ) who was able to have a 25% discount... for newcomers, the 40$ full price ( i hate these xx.99 $ price ) is not so bad when you think that they will have sins+ent+dip+reb...
Well, it is your right to ask a refund but remember that it is only the first beta... if you have follow the beta for the original sins, you will aknowledge that a lot of thing can change during a beta with stardock... they do listen to customer report and request... cannot make everybody happy but they try...
As trickery, the only thing that you can complain about is the move from impulse reactor who was a annouced feature to Steam ( people have learn about it in a externe article )... for the rest, it seem to be like they have announce it...
By the way, as modders, i am pretty sure that the majority of modders will move to Rebellion, for use the new features or discover some features who was not announced... i don't think that there is any sane modder who wish to return modding sins 2008... moving our glorified capitalship ( modders titan ) to a real titan and having one free slot for a new capitalship... same thing with corvette, by example in a star war mod, the slot can be used for the popular CR90 corvette ( hammer head )... these is benefice in rebellion for modders who will allow us to make better mods that previously... sure there is not (yet ) everything that we ask for but there is more hope with a sins II and a iron3 engine ( iron2 multicore x64 engine is already made but it is for a ironclad fantasy game )...
Point is that it is too much early for judge Rebellion... final version will not be like the Beta... in fact these beta have only 33% of what can be the final version... sure, it is right to ask a refund but not based on half fact or wrong fact... accuse devs of trickery will not help you...
I am dissapoi
Bang on, my only difference is my optimism isn't as brilliant right now.
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