I have a question for y'all self-taught experts in things shiny and coloful (lcd displays, not dwarven gems), so gather round and listen my sad story.
In 2009, I saw that a pearl among the monitors is coming to the market - Dell 2209WA, a true 8-bit color e-IPS, with wunderbar colors, slightly larger input lag, I give you that, but otherwise an excellent panel. We lived happily since then, but recently, an ugly yellow vertical line of non-functional blue sub-pixels have scarred this beauty, so it's time to claim my warranty.
Sadly, the monitor is discontinued, so I stand before the question what to pick instead? Dell support was kind enough to supply me with Dell U2311H, but since it is just a 6-bit + FRC panel, I mind the flickering caused by the temporal dithering. Also, the left side of the panel is tinted towards blue, while the reight is slightly more red. What's more, the panel emits a high-pitched sound when operating - not too loud, but enough to be bothersome. I am obviously not too happy with such a replacement, but what model would you recommend? I will gladly pay something extra to get on par with the 2209WA celestial perfection, but sadly, all the "new" models seem like serious downgrades.
A couple options that might work out for you.
One is to keep talking to Dell customer support. From what I've read they can be pretty helpful compared to other companies, and I've seen at least one person in a similar boat (the 2209 replaced with a 2311 that they were unhappy with) talked with them for a bit. It took a few replacements and a discussion on why the more expensive 2311 isn't better in all respects, but they eventually ended up with a U2410 as a replacement, which is a very nice monitor in all respects, and probably a good bit better than the 2209wa. Your mileage might vary, but if you're willing to be persistent you might get lucky.
If you simply must have another 2209wa, I've been able to google up some (ie at amazon). So you could replace it.
Another good option is the HP ZR24w. Its also 6 CCFL and true 8 bit like the 2209wa for a reasonable price, and is a bit bigger (24"). Basically a newer version of the panel for the 2209wa's. I've read that the default calibration leaves a bit to be desired though, so you'd need to mess with that. And there's mixed feelings on reliability.
Tftcentral has some good resources if you're interested into looking at panel parts databases and the like, so something there might help you along if you are interested in more research. In any direction that you go, good luck in finding something that you can love anew.
If you can find a Dell 2408WFP, which is also IPS and 24", you would more than likely be happy like me!
Nice work, FallingStar0280.
http://www.amazon.com/Dell-2408WFP-UltraSharp-Widescreen-Definition/dp/B0018LJYFC
Thank you for your kind advices, I looked up the 2408WFP, and it has a staggering input lag of >60ms, which is a deal breaker for me.
Also, I don't want to move up in resolution too much since that would mean investing in stronger video card also. 1680x1050 of 2209wa was just perfect for me, enough vertical space for working with text and terminals, games not too jaggy, good performance. I could go with 1920x1080 of most 16:9 23'' panels, but 1920x1200 is just too much. 2410 is a wide gamut monitor, which brings another set of problems since Windows 7 don't support them (so you get over-saturated colors in normal applications). I agree that it's a probably good monitor overall, maybe the best replacement ... from Dell.
If I resigned on Dell, I thought Eizo 2335w e-IPS 23'' looked nice too, if a bit pricey.
I wonder if 6-bit + FRC monitors can come even close to true 8 bit monitors color reproduction wise. All the reviews assure us that yes, of course, but when I compared the u2311h and 2209wa in clone mode, side by side, the u2311h looked like a cheap TN in comparison.
Then, with any luck you might find one of the one you liked best on Amazon (Dell 2209WA)...
Give it a try... According to my search, there are 10 left...
Thank you, I will consider it.
If you aren't stuck on Dell, I'd look at the Viewsonic's as well.
Link
Of course, I also looked at HP ZR24W that looks promisin. - 8bit panel, excellent input lag of 8ms, manageable ghosting, good color uniformity and reproduction, but... a bit too high resolution. 1920x1200 seems a killer for my measly GeForce 560Ti.
Also, since my warranty is covered by Dell, I fear I will have to pick one of their pieces - I don't know if the law forces them to return money if the product in warranty is no longer in production and customer is not satisfied with a substitution.
Seems they have established two disjunctive segments ( I speak only about non-TN monitors, since there is no going back to TN for me):
1) casual users - media-centric aspect ratio 16:9 (bad for me, don't like it), crappy color reproduction and uniformity, good input lag and ghosting, low resolution and price
2) professional and business users - computer-centric aspect ration 16:10 (good for me), quality color reporduction at the cost of high input lag and ghosting, wide gamut that brings only problems since Windows don't support it, only high resolution and price ( I would be willing to pay for something decent )
2209WA was perfect since it offered the best of both realms - 8bit colors, low input lag of cca 10ms and well-tuned overdrive, low enough resolution for middle graphic cards, yet good readability of text and productivity apps.
I am doomed! My head hurts...
Once again I look at the damned U2311H... okay... I notice that when starting, my old 2209WA backlight is getting tired, it takes minutes before it comes to full brightness action, but then it SHINES! The U2311H,... okay, I could live with the colors... but ... left side - pinkish, right side muddy greenish... I want the head of those corner-cutters!!!
A couple small points you might consider-
1680x1050 and 1920x1200 are both native 16:10 monitor resolutions. So you're not going to have a different aspect ratio from your old 2209wa if you go 1920x1200, just a different pixel size/pitch. If you needed to, for legibility or video card reasons, you could just set the monitor in windows to 1680x1050 without any stretching.
My understanding is that Windows 7 does support wide gamut now. At least through (right click desktop) Screen Resolution -> advanced settings ->color management tab -> color management ->advanced you can change the color profile to a scRGB wide gamut profile.
Support for color depths of 30 and 48 bits is included, along with the wide color gamut scRGB (which for HDMI 1.3 can be converted and output as xvYCC). The video modes supported in Windows 7 are 16-bit sRGB, 24-bit sRGB, 30-bit sRGB, 30-bit with extended color gamut sRGB, and 48-bit scRGB.
So it might not be a showstopper. My impression is that since windows is the most commonly used platform, monitor makers aren't going to design them in a way that the most modern software can't handle properly. But since I don't have the sort of truly top tier level color accurate setup at home that you'd seem to prefer, I can't vouch for it 100%.
I don't know if you have a device like a Pantone Huey Pro calibrator, but such a device might interest you if you don't have one and really are going for dead on color accuracy. Especially if you did end up saving a bit through getting a different replacement via dell.
As for 6 bit + FRC vs 8 bit, I think that they do a good enough job for most people, especially those coming from TN's, but I don't think that there are any that truly hit every color spot on via FRC. You probably wouldn't notice it after a bit if you got readjusted to the new "standard." I know that some companies, like Samsung, get a bit tricky and do the signal processing at 9 bits to get more of the dark grey tones before the monitor outputs to the 6 bit + FRC. I'm sure most do their own tricks, but thats the one I see mentioned the most. The end result isn't quite as good though, which is why the more "premium" monitors are still 8 bit.
Anyways, good luck again, sounds like you have some options, and since a lot of these things are personal preference it will just depend on what you're exactly wanting. Still, thought I'd toss in the thoughts on the resolution/ gamut as it might widen your choices if either solves your issue with those specific points.
Thank you for your detailed analysis. First of all, even though all 16:10 have the same aspect ration, scaling to lower resolution does bring problems, since on the scaled image the boundaries between pixels fall into the pixels, so color interpolation must be used, and that results in blurry/less legible image. When I am forced to use lower res on my 2209WA, I always use Aspect Ratio Scaling from my Preferences, so in case of 4:3 image, I get black bars on sides, but the image is not stretched. So when I buy 1920x1200, I will probably want to use the native resolution.
The info about the wide gamut is good news - that would theoretically bring 2410 back into the game (if not for that input lag the monitor has).
As for the 6 bit+frc - I admit that the colors are not THAT bad, the image looks a bit plasticky, but what I mind the most is that it really FLICKERS the way CRT monitors did. I tried to use it for some time and compared to my old screen, it really tires my eyes.
Does anyone have direct experience with modern PVA monitors? How do they fare compared to IPS? Are they eligible for gaming?
I have had a Hanns G 28" for at least 4 years... and it is friggin' awesome.
Yeah, a couple of the specs may not read at top notch, but you cannot beat the performance for the price.
Check it out!
The first link is the exact monitor that I am using right now. (did I mention that I LOVE it)
http://www.amazon.com/Hanns-G-HG281DPB-Widescreen-LCD-Monitor/dp/B000TJV9KW/ref=sr_1_2?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1327526188&sr=1-2
next... here is something similar with built in speakers, if you need them.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254052
Yup, scaling does have issues, just most people never notice it at .27 mm pixel pitch. You must have excellent eyes, which is no bad thing at all. Might mean that a new video card is in your future - though a 560Ti is pretty good and should handle most anything at 1900x1200.
Since the 2410 seems to have about 30% average more input lag than the 2209wa (at least in the non gaming modes), it would probably be best to check it out in person at a store. Gaming modes, the two monitors are within 1 ms of one another, but then you hit the colors being slightly off/overshoot. You could try it on your 2209wa I suppose and see if the shifting from being in gaming mode was noticeable.
My understanding is that the 2408WFP mentioned earlier is actually a s-pva screen (as were the popular 2407wfp's), so there might be more input on that end if you're looking that direction. My general impression is that they have smaller viewing angles and a bit more lag in general, which is why dell went from spva to ips, but it will vary from monitor to monitor/ manufacturer to manufacturer.
Okay, so my negotiations with Dell ended in with "accept U2311H or die!". True, they also offered 2211 and 2212, I think, but those are the same quality, but smaller.
So I stand before a dilemma - retain my old 2209wa, even though it has the yellow line problem (and risk it will become permanent in time), or ask money back and try something else - but what? My latest candidate is Eizo 2335w, does anyone has a firsthand experience with it?
I have discovered a new branch of S-TN monitors from EIZO that claim good viewing angles and 10bit internal color depth (!), and 5ms GTG response time. They are rather pricey for TN, 22" EIZO S2202WHA-BK EcoView costs a but more than DELL 2311H. Did anyone see it in action?
IMO, 10 bit sounds good, but its tricky, since you need a specialized software application that generates output at that level (like Photoshop) then a video card that also is capable of sending that signal. According to NVIDIA, for true 10-bit per channel, you need a DisplayPort supported Quadro or Quadro FX graphics card.
I'm sure for most things it would down convert to 8 bit when transmitting, or for games will be 8 bit output at the software level. Which is fine, but not worth a premium over other 8 bit monitor options if that's the direction you're going. Never played first hand with EIZO monitors, so can't help there specifically.
Too bad on Dell support. I have a 2211, know that the screen uniformity is better than the 2311, and smaller pixel pitch, but otherwise its smaller, worse lag, and a bit cheaper bits so less color accurate. So I think its good you're not going that way. I guess you could try again, see if you can hit someone more helpful, but its always a longshot and might not be worth the time or angst.
I guess I will throw in too.
1. Samsung 2333HD- link and link
2. Samsung LX2370HD- link and link
3. Samsung PX2370- link and link
4. Samsung P2570HD- link and link
and helpful articles maybe link and link
Thank you, but I cannot find any comprehensive review on them that would clearly state what technology is used to manufacture them (TN?), and measurements of input lag, response time and color reporoduction. I cannot find them on TFT central. PX2370 is a TN monitor, that means I am not interested.
I went through the models Samsung offers, and some combinations are pretty strange, like 27 inch monitor with 1920x1080 res and a TN panel. Who would buy that?
DrJBHL - I seriously considered ordering from Amazon, but the supplier stated he won't ship electronics outside of the USA, so I am out of luck (I live in Czech, Europe).
I have finally decided to return my 2209WA (my warranty expires in March), because there is no saying when the problem becomes permanent. I should be able to get my money back, since 2209WA is sadly no longer available, and I won't accept the inferior 2311H Dell offers.
The problem remains - what to buy next? I have stumbled upon a brand new Fujitsu P23T-6P which should be a true 8 bit IPS monitor. They always had robust, solid hardware, but I did not find any comprehensive review regarding ghosting, input lag, color consistency, and such. Did anyone see it in action by chance?
So, my latest candidate is EIZO Foris FS2332. Pricey, as all Eizo monitors, but I hope it is worth it. The reviews are good, it's 8-bit.
Found a pretty good review for the Fujitsu, if you're still looking at it: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2011/review-fujitsu-p23t-6-ips.html
I actually hadn't been using that site before, but it seems to have pretty thorough reviews. They also have a review for the FS2332, and several others that looked like they might be somewhat interesting to you. Just a heads up if you hadn't seen the site before.
Yeah, I read that review on prad.de, it was just about the only I could find. I suspect it's because the company is still Fujitsu-Siemens, so they will probably push their product on German market. I had FS Pocket Loox c550 (still have, but no longer use it), it was a nice piece of HW with beautiful display and good performance.
Well, I will probably go with the Eizo, I suppose. Let's hope their reputation means they did not take the path of "budgetization" as Dell and other did.
BTW I have read several reports from users that are bothered by temporal dithering (FRC), they report headaches, eye irritation. I remember how the flickering low refresh rate of CRT used to hurt my eyes, with LCD, I thought that is gone, but no, they bring it back as a "feature".
Just a note to difference between IPS and TN - Dell 2209wa - having it returned for warranty, I had to fall back to my old Samsung 710T 17'' TN LCD I bought in 2004. The monitor has horrible backlight bleeding on the side, and the colors are not good (spatial dithering, apparently), but I tried to play my favorite Mount and Blade - With Fire and Sword, and I was amazed - suddenly, I was able to compete in twitchy swordfights with the best players on the server. The reaction times improved dramatically compared to using 2209WA, It felt like I have more time for everything (35ms network lag to the server as usual).
I noticed a performance drop in my play some time ago, and I was explaining it with age and fatigue, but maybe the equipment is much more important than it seems?
So, to continue my story - after a month of haggling with the vendor I purchased the 2209WA from, I managed to get my refund. I purchased the Eizo Foris 2332BK, and hearing so much praise about Eizo, I must say I am disappointed a bit.
Good:
Not so good:
Dealbreaker:
So I don't know what to do. Try some VA monitors, sacrificing response time? S-IPS with true 8bit?
Hi Kamamura_CZ,
Where are you standing with this story now?
I'm asking because i'm in exactly the same shoes now.
My 2209wa also started producing the temporarily disfuncional blue subpixel lines symptom and i have to change for something but i loved this one so much it's a hard move.
I'm now tending towards the Asus PA246Q. A bit more expensive than the 2209wa was but also 24" and factory calibrated. Otherwise the same LG IPS panel that the Dell U2410 has.
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