Randomness...
When I first heard there was coming a "sequel" to the best fantasy 4X game ever (Master of Magic) I was in extacy, and uponstarting to play it really felt like this game - contrary to so many other MoM wannabees - could really be the stuff I've searching for somany years: A ‘modern’ sandbox fantasy 4X game with great replayability.
However, as the game progressed, I slowly realised that though the foundation was solid and somewhat similar to my best wishes, the game was sorely lacking in the departments of fantasy, imagination and above all variation. It was simply a bit dull. Not terribly bad, mind you, butI got the feeling that it could be so much more, that it’s potential was so much bigger.
It had city placement on a map - but it didnt matter much where you placed it. Where are the terrain bonuses, the incentive to build yourcity close to rivers and forests and agrable land, the search for the 'perfect' spot to found your city. There are resources to be found,granted, but they are few and far between. It doesn’t have to be extremely detailed with a resource for every kind of land, just somesimple bonuses or drawbacks.
It had pickable buildings and progression - but only a few buildings and no incentive to otherwise than just build a lot of the same one. Iwant more kinds of buildings and I dont want to build x number of the same – upgrades can handle that just fine. Where is the moat filledwith demonic energies or fire (or even water), where are the mage towers (other than a unique building that gives only a couple ofextra, relatively useless arcane research points. Unique is nice, but give it some power!), where are the churches, the kennels and thecastles.
It had designable troops - but all troops was about the same and had no variation; nothing really changed except attack strength and defense. I want different abilities and bonuses, like troops with shields being able to fortify themselves or spearmen having a first strikeoption (instead of every troop having first strike as of now, which unbalances things greatly). I want crossbow men, spear-throwers,forces with special movement rules, rangers, warlocks and sorcerers, berserkers, halberdiers, priests, paladins, war-machines, flyingmounts for heroes, flying troops, war galleys, sea monsters, spider riders, war dogs, lizard riders and battle-wagons: they dont have to be avaible for every race or player ability, but they should be there.
It had Heroes - but though certainly able to be powerful (actually able to kill any number of ordinary troops without risk of being hurt,unfortunately) they were all basically the same except for a very minor starting stat. It was not “Baltazar the Baleful” with theability to cast curses with twice the power and a black demonic horse with added movement, carrying the Scepter of Doom, the Cloak-Tabardof Ages and the Vampire Crown of Thelzus. It was not “Knight Aspur, the Thunder of Moara” either, or his two-handed sword Wraithbaneand his ability to charge and soak extra damage. Most of the time it was XXX, with +1 tech point and carrying a broadsword, shield andheavy plate (despite what class the hero would aspire to, since heavier armor always is better and there’s only broadsword or atwohanded weapon to pick, really). All heros advances the same way too, there’s no point really in adding points to stats other thanstrength, constitution or (for spell casters) intelligence and they don’t gain anything else, not even related to their initial ability.
It had player abilities that could be different for each game – but only a handful and most of them without lasting value (indeed, someof them without initial value as well). Make those abilities count! Make them powerful in various ways – though not TOO powerful ofcourse – and some of them able to affect the game in situations other than a mere bonus to a resource, like for an example a pickthat would decrease spell research time, increase mana gained from only shards of a selected element, finding better artifacts ortraining troops easier.
It had a choice of races - but only two and they were just about the same: more like a good and evil version of humans. Where are thecreatures that make medieval into fantasy? The dwarves, gnomes, gnolls, trolls, goblins, orcs, halflings, elves and half-animals likecentaurs, minotaurs, lizardmen, catmen or draconites. Where are the race-specific abilities, classes and buildings, the advantages andthe drawbacks that adds diversity to a game? Why arent there 8 races,or 12, or even more.
It had a world-building section with variables – but too few, and too simple. Why not a lever for adjusting magic power, terrain bonuses,or birth rates? Increasing the number of special sites, and equipping them with lost lore (spells, even new aspects like an element, holymagic or nature magic. Why not tech, or a lair which turn the dungeon into a recruitment place after you have defeated it’s guardians).Why not a ‘library’ of artifacts and/or heroes, where players could put their own creations into the database? Heroes withabilities outside a mere %-bonus, artifacts that had spells incorporated or special attacks instead of just a higherattack/defense. A library where you set how many of the spells that you should be able to research for each game, or trade – alwayshaving the possibility to get all spells would not be as interesting.
It had a technology tree (which is an improvement to traditional fantasy actually and I cherish it) but though the system is lovely I cantreally see why magic has a place within it. Especially since there is an arcane research, which is currently only used to get the specificspells that the tech unlocks. I’d say, split the magic parts into an arcane tech tree instead, and use the opportunity to multiply itsince it needs it sorely. Make some graded switch to manipulate how much research that goes into “tech” magic and what goes intospells, if needed: maybe even additional mana. Also, adventuring tech, why base this on studies instead of the experience of theheroes? It’s heroes who usually discover the long-lost temple of Huge Amounts of Treasures anyway.
And finally, it had Magic… For being named “war of magic” there is very little magic in the game at all. Its ‘expensive’, rarely usedexcept for a couple of spells and over all it’s better to just skip it totally and just go researching war instead. There is a smallnumber of spells – many of which are very unbalanced in various ways – but very few worth casting, not to mention keeping. Add tothat, the magic is rare amongst troops (only heroes) and even amongst players for Mana is very hard to come by and easily spent. Spellswith upkeep are usually limited to a selected few worth keeping, and those being massed on the currently active hero. Some spells requireelemental shards, but they are very rare – which also adds to the severe lack of mana.
Double the number of spells; triple them or quadruple them. Make them different from each other, with various strengths and weaknesses, and stronger the more advanced and hard-researched they are. Balance them. A spell with level 1 (or 2) shouldn’t be able to splitcontinents into half and seal of opponents easily, nor should they be able to make a hero jump across the world so much that he doesn’tneed movement points. Make them harder to come by, more expensive or limit their powers somewhat. On the other hand, a spell with level 3och 4 shouldn’t be worthless either. Why only 5 levels, by the way? More levels means easier balancing. I want more spells for non-damagepurposes; not only combatspells that weakens or enhances the target(s) in some way but also way more summonings,artefact-construction, unit transformation (like to undead beings, or werewolves), blessings and curses and enchantments able to affectcities (noticeably), shaping of minor non-city buildings, terrain, environment and that spans the whole world, like for an example aspell that weakens a certain element or faction. Upkeep is not instant-loss if only mana was more plentiful.
Make hero wizards carry their own mana, with no access to the pool of the player; not only would it restrain their eventual overpowerment inbattle, it would also grant greater diversity amongst the heroes, especially with abilities and bonuses regarding mana. It would alsomake the tax of the puny manasources easier. Make some units able to cast one spell, or perhaps two, once per battle or something likethat; no overkill, just some added flavour. And increase the mana avaibility even more.
In short, make the game more variable, more complex, more fantasylike. It makes the game both greater and more replayable. I realise ofcourse that your resources aren't unlimited, but I suspect that some changes (the non-graphic ones) aren’t really that hard toaccomplish, and they really count.
That being said, I still think you have a solid foundation there to build a game-series that will rock the world. I like your map and the wayit works, the history of the world and the game-machine – especially the legacy and the relations meny. I hope that you willcontinue to improve.
With best regards,
~M
I too have been searching for the spiritual successor to Master of Magic. Elemental has significant potential. I have been pretty happy with the purchase, and with the up coming 1.3v release--I think I will be even more happy. I don't participate in the betas, so I am still playing 1.2v. I am also really looking forward to Fallen Enchantress. As to your post.
CITY PLACEMENT--I do think being able to select your first city location does give Elemental a leg up in this department. There are times with the complete randomness of MoM that could just screw you. However, sometimes that was fun to play as well. Being able to control how the city grows is also a plus. I would like to see more perks for placing in certain areas, but even in Elemental, the best cities are located near gold deposits, shards, etc.
PICKABLE BUILDINGS--for the simplicity of city building in MoM, it was fun. MoM did not have the variety that you are speaking of, but I would like to see more buildings in Elemental, and perhaps some race specific buildings.
DESIGNABLE TROOPS--MoM had no designable troops. It was a progression, but everything was standardized. End the end though, you just got what you got. However, again, I would like to see some race specific units, weapons, and armor.
HEROES--You have heroes in Elemental, but I would like some depth added in this department. I want to forge weapons for a hero, possibly choose some skills. I want them to progress, and have a vested interest in them. One of the things with MoM, when you lost a hero it sucked. It actually depressed me a little. There are so many heroes in Elemental, they lose their uniqueness and value. The dynasty aspect of Elemental, at least helped with this since they were your kids, but that is being eliminated in Fallen Enchantress. Very Sad--keep the marriage and the kids.
DIFFERENT PLAYER ABILITIES--The Sovereigns can be customized, so this is pretty much the same. They have different abilities and professions. I would like to see more risk reward with the choices, but there are lots of combinations you can choose from.
RACES--There are 10 different choices in Elemental. Not necessarily races, but different factions. I would like to see some "faction" specific buildings, armor, and weapons. I really enjoy some of the Global advancements (1 per game) that are available in Elemental and I do think that is a great touch. I love the Mint of Ruvenna.
TECHNOLOGY--I like the tech tree in Elemental. I am not sure what you are referring to as a tech tree in MoM. MoM had progressions through troops, magic, and buildings, but there was not a tech tree.
MAGIC—Both have magic. MoM had global effecting magic and unit effecting magic. Battle spells and buffs. I would definitely like to see Elemental progress in the magic department. There are a number of spells that I never use, or use only to see what they do.
Overall I think Elemental is on track. I am anxious to see 1.3v and Enchantress. Hopefully with all the work Stardock has done and is doing these games will be what us old timers having waiting for for so long.
Subscribing.
This should generate some interesting discussion.
"I realise of course that your resources aren't limited" .. heehee
This thread is essentially just saying "more of everything". Who could disagree. But as we know, the resources indeed are limited. Every resource is being used, and the result has as much substance as is possible. That's what I believe. And is all I can and want to ask from SD.
Technically sound (ie: stable, no memory issues), wish list "more of everything" implemented, and available within the next 4 years.
Pick two.
Unfortunately when building anything on a limited budget, you need to focus on what you can actually do with the resources at hand. That's one of the reasons behind FE cutting a lot of stuff, the aim is to do fewer things but do those things better.
Tridus, If I had to pick two from your list it would be the first two. I waited twenty years already, I can wait a little while longer.
Just from what they said FE sounds great. I just wish they wouldn't cut the marriage and children from the game. I think that adds more depth to the character you are playing.
KingHobbit, I may have confused matters a bit, shoveling my wishes and the actual MoM together like that. MoM didnt have a tech tree and I do like that Elemental has. MoM didnt have designable troops either and again I do like that.
To all of you, my point overall is simply that - though not simple - building a larger variety and randomness in the game would help to counter what I consider its greatest weakness: the lack of interest in playing more than 2-3 games. Today ( I have only version 1.12 but will get the next ones) each game will be much the same as the previous. There are distinctions, yes, but they are simply too weak to affect much. There's not much color, and I want a rainbow.
Elemental has the potential to be really, really good, and I'd hate for it to fall short of that.
Of course, this is just my humble opinions, not any law written in stone.
The first two choices were in Beta 1, but Stardock made a conscious decision to move away from them. They made a bunch of unusual and conscious decisions to ask us our opinion, get longed detailed feedback and see what people wanted. Then go off on a different tangent entirely. Just like they launched prematurely before people who were participating in beta thought it was ready.
See early discussions on the game's economy and city development if you have any doubt. It looks like FE is also a conscious decision to reverse some of those decisions they made earlier.
Still I think the most important thing they need to fix was their decision to not pay proper attention to the feedback of beta testers. I understand they were overwhelmed, I understand there was a done of feedback from many websites coming from all angles. The most important feedback should have come from those who had already pre-ordered the game and were beta-testing it. This was their customer base and they should have been on top of listening to what they really wanted and were telling them and then the disastrous launch should not have happened. More than anything I hope for future games this is properly fixed.
In comparison the Twilight of the Arnor beta I participated in was a much, much smaller community and it wasn't difficult for the developers to listen to them. It wasn't a bad decision for them to focus on game development and toon us out, they just needed to make it someone's job to still listen to the feedback from beta testers which wasn't in the form of a bug report (and too many of those seem to have gotten missed as well).
Rish and others - I fear some of you are taking the wrong lessons from War of Magic.
With Twilight of the Arnor, we knew (and so did the players to a large extent) what could and couldn't be done with the engine.
With War of Magic, we didn't. 90% of the time we agreed with the beta testers. But also a great deal of the time what we wanted to do couldn't be done with the engine.
Now, that in itself wouldn't have been enough to wreck the launch of WOM. But combine the above with the effort (100+ hour weeks for 6 months) to try to get the engine and the systems capable of doing what we wanted and suddenly you had all kinds of poor judgment coming into play.
For example, we all wanted to have huge, massive armies. But we couldn't do it with the performance we wanted. We wanted to have a much deeper economic system but we couldn't do it and keep the time between turns reasonable. We wanted to have much better multiplayer but the event system couldn't handle the kinds of things needed.
Stardock had never made a land-based game before. The closest thing we've done was publish Demigod and the Demgiod maps are actually big 3D models, they're not really "maps". So a lot of our assumptions on what was involved in making a land based 3D engine were simply wrong.
With Fallen Enchantress, we know from the start what things the engine can do. We also know what kinds of things we can safely add without killing scope.
That's why the Elemental world has split off in two directions. The first is with WOM which has been steadily upgraded and then Fallen Enchantress which is a radical improvement (greater than than GalCiv 1 to GalCiv 2).
Really because GAL2 was light years ahead of GAL1.. Dammit Frogboy now I really want FE.....How long do we have to wait:)
The beta should be out in about a month.
I shouldn't say this (not publicly anyway) but FE is a little discouraging to me as I don't think anyone is going to want to play WOM after FE is available. I was hoping that FE and WOM would just be different but FE is just better.
One of the consequences of the Gamestop acqusition of Impulse is that Stardock Entertainment hired up. The team on FE is significantly larger than the team that made WOM. The WOM updates have been done via maint. updates while everyone else is on FE and the differences are pretty significant.
Sounds great. Can't wait for the beta.
In life, making mistakes isn't important. What you do after that is important.
Stardock has shown integrity in owning up to what happened and is striving to exceed expectations this time around.
This thread makes me happy.
Reading this, while drinking a beer. Now i can clean my keyboard.
Don´t know what to say. *hugs frogboy* Maybe one thing.... I really appreciate your constant work on WoM. Saddly i think you are right, but at the end its not about WoM, its about stardock (the game section) and reputation, isn´t it?! And for this, you did a great job.
(as always. excuse my bad english)
thats pretty big news there. i dont think anyone was expecting a beta already. anycase tho i think in the long run making a solid game that hopefully can reach pc classic status will be good for stardock. im sure if FE launches with alot of momentum and glowing reviews there are a good amount of poeple out there that didnt get WOM that will purchase FE. and with a continual strive to improve the game with content/player feedback it will definitely be good PR in the long run for stardock. i myself a long time pc gamer never had any of stardock games till i purchased WOM. granted i was disappointed in WOM but i gotta tell ya that i come to the elemental forums on a daily basis mon-friday to check on news and read posts. i can see that that the stardock devs are working hard and pouring alot of love into it and i have high hopes for FE and future games from you all. eventhough WOM bombed i can clearly see you guys got ur Sh*t together for FE and im sure for future titles. anycase im definitely going to continue with SD games.
keep up the hard work and your efforts will be REWARDED and RECOGNIZED by the whole gaming community.
Less than a month! That's fantastic. Where do we sign up?
you have enabled show beta in impulse right?
and I am also waiting for the beta.
harpo
Frogboy, there is definitely room for both games, though it would seem like WoM would do well to simply take the stance that the game really isn't about the Sovereign, but about the progression of a group of people. For instance, while FE seems to be about taming a raw and brutal world as the sovereign, there is definitely a group of players ( myself included ) who would rather see the expansion of the cities. I would like to see improvements which could be built outside of a city, such as forts, small communal farms, etc.
I agree with Kenata. I'm sad if WoM ends up abandoned and we will never have a grander scale galciv like Elemental game to pair up with the more character based FE.
There's still the "third game". They could add some of this stuff back into that one since like FE it'll have a full dev team and dev cycle, rather then a couple of people trying to patch stuff in.
We are excited Frog.
Mith--no worries.
The concept of War of Magic is incredible. Hopefully War of Magic 1.3v will be an improvement. There is also room for an expansion or two to keep everyone playing. Depending of the direction SD and FE end up going.
To me it seems the problem with Elemental from the start was a lack of proper planned out game design.Through all the patches and everything the past months, things have changed so much and in such different directions, it is clear that it wasnt thought out from the beginning. I don't know if it is a matter of development time or not, perhaps developing the engine took too much time or focus away from the gameplay concepts.
I just feel that Elemental is insecure, I don't know what it is anymore or what it will be in the next patch or what it will be in FE.Games like Galciv 2 had lots of massive changes too, but it was always Galciv, it always had a specific identity and gameplay plan.Even after the individual tech trees, it still felt like the game had the same cohesive vision from start to finish.
With Elemental I just don't know anymore. Not that it's not great or wont be as great as Galciv 2, but I simply can't feel sure about what it will be in 6 months. Improvements are never unwanted of course, for any game. But it's a bit like putting a V12 engine in a Nissan Micra. Who's gonna know from the outside? It feels like Elemental turned into a game where you need to read 100 patchnotes every release to just be able to play it, since so much changes.
In most other games (good games, lets not worry about the bad), while patches may add great new features, they still retain the main vision and core gameplay plan of the game. Elemental right now feels like it is on shaky grounds. It is improving all the time, no question.
Maybe after FE comes out the team can push WOM over the proverbial rise to greatness. I don't think it is really that far away.
I like that I no longer have to imbue a hero in order for them to use their special ability. However, I don't like how there are basically no heroes wandering around any more. Taking away Janusk was fine, but everyone? I used to vigorously pursue heroes but now there are fewer people out there.
Anyway, the game is good, not great, but it has huge potential.
id rather the heros be hiding in some spot or emprisoned in a wildland. quite frankly from the start of ewom it rather bugged me that not only was the land hugely barren but u had dozens of heros walking about. you could make an army of them so much faster than buildign ur own it was retarded
I never really got why you guys wanted to roll your own engine. To me, it seems like a dev would be better off leasing one from a company that had spent years and years on engine making, and focused on it to the exclusion of pretty much everything else. A battle hardened mercenary of an engine, so to speak. Those guys deal with the nasty messy plumbing, and then the devs deal with the fun stuff on the outside; the buttons, flair and doodads that make the actual game.
But I guess you did what you did, so there's probably a reason.
Any chance you'll toss the whole thing out there as an open source sort of thing? Betcha it'd get adopted like a mofo, and even better would probably earn you some moneylove if you asked folks to put down some dough for commercial use. Plus you'd get free support from folks who think playing around with the guts of an OSP is fun, and build up a base of potential employees who already know your engine.
I agree. I would just research that spell that turns mana into gold, that use that gold to get heroes and buy equipment for them and go raze my enemy cities. Made for boring games.
I will still pall wom frogboy after all I payed forty dollers for it and it has and will not go to waste.
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