To further the RPGness of the game I would suggest adding a character sheet for your heroes (don't know if something like this is already done). Something that shows slots for items that your hero has found/bought/made(think HoMM 3 character/inventory screen)(could crafting or some similar system be a consideration?) Maybe link quests/random dungeons with artifacts that have been lost since before the cataclysm (don't know if FE will continue with that story line).
Also, and to borrow from yet another game, I liked the way Warhammer 40k games melded the RPGness into an RTS game. If it can be done well there, then it should most definitely be easy to see it fitting into this 4x TBS game.
My final thought, and this one is a bit out there. It always bothered me in the 4x genre that there is a certain point within a given game that you just know the game is over and you've won. I really think it would be great to have something to focus on beyond the clean up phase. I always felt that I've created this great empire that has allowed me to defeat my enemies and have all of its functions working seamlessly and have put so much time and effort in creating this final product that it is a bit disheartening to realize that probably 70-75% of the way through its creation the game was in hand. I want to be able to use this empire and all it's abilities towards another goal thats beyond just controlling the current map your playing on.
What if, and this may be a bit redundant but hopefully will help see where I'm trying to go with this, once you've cleared your map of all enemies and you've "won" that map/game, the map then expands outward again to show other continents of the world your on (basically starting the entire 4x experience over with the exception that you now have a fully functional empire backing you up, one that you've created). Those continents would also hold other empires that are either still battling their local enemies or who have also conquered their immediate lands thus posing as either a great threat or great ally in a continued struggle.
This kinda takes it further then just a 4x game but would really open the door for some great gaming and memorable moments or events, not to mention a truly massive world to explore/conquer (would also make Navy's and such that much more important as that would be the only way to migrate/settle the other continents. Can't you see massive fleets running ashore on a new undiscoved land?). I can foresee settling the entirety of your immediate land (or even forming alliances/capitulations with your immediate enemies) At some point you would reach a cap on technology research and the game would become static from that standpoint, you've researched the best techs, now you get to really use them to their full potential instead of trivializing them as most 4x games seem to do. Being that this game is in a fantasy setting and already has an RPG aspect built into it, I would think that further expanding the world would only lend to even more memorable game play.
Thoughts?
i'm not sure how feasible the new continents thing is, but i'd appreciate a more dedicated character sheet. this whole aspect on the game is getting overhauled (inluding perks), so i imagine the interface will be overhauled too.
The last thing Elemental needs is more time spent on the RPG aspects. They need to focus more on Empire building and diplomacy. If one wants to play and RPG, then play an RPG.
Yes the continents is a stretch but the point I'm trying to make is this:
All 4x games generally end before they end if that makes sense. I liken this to building say, a starship. You put a ton of time and effort in creating it and making it function how you want it to, but before you finish it and would want to take it out for a spin or do something more valuable with it you can't, cause there is nothing left to use it for. Bad analogy I know and I wouldn't suggest something like that in the short term for this game, however if a future expansion could add this element in or something that we could use our established empire for beyond the whole conquer/destroy everything scenario I believe this would add so much more value to any game you sit down and play.
Before something like this can be implemented however, the basics need to be fleshed out and the current version of the game needs to be polished and functioning as intended. I'd like to stress the fact that I'm not calling for what I described to be put into the game. Simply something else to do beyond the "end" of the game.
It does. It's a well known phenomenon in a franchise like Civ where a lot of times you've won 30 turns before you get the "you win" screen. Particularly in war because of the way the game handles war, once you start winning you get stronger and stronger and it gets harder to stop you.
For the expanding worlds issue, play on a bigger map! Another solution is to implement Victory Points like in Company of Heroes. I tell ya, Victory Points are one of the best things to happen to the RTS genre ever! Now I'm just waiting for the TBS genre to get them as well.
It's because there is no such thing as a 'turning point' in most games. Your only real opponents are the AI, who are mostly inadequate to defeat a human player. There needs to be more, there needs to be something unexpected, something perhaps triggered by your empire's growing power, because after a point... there is nothing to do but mop up, and that is just boring. I'm not saying you should arbitrarily give bonuses to losing empires just because there is one big one, I am saying that since that person has such a large empire he has spent so much time and effort into creating, he should be given an equal amount of challenges and responsibility to keep it up and see it through.
I ran into this while playing Bandit Kings of Ancient China, only I thought I had a pleasant surprise when the 'mongol' hordes came down well into the game, but instead of fighting them you simply lost, if one could have something like this happen but be able to fight them then it would be a real treat.
I know the feeling. You spend the whole game developing until you can afford to build the solid, capable army you always wanted, and once you have it you realize it completely exceed requirements. I'd say there are two things that elemental can do.
1 - The World. The World can react in a dynamic fashion to insert extra challenges when a faction is overshadowing the others, effectively acting as a built in DM. More dragon attacks etc.
2 - The shape of factions. Currently, population grows at the same rate in all settlements (more or less). There needs to be a more global, or pan-faction growth system, that encourages the player to only develop a few settlements and leave the rest as isolated farming / mining villages (the current system doesn't do this, because you simply get a penalty for the number of settlements, not their size). 10 people in a developed city should earn more money than 10 in a village. If these ind of dynamics exist, we will get factions that are shaped more like city states. Since a faction's capital is usually the last to fall, this will mean factions remain competetive until their very last battle, drastically reducing the "blob effect."
I've always enjoyed games that are continuous and the best example I can give is in the warhammer 40k rts games. In Dawn of War (for those that don't know) there was a campaign option where you battle the other races over a solar system. There were bonuses and extra units you gained with each territory you controlled. The whole point is you got to play in battles that ranged from short to long and got to see and use the entire spectrum of units throughout. I know it's a different game all together, but I thought that was really cool and also that they could have done more with it but meh. Personally I don't mind very long or very large games.
I prefer them in fact. I always play on the largest map size with all but 2 of the races. At it's core this is a single player game, at least for me it will be as I probably won't try online. Why not spend lots of time on one game. If your having fun then the amount of time put in shouldn't really matter. TBS games lend themselves to a longer game by their nature. You can take your time between turns, save your progress whenever. Start a game and finish it in a few weeks but during those few weeks you'd probably be having a blast if the game is good enough.
In fheroes2, there are plans to provide access to really huge maps. Although custom-made maps would take a long time to make, a good one could last ages. It would be cool to make really big maps a single player could play without the steamroller effect. And because the graphics aren't that demanding (though they still look quite colourful) it wouldn't use much memory. A comprehensive event system, if implemented (which I anticipate will be implemented in fheroes2 at some stage), could allow games to really challenge you even with a powerful army. Hopefully FE will allow a comprehensive event system at some stage.
Best regards,Steven.
In Genghis Khan on my SNES. You could start by playing in Mongolia, and once you united it, you would play as your united Mongolia in the Wide world that stretched from England to Japan. It was an awesome game mechanic.
What the game really needs is to do what it does WELL. Even if it offers less than WoM, WoM did almost everything half-ass. So many details of the game where made barely playable with little interest in making any of it actually good. Armor, Weapons, Tactical Battles, Minor factions, magic, random name generator, faction abilities, water and naval units just so many things were really done shoddily. I'm thinking that Derek, Jon, and Toby will do a better job with FE.
i remember genghis khan clan of the grey wolf. i believe thats the game you talking about xia. i recall it even had a hot seat where u could select up to 8 players i think to play on the global map.
What about all other factions turning against you if you reach a certain power ranking?
Not only that, but have them create allied armies that are unified under one AI to move against you.
Each faction would contribute some units to the allied force.
I would like the player to be able to participate in this too.
Have the AI vote on who the army commander would be based, maybe, on diplomacy points (a la Master of Orion).
Or have the faction that contributes the most units take control.
OP has a point, game gets boring after a certain point once the outcome becomes clear. One may attempt to find a solution with some creativity and imagination, a couple of ideas:
Open objective: Final battle
- A final battle with the Enchantress is required to win, the battle is accessible anytime but the power of the Enchantress is very high early game and continues to increase as time goes, it also scales with the number of remaining AI players or artificats/Gaurdians/Dragons... etc, a sort of doom's day countdown but with no timer, you can always challenge her if you think you are strong enough.
Scenario: The World unites
- Human player alongside AI players must survive a powerful 3rd faction preferably a unique unplayable race [Undead/Zombies] with great advantages, 3rd faction goes full offense after random XXX turns, Human player needs to balance between grabbing the limited resources for himself and at the same time not over-weaken other AI players, as each defeated AI player will considerably scale up the power of the Zom.. 3rd faction
Scenario: God's challenge
- The king/Demon lord/Dragon queen/God/Satan... announced a tournament between all factions. Human player alongside other AI players must explore the world seeking to enlist the aid of Heroes, dragons, witches, demons, golems...etc by conquering dungeons, solving puzzles, raiding cities, doing quests. Player will still need to build a city and an army for aid, as well as try to hinder/Kill allies of other AI players.
After a random [Unknown] number of turns, everyone is called and you are required to pick a number of allies to join you in the battle for survival, player will be able to see AI vs AI tactical battles of other players as well as his own. An interesting twist would be that the player cant control his units in the tournament, so recruiting smarter units maybe as important as adding yet another huge damage dealer.
Scenario: Odin's call
You are required to descend to earth and build the strongest army possible, after XXX turns you (and your army) are transferred to heaven (just another map) to fight alongside Odin's army against a powerful army. In the new map you can no longer build new cities/units and must utilize the army you built/Allies recruited to win.
Well, that's enough ideas for now, perhaps modding can remedy the problem.
Since modders don't have access to a scripting engine and thus can't really alter how the game plays, I don't see how modders can change this stuff.
I love the ideas and I'm glad I'm not alone in my feeling about the end of most 4x games. After all the basics get hammered out and the game is stable and working as intended, I believe adding a grand goal at the end of the game other then defeating the AI/players would add enough to separate this game from the rest of the 4x games. In the Civ franchises you really can't do much beyond research all available techs and going to war/diplomatically winning the game. This is because Civ is based off our actual reality. Elemental is not, and with the RPG element the door is open to go almost anywhere with this and frankly I'm surprised a company hasn't caught on to this in the 4x genre yet.
I love when there are games within games and love even more the other games that are within the other games... that probably doesn't make sense but I'm at work and limited in how in depth and I can think about my posts.
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