If Stardock builds an RPG; and from posts by FrogBoy its likely that this is being considered, I would like to see it feature;
a. Baldar's Gate like story
b. Turn based tactical combat
"For those who haven't played it, in TOEE during the combat phase movement control was a simple Me Go, You Go system with control passing back and forth based between the characters and monsters based on initiative. Combat in TOEE was really tactical with your decisions as to how to manuever and use each of your your party's characters abilities made for really enjoyable combat.""the list of combat options is impressive. Do you fight defensively or charge into the fray for extra damage? Cast a spell or ready a counter spell? Move, run, trip an opponent, slice them open while they lie unconsious. The list goes on and the higher up the level ladder you climb the more feats and spells that become available to your characters"
c. Quests with multiple solutions
Example 1: Baron X is recruiting an army and wants the PCs to acquire 100 swords. The PCs may;
d. Time based Quests
Example 2: The PC learns that a band of Orcs will attack a village in 10 days. They have 10 days to return to the village.
Example 3: The PCs receive an invitation to the King's ball being held in 3 days.
e. PC's actions affect their reputation and thus their relations with NPCS. Let the PCs pay a price if they decide to follow the path of evil.
(NPC AI will not attempt to arrest a party of five Level 9 Evil PCs in full health, but let them enter the village severely injured with low hit points and the NPC AI may decide to arrest them.)
f. NPCs respond to Player Actions
Example 7: If PCs start killing locals the lord hires NPC bounty hunters to hunt down the evil PCs and the local guard is watching for them.
Example 8: If PCs attack the local temple, the local priest receives extra guards from the high priest in another city.
Example 9: In the CO8 TOEE (Temple of Elemental Evil) Reactive Temple mod the evil Air, Water, and Fire Temples reposition their troops and allies defensively in a centralized location within their respective temple areas if they are threatened. If you enter a temple and leave before finishing the job the surviving creatures will prepare a warm welcome for your return.
I like everything you have stated, except "b". Simply because I am not familiar with that game. I know of it, but never played it. Timed quest, Fallout was good about that. Wait too long, and you either fail or make it real difficult to succeed. Actually, ME2 had that feature on the main quest.
I like the reputation? Ever accidently kill a kid in Fallout? Man, that really stuck with you.
Agreed, reputation properly implemented really impact gameplay and heighten your involvement in the game.
The mistake that some games make is having an 1) overall reputation rating, instead of one that varies among the different fractions, races and cities and restricting the effects of reputation to 2) a few conversation changes or quests.
Giving it more of an impact; not only on conversations but also on how NPCs interact with the PC (higher or lower prices, willingness to talk to the PC, diplomacy +/-, free room & healing for those of a very high reputation or being run out of town for those with a very low reputation) can help to immerse the PC in the game with a minimum of custom scripting.
Some games regard all player actions as affecting a PC's reputation; even actions, that occur which NPCs can't know about.
Example: A PC party slays all members of an elven party in a dungeon. The effect on their reputation among elves should be zero, unless one of the elves runs away to safety, an elf survives the battle or the PCs are seen using personal items looted from the elves (or they sell it to other elves or to a merchant, not a fence). Likewise, if the PC slays an NPC elven party in a town this action should affect their reputation among elves as the action is public knowledge, even if all the elves are slain.
Time Based Quest Example:
My party of fearless adventurers captured documents that reveal the plans of the Evil High Priesrt Visigoth to assault the keep of the Silver Order of Demon Hunters on in 10 days. The documents also show that an officer of the order; Abraxus, of the order is actually a spy for the Evil Priest.
Path 1: We rush back to the Keep of the Silver Order of Demon Hunters where where we unmask the traitor and warn the High Lord of the Silver Order about the attack, Patiently we wait at the keep for the attack, and when the attack comes our party of adventurers aids the defenders and we defeat the attacking hordes. The High Lord rewards our party and offers us a quest to find and slay the Evil Priest Visigoth. (Note: Unmasking the traitor: +10 bonus to opposed diplomacy check if we have the captured documents, -10 penalty if we make the charge against a member of the order without evidence)
Path 2: After learning this information we complete several quests before venturing to the Keep of the Silver Order of Demon Hunters. Here we find the keep is a base for the Evil Priest Visigoth and his followers.
Path 3: We travel about the lands not visiting the keep, until we hear rumors of the fall of the Keep of the Silver Order. They say that the keep fell when a traitor among the keep's knights opened the main gate to allow the attackers in. The King is looking for adventurers to investigate these rumors.
Combat does not have to be turn based but just a good tactical combat with different options (better then DAO1&2 please).
Completely avoid level scaling, and having combat be about enemies just having more and more HP (again like DAO had).
Having ToEE combat will not work as D&D license is in another company hands. But it is not that hard to do a good tactical combat, action point/percentage system can always work well, even if it is not turn based (unless is it made for stupid people like in Fallout3).
1. ToEE combat style could be used as the Pathfinder system is open source, though one should talk to the owners of this open source system to confirm that it applies to software based game. That said, SD could design their own tactical combat system. What I really want is for it to be a me-go-you-go system that alternates based on initiative + random factor. Why? I like planning my moves, aka Chess for I find it to be more fun.
2. I wrote a NWN campaign where the protagonists increased in level as the PCs completed quests for them. Example: Evil Pirate hires the PCs to retrieve a magical trident from an Wizard's tower. If the PCs completed the quest and gave the trident to the Pirate captain gained a level (and he also had the magical trident to use). Complete 4 quests for the Pirate Captain and he goes from a level 11 to Level 15 equipped with the magical items that you acquired for him.
3. I also added random factor to so that in each game the enemy you faced would not be predicatable.
Example: Game 1: Var 01 to 50 -Pirate Captain's has a ring of Fireballs, Game 2: Var 51to100 - Pirate Captain has a ring of spell turning. Thus your opponent NPC changes from one game to another based on a random variable.
Likewise for NPC2: Var01to50 - NPC is Good, Var51to100 NPC is evil. Here you cannot assume that a PC that was evil in a prior game is evil in your new game. It really made for an interesting experience; however, it does require more work to effect this (i.e. more conversations, etc.)
Example: You meet a young lady pleading for help for her distant village in front of the Inn, there is a 50% that she is truely in need of assistance and her quest is true and a 50% that she is really an accomplished thief that will pilfer your most valuable item and run off with it.
Example: In game 1 the Lord is honest above approach and in game 2 the Lord is greedy. Only by conversing with the locals did the PCs learn how to deal with him, and making him the wrong offer would seriously damage the PCs relations with the lord.
Swim Skills
No RPG software game I know of uses the swim skill, though it could add a lot of tactical options to game play.
Swim - Player characters can traverse deep water terrain by swimming. They could escape pursuers, bypass a bridge guarded by trolls, cross a moat to lower the drawbridge or explore an island in the middle of a lake.
Implementation is relatively simple.
Swim - used to cross deepwater terrain
A PC thief skilled in swimming might safely cross a water obstacle at little or no risk, while a PC fighter clad in Plate Mail would find it to be almost suicidal. Of course, the PC fighter could always remove his heavy armor before attempting the swim.
To make best use of this skill a RPG game with this ability should include;
Needless to say, the designers would also need to include water obstacles that allow; but not require, PCs to make use of this skill.
Sounds cool.
Best regards,Steven.
Dynamic Big Bosses
In many RPG's the Big Boss creature is static. He has the same stats and weapons from one game to another.
What if these stats changed based on player actions? If the PC's fail to stop the minions of the big boss the Big boss grows in power.
Example:
"PCs assigned to guard the temple fail their quest when assasins attack, and the high priest dies in the ensuring battle."
"PCs slay the head of the Thieves Guild, not realizing that he was a rival to the Big Boss and a check on his power. The death of this rival causes the thieve's surviving followers to switch their allegence to the Big Boss. If only they had known, the NPC they slew would have helped the PCs in their assault on the Big Boss."
If the PCs are successful their actions will limit the power of the Big Boss creature; however, if they don't complete specific quests they increase the power of the Big Boss NPC.
This would make the game more replayable and less predictable.
Welcome to the world of Dungeons and Dragons
DDO has this, the armor check penalty though affects more then just the swim skill it also affects dodge, jump skill and your hit accuracy. In DDO the main thing you'll notice is if your wearing Medium to Heavy armor (these two types of armor have the biggest penalty factors, and this is without the masterwork or +# upgrades which reduce the penalty and add bonuses.) The armor check penalty factors majorly into swim because the heavier the armor the shorter the time your able to hold your breath. Say you have a swim skill of 10, your armor has a penalty of 7, your swim skill gets dropped down to 3 which means your time spent underwater will be very limited due to the likelihood that you'll drown before you reach the location you wanted to go to.
Climb Skill - a simple approach for software RPG
The climb skill is also missing from most (if not all) RPG software games.
Scale the wall of a keep at night, climb the side of a mountain, descend a bluff to avoid the bandits guarding the road ahead or climb a statue to reach the jewel at its top.
Implementation in a Balder's Gate like game with its overhead perspective would be simple.
Unencumbered characters skilled in climbing can enter "selected" climbable terrain tiles. These tiles would glow when the skilled climber PC is selected. The designer would mark which terrain tiles are climbable, most impassible terrain tiles would not be so marked (only those that advance a player's tactical options for likely quests).
Example: A PC thief can move up a castle's curtain wall terrain tile if skilled in climbing. An encumbered PC warrior in Plate mail cannot move into a castle's curtain wall terrain tile.
Key: The more skill in climbing, the farther you can climb each turn; i.e. Climber scales 4 titles a turn, Expert Climber scales 8 titles at turn, and Master Climber (Monk) scales 12 tiles a turn. Medium and Heavily encumbered characters can't climb.
Just think of the opportunities for tactical options that this gives players.
Example: You need to enter a keep.
Good and Evil Paths - without the Double Work
Good and Evil adventure paths can use much of the same encounters if smartly written.
Example 1: Same Quest but different motivation and consequences
Notes on Consequences:
Example 2: Same Quest but different motivation
Note: In both cases the PCs may approach the other side (Pirates or local Baron) with a proposal to launch a joint effort against the giants and gain the assistance of an additional NPC or two. The Pirate will only offer assistance if his base was attacked and/or he gets a share of the treasure. The Baron will offer a Paladin (Pal Lvl11) while the Pirate will offer to send his First Mate (Thief, Lvl 11 - see Example 3 below) to represent his interests.
Example 3: Same Adventure Location but different Quests
Note: If the prisoner escapes the priate captain gains 1 level and a new follower (the prisoner)
Example 4: Same Adventure Location but different Quests
Note: If work at the quarry is stopped a castle will not appear in the village map. If work in the quarry proceeds a castle will appear on the village map in x days and several new buildings will appear in the village as new NPC craftsmen and merchants are attracted to the village.
Repurposing Elemental Content
Elemental and FE has a lot of good content - a back story, races, creatures, encounter areas that must be cleared, - dragons, spiders, elementals and overland maps.
If I was developing an RPG at Stardock I would seriously consider using this content to dramatically speed up product development and allow for a richer unique environment.
I would base the core mechanics of the RPG on the Pathfinder 3.5 Open Gaming License and enhance it with Elemental specific content. This gives you a ready made base system for tactical combat, weapons use and skill based on the most popular RPG system in the world. Yes, I know that some people don't like this system; however, this system is far more popular than the other RPG systems in the marketplace.
"The Burning Lands. Delin the Pyre of Man is an Elemental Lord. He was first witnessed when he rose out of the ashes of Anniellum, where 200,000 perished when a volcano exploded during the cataclysm. He remains in the region surrounded by various fire creatures. To clear the Burning Lands Delin must be killed.
We also have the Ruins of the Imperium, the Pits of Namtur, the Lombard Desert and many more"
Elemental presuposes the land coming back to life, so what if the SD RPG incorporated this theme. How? You start in a village with a dry river bed surrounded by parched dry lands with apparantly dead trees. During the course of an adventure to release the waters held within a crater lake. When you next return to the village a river flows through the formerly dry riverbead and the land are a verdant green covered with grass and green trees. Before = Barren, After = Verdant.
Elemental also supposes that magic can change the environment. So what if the lands started out lush. Then an evil mage gained control of a blue ice crystal. This turns all the maps to a realm of snow and ice. IF the adventurers can find and destroy this blue ice crystal the lands the snow & ice will vanish from the lands and the lush green forests will return.
Thus a village might have 3 maps: Barren, Verdant, Winter with snow and ice. Which one a player encounters changes based on the state of the gaming world and their actions.
E and FE have several ethnic groups of men; such as the Ironeers, Mancers, Tarthans and several character races; Men, Trogs, Wraiths, Urxen and Quendar. So give players a choice of races unique to elemental;
Note that the core Pathfinder open gaming license rules (built on the D&D 3.5 rules) are open source are available to all developers to use. Developers are allowed to use the mechanics of the OGL rules but no specific Gaming World IP. Ie. You can't create or reference Neverwinter Nights or Greyhawk; however, but you can create World of Elemental using the OGL.
@Edwin99, there is a PW server in NWN2 that has most of what you are looking for. They have done a lot of custom stuff including climbing and swimming, weight/encumberance, types of armor having negative impact on actions taken like negatives to Hiding ability and even limiting actions based on what is in your hands. it is called Sea of Dragons. You should check it out.
Regarding the main thread, I really like the idea of an RPG type game with a more tactical turn of mind. I am a HUGE fan of the ToEE (it's a shame it was so buggy at launch, but has gotten a lot better with community content). And i would be enthralled by any company that could take that type of thing to task. Most (IMHO) of what companies are calling "RPG" coming out today is more Action-RPG with a heavy focus on "Action". And so there is definitely an argument that there is a need here.
What I would like to see, in addition to what else has been posted is as follows. I have always thought that someone should take a "Risk" or "Elemental" type engine and overlay the Scenario. what I mean by this is that the player has free form as to where they go. But as they defeat certain encounters or clear certain areas, other areas get harder or easier (monsters flee the field and reinforce other areas or maybe lower moral in those areas causing other monsters to flee). Likewise, if you didn't sweap the area and kill everything, you might have a tougher battle elsewhere. You might have "Boss" commanders consolidating their forces in some areas because the enemy (the characters) are attacking too close to a valued asset. Or they may move troops to other battle fields to strike while the character is "Otherwise occupied".
Also, regarding a "Reputation" system. The way I see it, there should be components to any system. Certainly race and general alignment should factor in. But also there should be components related to these three elements. Likabiliy, Trust/Respectability and Fear. Ex. the local vickar is a bit absent minded but is generally very amiable. So high Likability but low trust/respect and no fear. The local Ranger spends most of his time in the woods keeping the village safe from harm. He doesn't talk to pretty so not many people like him. but he is always there in a crunch and so is respected highly. And he is more than a bit gruff and a terror with a sword so some fear. Third, there is a Necromancer in a tower just outside of town. he will turn your skin blue and has raised Grandpa jones as part of his undead army. So no one likes him. No one trusts him, but he has a HIGH fear value. All three would get a decent discount from the local store, but for vastly different reasons. Just saying, just because your evil in a "Good" town, the locals may not want to mess with you so they may give you a greater discount in hopes you go away without turning them into anything "Unnatural".
Anyway, I wouldn't necessarily propose using the DnD license at all (although I like that rules set), but I am positive that the good people at StarDock could come up with something of their own that would be equal to the task. The whole License debackle on the DnD license is something that I wouldn't wish on anyone but Atari/Hasboro.
I am not opposed to "Real Time" but I definitely believe that turn based allows hughly more tactical options than real time. I have played BG series and loved it, but ToEE allowed an unprecidented choice of options that no game has (IMHO) matched. something as simple as the 5 foot step couldn't possibly be implemented in a real time engine. To example, I once played a game called Xcom: Appocalypse. it had a real time engine component because that was the way the market was going. but when you actually tried to play the real time version of the game it was HORRIBLE in real time. You couldn't control 8-10 marines tactically in real time with the level of control necessary to kill the aliens. it simply was not possible without dumbing down the choices. so I played the turn based version and thoroughly loved it. Not everything is/should be about how quickly you can click the mouse.
@the_spyder, I agree.
01. I have played BG, IWD, NWN1, NWN2, Witcher and TOEE. Of all these RPG's I enjoyed the tactical battles of TOEE the most. In a IGYG initiative based battles you have a wide range of tactical decisions that make each battle exciting and different. How you move, where you move, what weapon do you use, do you switch weapons, do you charge, do you use a powerstrike, do you heal a fallen comrade, whom do you attack and in what order has a great effect on the outcome of the battle. Every battle is different with the order of movement determined by initiative + random factor. It's like chess. Not a quick click fest, but a battle where superior tactics can turn the tide.
02. In the TOEE ModPack update from the Circle of Eight; www.co8.org the main dungeon responds to player actions. If you enter a dungeon and retreat to rest before fully clearing it the surviving monsters regroup to give you a much stronger fight on your return.
03. Though I have no doubt of Stardock's ability to design their own game mechanics, development time would be accelerated if they used the mechanics (rules) from the the Pathfinder OGL 3.5 (Open Gaming License - available for use royalty free in other products so long as credit is given to Patherfinder and Pathfinder/D&D Specific IP is not used).
Stardock would use their Elemental IP to customize the OGL mechanics for the Elemental Universie.
Example: A Stardock game would have player selectable races of: Human (Mancer), Human (Altar), Human (Ironeer), Trog and Wraith. There would likely be no halflings or gnomes. Standard OGL spell list would be expanded to include new spells designed by Stardock. The standard OGL weapon and armor list would be expanded to include new items designed by Stardock. The very limited standard OGL creature list would be expanded to include new Stardock designed creatures (The Pathfinder (D&D) creatures not in the OGL list are considered Pathfinder or D&D IP and can't be used without permission). You would use Elemental Traits in character development (In OGL terms they are called Feats).
There is definitely interest in more Tactical RPG type games, although most game developers don't seem to believe that is a viable market anymore. Certainly there is a heavy focus on making the game "Console Compatible" and Real time focused. Unfortunately, as has been stated, that really curbes the strategic components.
Admittedly BG series had heavy real time strategic combat, but almost everything since then has been on a slow slide towards dumbed down console gaming. One game in particular (the original which I liked) came out with a sequel that was clearly architected for console and then ported back to PC (or seemingly so) to the point where most of the remaining "Tactical" components were completely done in.
I think that the folks at Star Dock could come up with their own IP given the appropriate development time. And that would give them a launching ground for a franchise. But even if they were to take an existing property and develop it along the lines that were being discussed, I think they would find significant community sales and support.
Anyway, here's hoping.
IMO a successful Stardock RPG should feature;
Temple of Elemental Evil - Atari - the D&D game with a focus on tactical combat - is available on Goold Old Games www.gog.com for $5.99.
Circle of 8 Mod Packs for this game - that add NPCs that respond to your actions, new quests, new spells and new monsters is available from Circle of Eight: www.co8.org
Circle of 8 Expansion Video: http://youtu.be/nAAHcTtBDeY
Example of Low Level TOEE Combat: http://youtu.be/1fKv2KzpHwA
Example of TOEE Combat Video: http://youtu.be/eOF0OuRZ6Rc
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