I started playing the beta just before the release, and v.1. Then, I put the game down for a while, and have recently picked it back up with the beta builds leading up to 1.1.
There are a lot of improvements, and I like the improvements – they do make it better. But the feeling I get now is how I felt after playing through version 1.0 the first two times – there’s nothing to look forward to, to entice "just one more turn."
In MoM, there were cool spells (I know, the spell book is being revamped). But there were also cool creatures – Sky Drakes, Archangels, Giant Spiders with their damn webs. I always looked forward to getting those beefy high end creatures – paladins, warlocks and the like. In HoMM there were Titans and Black Dragons. In MOO2 I got to build death stars. In Elemental, I get to look forward to Lord Hammers and Full Plate Armor – it’s less than thrilling.
In Civ4 with every tech advance I get to hear Leonard Nimoy recite a succinct yet profound bit of wisdom – and it’s thrilling even after hoards of games of Civ. In Alpha Centauri I always found the tech advance descriptions/movies interesting (even after playing it dozens of times over). In GalCiv there was always some goofy or nerdy reference in there (though I probably only read the techs every 5 or 10 games). Elemental doesn’t have much life in its tech advances – I find myself just crunching numbers to determine what boosts I need most right now.
In MOO2 I always loved getting those high level governors, and sending large fleets to destroy those massively powerful guardians (essential boss fights), and then colonizing and pumping up those beautiful planets they guarded. In MoM there were those nodes guarded by 8 Sky Drakes or Great Worms that were savagely difficult to win and had massively powerful goodies. In Civ4 I had my towns that slowly grew up over dozens of turns, that couldn’t simply be replaced if pillaged.
The battle animations are great. The detail of the town when zoomed in is great. The way borders expand, and how caravans build roads and travel back and forth, and how monsters and heroes band together over time – all great. But those are all aspects to be taken for granted. They’re the background of the game, and they make it gorgeous – they’re just nothing to look forward to. There’s no motive for “just one more turn.” There’s nothing to look forward to*.
*(Except, maybe, dragons – but they’re such a pain on the battlefield they’re more frustrating than fun).
*Edit – A short summary of this thread. I have by no means included all of the ideas, thoughts and opinions put forth in the 55 posts below (as of the time of this edit).
First – Much of this thread is a reply to Frogboy's comments in post 4 (it's short - scroll down a bit and read it).
I may be interpreting his comments wrong, but what his proposal seems to me is parallel to what Blizzard did with Starcraft. In TBS, 4X, we're all playing the same game - we research the same techs, build the same buildings and units, pursue the same resources. What changes from game to game is our strategy. What I read in the idea of streamlining to three tech trees is the creation of three wholly separate, but (eventually) balanced games (Compare Magic, Civilization and Adventure to Zerg, Protoss and Terran). Someone focused on rebuilding a shattered world through cities, kingdoms and empires would entirely different needs from someone seeking to rediscover lost magic, or treasure hunters looking to uncover pre-Cataclysmic ruins. In theory, it's an idea that would change 4X gaming entirely, similar to what Starcraft did with RTS. It's a fascinating idea. Or I'm just reading too much into it.
In post 19, Nonjin has offered a thoughtful commentary on how he feels about the state of the game.
In post 28, Tanafres puts forth an idea that I find very interesting. Summarized:
In post 31, Vinadil offers in the third paragraph a different perspective on why 4X games appeal to him/her.
In post 33, WhiteElk, a long time 4X player, offers a detailed explanation of why version 1.09e had greater “just one more turn” appeal, along with his/her thoughts on what makes 4X a great genre. The post is long, but is well formatted for skimming/scanning.
In the 40s posts – A discussion arises regarding monster lairs. This idea has been around since pre-release, and (I think) is still a pretty cool idea.
In post 53, quoting Sir_Linque “Yes there are special units you can research up to, but the total customization of human troops feels too much like a game of Excel.”
To reiterate, the above is NOT a comprehensive summary of this thread. It is just a quick synopsis of what caught my attention. *
*Edit 2 - 69 replies.
In the 60s, Several comments on lending a more RPG-esque nature to heroes, where the Adventuring tree would unlock more "Different weapons, armors and kits" for different types of classes (Rogues, Wizards, Clerics, Sword Saints etc...), and also abilities. It seems an interesting concept as it could effectively segregate the RPG elements, allowing the player to spice his 4X experience however he/she might choose (Perhaps taking a healthy dose of warmongering with a side of RPG, or vice versa).
Post 69, TarlSS asks for "an end to building spam," proposing instead that each building should have multiple levels. I say keep both the building spam as an option, but also allow for leveling up buildings. Some kings are messy, sprawling their nations across the wasteland; others are meticulous magekings building tidy enclaves.
[Digression - Having just played a game of Civ5 (new patch, large map), I was thrilled to win a game having only built three cities. My capital was able to produce higher research, culture and production than any other civilization.] *
You could also add faction traits that speed up research of a given type, addressing some of the pacing issues, instead of just putting the design through the compactor.
Well, keep up the great work Frogboy & everyone else at StarDock, I got real life agroing me... gotta run & hide.
I definitely think that you're onto something here; stopping and thinking about it I realized that the civilization and warfare tech trees really are technology, whereas the others seem out of place. Think about it: to learn the book of fire magic spells I need my best engineers on the job? Really? This is currently a bottleneck / limiter, where in order to be strong magically you also need to be strong technologically simply to unlock magic (and how weird is that, really?) The arcane research path would make much more sense; maybe part of your research goes towards the spells in your spellbook, while another portion could be applied to learn the concepts that are currently in the magic 'tech tree', which might include increasing the available spell level. Kind of like the MoM sliders (where you would apportion your incoming power between increasing casting skill, mana reserves, and research). If we moved to this approach, then when there are no outstanding spells selected to learn, all arcane research would go to the arcane 'techs' (spells and magic 'techs' could probably be merged into one path, but that would require a lot of thought, and probably also pre-selection of what you're researching since there would be a lot of different difficulty levels available at one time).
Likewise, some librarian is advancing your adventuring capabilities? That's odd. Shouldn't the actions or practice of your adventurers out in the field be bigger determinants of your adventuring prowess? This feeds directly into that oddly lame (sorry, but it is) 'something at the back of your mind tells you you're not ready' adventure message, as opposed to 'you don't have the skills to pick the lock on the chest', 'it seems like someone has been here recently, but the hut is empty', 'looking around the suspicious rubble you find... more rubble. Maybe it's not suspicious after all', etc. (followed by an explanation of whatever adventure hallmark you would need to exploit the site's potential, naturally). If you wanted to continue to advance research in a tech-like way, each of your adventurers could contribute to the adventure advancement pool based on their accomplishments (level would be a reasonable coarse-grained stat to base it on).
So, your studies and libraries would advance your technology, your arcane research would independently advance all of your magic knowledge, and your adventuring activities would advance your knowledge of how to exploit the remnants strewn around the world. Suddenly all three core game mechanics are raised from mere play styles to be more independent and internally cohesive, freeing you from the bottleneck of technology ruling all - and allowing you to more effectively enjoy all aspects of the core mechanics in a single game
While we're on this subject, what's the deal with single-only, same-tree-only technology prerequisites? That seems kind of... flat. Not to mention, it seems a bit exploitive to 'race' up a single part of a single tree.
Another of my $.02 thrown into the pot
EDIT: Wow, I really should read the entire thread before jumping to posting; Ratatosk7 & Sethai came close to my magic suggestion already - Rata even made the same point about engineers researching magic... spooky!
Unfortunately, this is undermined by multiple divergent branches of the three or five tech trees. Going down one branch may yeild great results, but you'll be held back by lacking the techs on a different branch of that same tree. This is an issue that currently exists in the Warfare tree, which has quite a lot of divergent paths. If you are not rushing headlong into the most advanced reaches of a given branch, it becomes instead more advantageous to spread out, researching from all the different trees.
I agree a lot with the OP.
To add more examples, Shogun Total War 1.0 had the Hojo Horde; later versions had Kensai & Battlefield Ninja.
Master of Orion had, well, Orion.
There was a similar thread a few weeks ago with a subject something like "we need a hook".
I think part of the reason that the Diplomacy Tree lacks interest is because diplomacy in general is very lacking. I have yet to see any benefit in talking to my neighbors unless I want to steal their daughters or buy some resources. And, I don't see much value in the Dynasty, so no need for their daughters, and taking their cities is a much easier way to get resources.
This is another spot where GalCiv2 did something different, and better imo. You could actually play a diplomacy-heavy game there and forge alliances that led to your victory. That kind of thing just is not possible in Elemental... the diplomacy interactions are too simplistic.
Everything has room to grow, so I am not sure taking things out is the answer right now. I am also not in agreement with the OP that the game is lacking the "one more turn" fixation... as I have played 200+ turns on almost every build you guys released coming up to 1.1. Of course I may just be a different kind of player, because all of the games he mentioned became stale to me on the "turn level" and still remained interesting on the meta-game level. GalCiv/MOO2/Civ4... none of them are exciting because of the cool tech descriptions or voice overs... it is because each game has the chance of being VERY different from the game before. The journey to 1.1 has done something very similar for Elemental, at least for the first 200 turns. I have yet to play an entire game through to "victory" since I start over with every build.
You can definitely see the result of game designers coming in, and I am looking forward to the AI here getting closer to the AI in GalCiv2.
That might actually be a good idea. Civilisation and warfare in many cases go naturally together. Some basic examples
Stoneworking - that can be used to build palaces or forts/stone walls etc
Bronze/iron - used to make tools for farming/construction or for weapons
Wheels - wagons (trade/farming) or chariots
Civilisation and diplomacy could go together. A single tech tree devoted to diplomacy isn't very exciting and diplomacy could be iniated from the literacy based technologies in the civilisation tree that also allow you to construct libraries etc.
I'm finding a significant decrease in the "just one more turn" phenomena as well. To the point of losing my will to play. But it was there in spades for v1.09e. I love this game and am very much liking the changes. I am more excited for the future of this game than I have been for any other game! But once I've started a new game, and have begun exploring, I consistently lose the motivation to play. I get excited about playing, but that interest is quickly lost once I am in game. I should point out that 4X TBS games are pretty much the only games I play. I was a Civ fanatic and now look to Elemental +mods to be that 'one' game for me as Civ once was (but I'm not looking for a civ clone, I'm looking for something different and better. I see the potential for this in EWoM). I've played enough games during and after v1.09e to identify the root cause of my decreasing interest.
The scarcity of resources affects my motivation to play on multiple levels:
1) The discovery of resources provides motivation and added purpose to early exploration. Goody hut popping and monster busting is fun. But exploration needs the added purpose of locating exploitable resources. Goody huts and monsters are a one time action. You deal with them and your done. But resource discovery leads to some decision making and follow up actions. Some resources are rarer than others. Some are cool for the things they allow. Others are critical. And some are just opportunistic bonuses from which we can capitalize on. Finding these resources, and then attempting to claim them before an opponent does, makes for a nice bit of early game tension and priority juggling. Forming extermination parties to make a region safe for settlement is also interesting. These things add purpose and excitement to the early game. Not finding many if any resources, and not finding suitable places to settle, takes a big chunk out of the early game fun.
2) Near and distant resource clusters provide early game decision making. There are resources you want to have, and there are resources you may want to deny your opponent. There are resources that will impact your strategy making, and there are resources that just add an interesting atmosphere to the map and your gameplay. After locating resources, player has decisions to make. Priorities to juggle. Preparations to organize. Fodder from which to RP. A resource poor map makes for decreased decision making, and it reduces our empire customization choices. And it works counter to the precepts of 4X TBS gaming... Explore, so one can Expand, in order to Exploit, to prevent being Exterminated.
3) Resources foster city specialization. In v1.09e, due to a UI inefficiency, I was naming my cities in such a way as to indicate which city specialization to select for each new city level (Gilden, Astecha, Archana...). Most every game I had cities specialized for Gildar, Tech, and Arcane (also Materials to a lesser degree). Some specializations took longer to achieve than others. Sometimes I had to go to war to gain a specializing resource. Other times I had to expand dangerously far out into the frontier. Sometimes I focused on influence modifiers to more rapidly net a resource. Other times I focused on prestige in order to quicken the city level growth modifiers. I was often compelled to detour my intended tech route in order to gain access to influence and prestige infrastructure. These specializing resources had a notable affect on my decision making. Those were fun times. Lots of decisions to make and different ways to go about things. Pressure to discover particular resources; motivation to specialize. Now there is a big void where once there was excitement, tension, decisions, anticipation,... things which drive the "one more turn syndrome". It was exciting to be pressured by a dire need. It was fulfilling to find a solution. And it was satisfying to have seen an opportunity, made a choice, invested towards a distant future return, then eventually begin reaping the reward.
I was compelled to keep hitting the end turn button so I could just get this one thing done... then another... then another... I'm not finding that anymore. And I'm not being pressured to come up with solutions to anything beyond defense. I am compelled to always choose the Gildar CL specialization because that affords me the ability to build whatever cookie cutter building I should require at the moment. I can construct these buildings en mass where ever and whenever I want. I find/capture the food to support a few cities and thats it. Once you got the food, you can grow your cities to get the tax income you need to build mass clones of the tech, arcane and material buildings. Food is the only resource pressure left. Gone are the days where we had to seek out supplemental resources in order to advance our societies. Lost is the tension of balancing resource exploitation against infrastructure. I really miss that! There were societal needs that had to be overcome in order to stay competitive. There was tension, there was a need to find solutions. I hope that v1.2 will see this change back. The AI and other improvements of v1.1 Beta, added to the resource occurrence of v1.09e would be great fun. And it would be superb to have some new resources which foster more specialization while adding flavor... military/martial arts academy, farming coop, blacksmiths union, travelers inn, ranger camp, ++. These resources would represent specialized groups of survivors coming together to share a common purpose (just like Lost Libraries and Arcane Temples).
4) Flavor. Resource variety is interesting. Perhaps particularly so in this game which promotes role-playing. We already have numerous tools which facilitates role-playing. Resources could, and I think should, augment our opportunity to RP. I generally liked the resource occurrence rates of v1.09e. For later builds, I would have liked to see increased resource variety.
City Spamming, and the Cataclysm:
Bah Humbug! ;~P I think I dislike the phrase City Spamming, as much as Frogboy dislikes the mis-usage of the term broken. I read people arguing that decreased resource rates prevent city spamming. I don't see that. In fact I see the opposite. With food as a rarity, I am compelled to cap my capital at CL3 and build two outposts. If I have access to two food resources, and there are no exploitable resources within a 40 tile radius or so, then I am compelled to allow a second city to cap at CL3 and then build a couple more outposts. Then I use this increased unit production to enable the capture of some AI controlled food. Then I do it again to exponentially repeat the process. Level 4 & 5 sized cities have lost some significance compared to v1.09e. The specialization bonuses have lost value... Partly due to decreased resources, and partly due to a lift on building caps. So I tend to build more cities using less food than before. In v1.09e I would generally build three cities to grow to CL5 and then a few smaller outposts to function as border forts and/or resource harvesters. There was variance, but my mid-game tendency was towards a few mega-cities and a handful of outposts. Post v1.09e sees me tending towards an ICS strat with a few CL3 cities and numerous outposts.
Another thing that people are saying in argument for reduced resources, is that the world should be barren and desolate as a result of the Cataclysm. First thing I would say is that gameplay and enjoyment should trump a story plot any day of the week! The enjoyment requirements for different individuals will vary drastically. But after many years of reading AAR's, GOTM, HOF, SG's and other reports from fans of 4x TBS games, I am left convinced that the tendency for the majority of dedicated players of the 4X TBS genre... is to build moderate to large empires, not a a couple isolated cities. Now EWoM is different. It's special and unique. In good great ways. But still, anything that drastically limits empire building, such as the the purposeful lack of resources, seem to me to be at odds with EWoM's targeted core. Excessively large tracks of unusable terrain might more literally reflect the story, but I think it unrealistically represents the genre. I may be off my rocker with some of this, but I do think that the majority of players would prefer a more vibrant and opportunistic world than what is offered atm.
So the world was destroyed 160 years ago. We are now at a point in history where hundreds of people flock to our cities every season. What supported these people before we founded our cities? They were already there. We just build things that entice them to come live with us. So after 160 years, clearly life is on the rebound if the planet is able to support such rapid population growth of the humanoids. So organic resources are replenishing. In isolated pockets at least. Inorganic resources are being uncovered by erosion then discovered by exploration. We can tell ourselves a variety of different stories to explain a barren world story that still has enough going on to make it fun. We've already got the barren, desert, and arctic land designations. But within all this barrenness there are life supporting oasis. And amongst all the rubble, there is still iron, clay, marble, gold etc. I'm all for moderatly large tracks of inhospitable wildlands. But I think its been taken a bit far and has become a detriment to gameplay. I vote to dial it back to the v1.09e rates.
I admit I did not read the entire super tl;dr post above me (no offense). I agree with you there is a huge issue with exploration being almost pointless atm. Coincidentally there are also constant complaints about the exploration tracks. Now using my magic powers of logic, I think maybe we need to move Exploration out of the tech tree and into the hands of Explorers. Would it be that bad if all those goodie huts were on the map to begin with, just having a difficulty tag or something attached to them. Same story for resources, hardly any strategy placing cities outside of just filling out your borders. Then when you research a tech (assuming it spawns something in YOUR borders), annoying things like libraries spawning by your gold focused city or gold mines spawning by your arcane specialized city happen ruining your previous plans and replacing strategy with sheer luck.
One thing that is currently missing from elemental, is some sort of mechanism that breaks the tech up into different tiers so that you had to learn all the tech in a given tier in order to open up the next one.
say for example, with the current system in place, you could only learn 5 civ, 5 war, 3 arcane, 3 adventuring and 3 diplomacy in order to open up tier 2 tech.
there are a couple of ways to break this up, but something like this should be done to stop someone from pushing through the war tech to be 3 or 4 armour types ahead of everybody else for example.
You could have stone age tech, bronze age, iron age, (elentium age ?),... age of wonders
or you could have the age of recovery (from the disaster), the age of rediscovery (relearning some of the secrets of the ancients) and the age of ... i want to say wonders again ... well, you know.
another way t would be to have different tech types be requirements for each other. For example, schools could be a requirement for tier 2 magic research, markets could be a requirement for caravan research, certain weapons could be requirements for magic weapon research - after all, you do need a certain infrastructure in place to be able to make those magic items.
I don't think it is worth throwing out different classes of research. I see the potential for expansions to add to what is available. Don'tr combine adventuring with diplomacy, instead come up with ideas to flesh the out - they are unfinished and need more options. Adventuring tech is the perfect opportunity to add feats and skills to heroes and sovereigns. After recruiting, for example, you could discover some people in the wilderness who are willing to teach your heroes how to do certain things. You can then make a building where heroes can buy upgrades or learn them on level ups - you don't even need the requirement of making the building, just the discovery alone could be enough - Although a heroes guild where this sort of thing is available would be neat instead of just having the shop option available.
So this addresses 2 things, slowing down the late game steamroll, and adding in the "oh this is so cool i want to play one more turn"
Because i for one, stop playing the game atm when i know i've hit the end game and have no desire to wade through the denouement of the game. I think the current batch of Lv 5 spells helps with this though, and i want to play through to see what they are like.
Tomorrow I'm going to write up a help file for new players getting used to the game, i'll have to see what's in the new update 1st though - i'm off to bed - oh, and my cat is ok too after throwing up 2 feet of yarn. Nothing more toxic than cat barf. Yum.
Good post. I agree completely, and I can't quite put my finger on what the cause is. In theory, I love all the changes. But, my FPS has gone way down since 1.09 and... the game just seems off. Research costs seems high, building costs seem way too low. I don't know what it is, to be honest. Does anyone else feel this way, or am I crazy? I feel like I'll probably put this game on the backburner until both(!) of the expansions come out.
"just one more turn"... Ah!...a Civilization disease!
... that I got long ago, and lost with Civ V.
Elemental is now my best bet for filling the gap, and extending the pleasure I still have playing Civ 4 + FFH... I cannot say yet if it has this 1-more-turn feeling as I am way too busy at work for playing it right now !!! (oooops...)
Talking about FFH, I wonder 2 things:
1- 2 designers are supposed to join Elemental team in January. Whoever they are, I am sure they are very welcome. But quid of "Kael"? Is not he the main designer in charge? It is unclear to me if too many won't do too much as it can lead to conflictual ideas ... and "artists" are always fond of their creation(s)...
2- It is certainly very very welcome to see FrogBoy extending long hours of work at the office for answering posts concerning Elemental. But why not having 1 voice, and put "kael"/Derek Paxton, who I thought was the main designer, in touch with players? Perhaps Brad should seat back and relax, and let a co-pilot do his job and communicate. and get immersed in the game?
Not sure if my questions can be answered though... As a private company, there are some choices and strategies that perhaps do not need to be made public. This, I understand...
(sorry for my bad English)
If Stardock thinks that the only way to improve the game is by cutting down trees... as long as the end result is fun and that, as with many other things, I'll accept it. That said, I like the 5 trees and would like them more fleshed out and with some interactions between them. But I'm just a gamer in a legion of.
WhiteElk, you have a point. 1 person for collecting / summarizing ideas, and informal posts from any others...
Talking about tec trees...
Whatever is the choice (3 or 5 or any number of trees), I would not like to see it like Civ 5 : a mandatory path, and you can easily do it all.
What I like in FFH mod for Civ 4, and in GalCiv2, was that the tec trees could not be really fully discovered: you had to choose a path, a style.
Larger is the tec tree, more pathes you can take, and the game has a different flavor according to the tec choices you do. You are free to morph your game according to your tec choices, with not a single choice being "the best" for avoiding exploits. Certainly difficult to do in terms of balances, but surely very rewarding in term of exploration of new styles of games...
But, exactly as says Withersong, the trees must have bridges, they must interact so then you can make a "panaché" of choices, and explore in a non-linear way. GalCiv2 tree was good in this way...
I think that is a great idea, because it would be easier to balance three trees instead of five, but i think the trees should be:
- Civilization (Civilization + Diplomacy)
- Warfare (Warfare)
- Magic (Magic + Adventure)
I agree fully. Very good point. Besides would we have locations spawning in the real world? No of course not, we know there're there by exploring. We build mines because we know there's something there. I think it would make sense to put that in the game as well instead of spawning by certain tech.'It'll make the game much more tactical as well right from the start.
Yeah, you could even go the path of HOMM and have monsters guarding resources, or an Elemental-themed way of doing a appropriately balanced and interesting quest for the creatures who are guarding the resources, so you have an alternative to just beating them up.
What are other people's ideas?Best regards,Steven.
I quite like the current trees however I feel spawning of Monsters, Hero's and Quests should be removed from the tech trees and controlled behind the scenes. Frogboy I have seen you post before about how the land around our citys sometimes feels abit bland and sterile. In my opinion currently the world of Elemental doesn't feel like a world at all, it just feels like a blank slate which we gradually "fill in" by researching tech. In other words it feels like the cool things that are already in the game such as dragons and high level champions feel seperate from the world of elemental, an ingrediant which we as the player have to choose to add.
I think that if Monsters, Champion, Quests etc were always there or had a chance of being there from the start then Elemental's world would feel much more real and vibrant. Instead of controlling spawning via the research tech you would instead control your ability to benifit from and interact with the world around you which in my opinion is much more rewarding.
Agreed. Good, succinct points that nail the heart of the problem.
Best regards,Steven.
xStarfirex I do agree as well.Some items of the world do seem detached.
While there is nothing wrong with certains spawns due to research (Civ does this too) there has to be a balance between making the world desolate, but still keeping it interesting and suitably tactical.
High level monsters are cool, but if they start to roam the map they can become a problem early on as we have seen in earlier builds of the game, so a different solution has to be found here.Maybe a trigger that Dragons, for example, can be found by exploration, so we know where their lair is, but they do not roam very far from their lair initially or something.
Agreed, I think lairs are a very cool idea and I have seen them mentioned in other threads. Also I have seen someone mention a tiered percentage based spawning system that changes based on the number of season that have passed.
eg
season 1 chance to spawn
wolves and bandits 100%
bears 50%
darklings 10%
spiders 5%
season 10 chance to spawn
bears 90%
darklings 40%
spiders 25%
season 30 chance to spawn
bears 100%
darklings 60%
spiders 60%
skags 10%
season 50 chance to spawn
darklings 100%
spiders 100%
skags 40%
alpha wolf 20%
and so on
Monsters could spawn in the world every 5 seasons based on these percentages. Mix this spawning idea in with the "lair" idea so you still feel the really cool monsters are there from the start and you will have a world that will hopefully feel more alive.
Interesting idea indeed.
Perhaps a dragons lair, for example, could exert its own zone of control. said dragon would use this zone to gradually subjugate the world to its own liking - fire dragon turns it into lava world for example, and then the dragon gets the bonus for fighting in its zoc and you get a penalty. The dragon wouldnt venture out of its zone, so you wouldn't have to worry about it wandering out and eating the peasants.
Now the dragons children on the other hand....
This would help break up the landscape and i think other monsters could do the same thing.
Ogres makes swamps....
Yes, yes and yes... Lairs with their own ZOC, thats bloody brilliant. Then we would get the awesome situation where resources fall inside the lairs ZOC and you have the tough choice as to if go after the resource and clear out the den or if you just leave the monsters alone. Also love your idea that monsters would turn the land to what suits them. I hope Kael or Frogboy reads your post.
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