I'll keep this brief and then update the OP later.
I've found several dgs that I believe are QUITE powerful using magical coin pouch. As I know this isn't considered a super serious favor item, I figured I'd throw this out there for now, then share my experience later when I have the chance.
Have any of you experimented with magical coin pouch (mcp) with any success?
Quick thoughts - it can't really make up for Bots, but I believe it can easily make up for Botf or dcv.
Consider - if you stay at your base at the start for about 20 extra seconds, you can afford any 1500 gold item. And you can factor into your head that all 1500 gold items cost you 1200 gold. which means when you go back to base to shop, if you stall until you hit 3600, you can afford 3 1500 gold items, etc. Anyway, I think it adds up very nicely and can make a huge difference. Again, I don't think it can make up for bots, but for other favor items... yeah.
NT
I had some fun with it back when I played QoT. I'd shield everyone at the crystal and send some monks out with them and wait around and buy scaled helm... though if I was in a rush I'd just get scaled mail since the early armor and QoT's natural HP regen was a nice combo.
Later game it was quite nice whether I was playing citadel bitch or trying to save for Hungarling's or whatever. The thing is, it may not be a super great favor item, but its better than people realize IMO. You're not just saving 15% on everything you buy... the extra money you're saving also goes 15% farther. In other words if you spend 10,000 gold, its not as if you only get an extra 1500 gold out of the favor item... that extra 1500 is 15% more valuable to you.
ahh I was just about to say that Thunder used to use it
I think that Queen and Reg are the two demigods that can use it best (and, pretty much only imo... "maybe" Occulus).
However, for Queen both Cloak and Blood are superior, imo. Coin Pouch Queen can certainly work in a 3v3 with a UB and another carry (like a Rook). Reg can use it to ... not gimp himself quite so much while buying every citadel upgrade ever. But I think that HW provides greater utility, and also has the POSSIBILITY to reward the player thru skill and get 15% more gold... for the whole team. Staff of Renewal allows better mine support and also can get that last snipe off just before they get to the crystal.
I've found it to be exceedingly good on rook.
But then again I've come up with a more unique item build based on having mcp with rook...
I'm still dreaming of coming up with a way to get a decent build going that uses wings of the seraphim... that's a little more challenging, though.
Lol @ a magical coin pouch UB vs a dark crimson vial UB, that would be fun. Until I see some evidence to the contrary I think you're crazy, can't see it working in any top tier game with a character other than reg (if there's also a reg on the other team of course).
I have found that queen works well with it early and mid games, but late games come a problem.
well... to be fair, I don't think you could use mcp on a ub vs another ub and be successful. But, could you take out another rook that has vial/bots/botf? I'd say yes. Anyway, its all just theory crafting until I get a chance to try it out in a tier 1 game.
Erebus or early hybird oak can take out a ub if played the right build!
I tried out the mcp Rook last night and it was a pretty mismatched game 2v2 with me as rook and a really new REG vs so-so UB and so-so TB. We ended up losing after some nice feeding but I have to say I was surprised how well I was doing with it. I ended up having to buy most of the citadel upgrades which probably defeats the purpose of Rook having this favor but I still ended up with a nice kit. I think if played normal avoid all citadel upgrading unless absolutely neccessary rook then I can see it being pretty powerful and one step ahead of enemy rook possibly the whole game.
I just started normal banded and scaled helm then lasted out until about 3k went back and bought unbreak, nimoth, teles and large mana pot after that I kinda got messed up buying cit upgrades. I went normal tower whore build except I skipped the powerslam and went for a early point in struc transfer because I didnt know what to expect. I am going to toy with the struc transfer more because I was able to spam that and towers after the second trip to shop with a very early, full mid game kit(vlem. other 1500 helm pfff forgot name, nimoth, unbreak, hauberk) I dont even think I would need the second helm if not using the early powerslam and just stack hp and be ustoppable ripping apart towers early.
If nothing else I had way more fun than playing regular vial/blood Rook. I am interested in seeing what you guys come up with.
I also had some interesting ideas of other characters using the mcp instead of just buying every cit upgrade there is to buy using it mainly as support and buying items for other players. Like reg dropping Ub with an early nimoth in the first minute or something and still not really gimping himself.
How does selling these items work? Buy a 1500 item at the 15% discount 1275 (1500*.85= 1275) give it to UB he uses it then sells it for 80% of original price 1500*.80 = 1200. So team only loses 75(5%) gold in the transfer of money instead of the full 20% they would lose without the mcp. I dont even know how useful that would be but seems like something to look at also.
Glad to hear you gave it a go. Its currently my favorite rook spec (I've tried it in a few 1v1's and it is probably its strongest there (took out a few ub players using blood and heaven's wrath without too much trouble). The real beauty in the item is that in 3v3 and larger games, no one really expects the rook to be picking up currency, which means you become MUCH stronger faster than a vial or bots rook could counter on the other team. This typically means that I can get the team cur2, etc after some leveling (if needed) - but I agree, if you are taking the role of "guy who buys all of the upgrades" you are kind of shooting yourself in the foot to try this build. Rooks don't generally buy currency and if you are going to take that role, you'd be much better off picking up vial, imo. The whole point of using mcp on rook is having a better kit than anyone else could have at a faster pace to increase your staying power and control of lanes. Of course, this build is also only as good as your teammates. Like all games, if someone on your team is feeding a bit early/mid game, the other team will have more money and be able to catch up to your build (which negates the benefit of mcp quite a bit - and the second its benefits are negated, wouldn't you rather have a vial or blood or whatever?).Here's a quick sampling of how I'm using mcp rook (not to say its completely optimized, but it ain't bad).wait about 20 sec at the start of the game. You likely give up 1 wave of creeps, but oh well. Then...item 1 - Plenor-1275 gold - gives you a larger mana pool, but not a super great mana per sec rate as a solo item.you start with low hp, but more mana for longer staying power. As long as you play this right, if you are laning with another rook, he will run out of mana before you (he's already been in a lane likely and dropped 1 or 2 towers). So, just bide your time and if you end up in a 1v1 vs a rook, you will probably be able to push him out as long as you are patient. Basically now, its just a rush to get to level 4 and the 2nd level of towers. I generally try to conserve mana until I hit 4 and then start spamming towers.
Other items can vary quite a bit based on situation, so its extremely difficult to come up with a particular item build. Like I mentioned, every 1275 gets you a 1500 gold item, so try to be conservative and stay out as long as possible. 2,550 will get you 2 1500 items. 3,825 gold will get you 3 1500 gold items. Tp scrolls cost 212.5 a pop. You'll likely need to get a second helm soon along with a hp and or armor item after you've been out in a lane a bit. The bottom line is that if you are conservative, you will have a better kit than anyone out there and have a pretty extreme level of staying power.One of the more experimental item set's I've been playing with is only having plenor for mana along with hungralings for the mps, extra mana pool, and 25% ability reduction aura. As you can generally afford hungralings fairly early, I've found that I stay out a bit longer than if I had plenor/vlemish while constantly spamming abilities (towers/boulders/slams) with that hat combo. Anyway, I'm still toying with the build and STILL haven't had a chance to play a full tier 1 game giving it a go, but I like it and it lends itself very well to my rook play style.
There are quite a few possibilities here, but the results would be... interesting. If you had a ub going blood along with 2 other dgs using mcp, after about 20 seconds, they could instantly load the ub (who would buy whatever he normally buys) with unbreakable and nimoth. There are plenty of options, but the players that are gimping themselves have to be able to compensate for the loss of early items... basically, it would have to be worth it to hook up another dg to justify gimping 2 of them (eg there must be staying power in key lanes or certain kills). Anyway, it opens up some possibilities... are they great possibilities... probably not, but other options on how to play to be sure.
I'll give the plenor a try. I really liked the illusion of going normal rook with banded and scaled and if laning with another rook by the time it is the 1750 gold for vlemish time holding out for a while longer and then showing up with banded, scaled, vlemish and unbreak or even banded, scaled, unbreak and nimoth w/ mana pot. I cant really remember the normal timing but I feel like 1700gold time you are about level 3 or 4 and once you come back you're probably out there until level 7 or 8 with whatever you bought. It seems like with the MCP you should always be one 1500 item ahead. After that you should be just amazing but yeah I agree it should more of and early domination and keep up throughout. You might be a bit weaker the first couple of minutes but after that it starts tipping the other way. I'm going to toy around with it to see how many people on my team I can piss off and how many times I get called noob seeing the MCP with rook. heh
Did you just use normal tower build?
IDK about 2 other characters using it but I was talking more just one and holding off on buying all the additional cit upgrades like exp 1&2 and who knows what else and sinking that money into gear for the tank. I have only ever seen Reg use the MCP and I don't really know what standard play with it is, if there is such thing, but the few times I've seen it the Reg bought every cit upgrade there was. FS 1&2 currency1 2 exp 1,2,3. So instead of all that crap other than the FS 1 and currency 1&2 just buy gear for the others and still be able to keep a decent kit for himself.
Yeah - the illusion is a good thing. The downside to this is now that I've discussed the build here, the tier 1 folks will generally know the favor I'm using if I appear with 1900 hp and then will be extremely aggressive pursuing me for an early kill... which means I have to be much more cautious than I'd prefer, but challenges are fun, too. Anyway, the disguise would serve a useful purpose, but then I'd be giving up the mana advantage and basic early strategy.
heh - I haven't been called a noob yet in game using this build, but I will do my best to get that label
Depends on what you mean by that, but more than likely, yes - just varying 1 or 2 skills at diff times (but all I get are towers/boulder/splam/arrow(trebucet)/ strength upgrade late). Odds are you use a build similar to mine as most rooks follow the same basic pattern.
Good reg's typically buy the vast majority of the citadel upgrades and isn't always in the think of battle as the front line guy, so he's a good candidate for mcp. If I play as reg, I know I'm on the hook for fs1/cur1 at the very least, and then creeps. But with the cost savings from mcp, the reg can purchase more and more.
Cool. I may have tried something similar against the AI because I remember being at the 1900. I think thats why I got scared and went early Struc transfer at lvl 2 or 3. That pushed back the usual first slam from lvl 6 to lvl 9 at that point I think I just took another Struc Trans for fun and waited on the slam till after 10. I think this is the first build ill try.
1-Tower I
2-ST or arrows
3-ST or arrows
4-Tower II
5-Boulder
6-Light
7-Tower III
8-Treb
9-IDK?? Slam(just seems like a weak slam at this level), ST or Save
10-Tower IV, If saved point- Boudler-2( that also seems weak w/o the slam so IDK i guess its good for stunning in towers)
Then slams and whatever else.
This is my normal. Or mix it up sometimes with early slam at 1 just for fun.
1- Tower
2 arrows
3 save
4 tower II
5 light/roll
6- slam
7-tower III
8 Treb
9 slam II
10- Tower IV
after 10 it usually varies
But anyways I will be trying stuff out.
Side note: In a normal build what importance would you put on the last level slam(dizzying force??) and poison arrows? I don't even remember if the last slam adds damage or it just does the slow. Are these must haves? At that point I think I just get them just because but never really saw a vast improvement with them.
Must haves. The slow is HUGE.. it doesn't provide any extra damage.. but you can bring someone to almost a complete stop
I'll have to look at the slam more closely. And the poison arrows I feel like I can count on one hand the times that I have been hit by them playing against a rook that's why I never thought they were any good. Or maybe because eveyone else on the team usually has so many slows at this point I never really noticed the difference.
That's because Dizzying Force is a -50% slow, where the arrows are only -10%.
OH NOES demigoddb.com is down wtf. PACOV WHAT IS THIS?! (I don't remember the guy who hosts it..)
I used that site fairly often
that has been down for months?
well, rather, it's been broke for awhile. Not 404'ing
pfft no, that guy fixed it back in July or w/e. It was working fine within the past couple weeks.
UhelligGudn was the guys name. Bah.. wonder what happened.
I've seen it working as recently as 4-5 days ago when I looked something up on the fly.
So I tried it out again last night. A little hard getting a game together.
2v2 again. Same UB that I lost to the previous night and a little better TB(but he went fire idk if that’s the best choice against rook) vs MCP rook and weird item build blood UB(start speed boot->saved for narmoth-> saved for slayer wrap and some other item used only 4 slots and carried 10k to end game) but he seemed to do ok with all 5 deaths coming later game when it was almost over(got a little scary.)
I actually played mana xp runner against the TB. Heh. I got to experiment with tower placement to avoid circle of fire. So that was fun. I finally got it down where he could only circle 1 tower and all 3 towers that I set at mid still fired at him if he tried to take flag. I did the Struct Trans (ST) build w/ ST at 2 and 9. It seemed to do well. I didn’t really plan to engage these 2 early game so didn’t miss the slam at all. I started with banded and scaled (and tp I think.) Bought early cit upgrades again so that slowed me. I think he bought curr2 and I easily got in cur 3(game lasted 60 minutes so it was worth it) right when it came up.
I bought unbreakable-> nimoth-> hauberk-> sold scaled for vlemish and carried banded thru whole game….pffff. Item set up usually: tp, sigil and carried a large mana pot and really didn’t run into any mana problems(I think I only used 2-3 entire game.) I played 1 helm(vlemish) through whole game after level 10 mana was cake. We got rid of mana tower early so holding HP was easy. I was usually 1-2k hp above everyone till late game. At one point early I had full kit and the others still only had 3 items. I never really upgraded kit past that because I was never really in trouble and I bought a lot of cit upgrades but would have liked to see narmoth, orb and ling helm. My partner started buying creeps early so that ruined my plans and had to continue with creeps. I couldn’t just leave priest and angel sitting there they seemed so lonely. Opponents leveled like crazy.
Key points: I was left alone for like 20-30 seconds at mana tower and easily took it to ¼ health and UB finished it off a little while later. This was high towers too. Cool thing about ST on cata is you can run up to tower place your first tower then AA a couple of times while it’s firing at you not your towers. Then ST which stops the tower from firing then place another tower once ST is over. If you have to walk away at that point you still have 2 full towers banging away at it. After that I cleared out all 3 HP lane towers and any time they tried to 2v1 me to clear my towers UB capped mine flag.
I can’t say they were the greatest players in the world but they did ok. I may have died if UB knew how to stun so I need to watch that. I ended up with lowest favor points but we still won the game.
The other game I am ashamed of even being in so I won’t say anything about it. Haha.
Hopefully I can get at least 1 decent game in tonight. Still seems like an interesting favor. If nothing else I like the shopping sprees.
I was also thinking about your 20 second start delay. Idk how long it takes to lumber your big ass out to mid but it seems like you could get that head start with no shopping and while the camera is rotating in to at least attempt to capture mid while waiting on helm money. If nothing else plop a tower out there and walk back if anyone is there. Or.……or a better possibility get a quick TP out to HP and get that solo lane capture, place tower walk over to mid hopefully teammate is on the way and place another tower fight a sec for mid then walk back. So best case scenario you spend 212 gold to get a solo lane capture and an easy assist lane capture holding HP flag. It will probably take a bit longer than 20 seconds but you need the extra few seconds to make up the 212 gold spent on TP and you’re walking back at level 2.5. Get your plenor then walk back recapture mid because its probably changed hands then head to HP maybe close to level 3. Worst case: blow 212 on a solo lane capture, get denied at mid then the long walk back but still get your 2 towers out. Again Idk how long it takes to walk around and I don’t even know if it’s feasible but 20 seconds seems like a long time to be sitting at crystal. It’s worth a shot. I’m sure you can at least make it to mid then back. Like you said it’s a race to level 4 it seems like a solo lane capture would help maximize your extra mana more quickly.
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