You are a channeler. You are the lord and master of the pure magical elements. Fire to melt a man's flesh off his bones. Water to call tsunamis and level cities. Earth to crack the land and send armies tumbling into great crevasses. Air to summon tornadoes to tear apart cities and show your domination over the skies. You are near godhood. You can take on entire armies by yourself, smash titans back into the ground, slaughter the Fallen like lambs...
Or you know, walk around casting +1 Production per Turn on all your cities. Because that's the vastly superior position for your magical character to be in because Elemental's magic sucks. It really does.
This is a problem that has been mentioned since mid-beta. Elemental's magic system is vastly inferior to a game that doesn't even have a third axis! (And to what Elemental is supposedly a spiritual successor of.)
Master of Magic had (and still has) people enthralled. Do you know why? It's primary feature (which is in the title like Elemental's is) was amazing. It was awe inspiring. It made you feel like a Master of Magic. A wizard playing at the top of your game, taking on your foes with hordes of minions and magical spells cast from across the world.
I have to say, some of the stuff I did in Master of Magic gave me a bit of a nerd boner. In Elemental War of Magic, we instead get the stuff that only gives severe lovers of mechanics boners. My god! Look at that, I can fill up all my enchantment slots (another poor idea, really sorry to the guy who thought this up, but it was a step in the wrong direction) with +1 Production per Turn! It's like a girl having a really sexy name like Cassandra or something and then her turning up at your house and being a bloke. It might be nice for someone, but it's not what I'm looking for.
Let's take another game as an example: Dominions 3. This isn't particularly my type of game. I'll be perfectly honest, it's not the right sort of turn-based strategy game for me (I prefer 4X, where it's more of a wargame), but I was willing to buy it for one single reason.
The magic system was fucking awesome. Armies of the dead raising from your land every turn. Using magic to turn every certain kind of magic spell into an EXCESSIVELY deadly game of chance. Single, otherwise pathetic, units standing against armies simply because they're buffed with enough magic to smash the world.
It's beautiful. It's a wonderful experience. It's like autocratic crack. It makes you feel so powerful (imagine Black&White, only more awesome) that it's sad that it's on such a poor graphical level. I heartily suggest you all try the demo (especially the magic!) and see what you think of it.
Elemental simply doesn't hold up to that. People are willing to forgive a lot if you engage their fantasies of being powerful, and Elemental simply doesn't do that. Elemental simply doesn't do a lot of things.
Make magic feel like magic, instead of feeling like we're playing with the numbers on a spreadsheet, for god's sake!
Make the War of Magic be the WAR of MAGIC.
God damn it, guys, I suck at game design and I know this much.
Games are for fun. They're meant to engage people and make them enjoy themselves (usually through delusions of grandeur and powerplay, but screw it). If you're not doing that, they're going to call your game a piece of crap and they would be right to do so.
P.S. I know I'm going to be said to be being stupid and not being constructive or some crap like that so I'm going to post some things that could be changed, too!
Namely, shards. Shards, as they are in Elemental now, are the dullest pieces of shit in the world. They're supposedly raw conduits of elemental power and they just sit there looking stupid? No way. Do something with them. Don't just make them resources to hold from other players. They're dangerous, they're deadly and they should be acknowledged as such. Make them explode, giving everyone in the world one (or two!) more shard-power. Shards were just the beginning of the troubles, however. Just read this.
Spells are buggered up. Volcanoes should be THE VERY LEAST of our abilities. They should be the base from which everything else comes. Make us capable of casting a spell that starts blowing up all terrain outside people's borders. It changes the gameplay completely (no ability to expand due to GOD DAMN VOLCANOES) so players feel powerful and gameplay changes as the game carries on.
What I'm saying is that ALL SPELLS SHOULD BE OVERPOWERED. They should be dangerous. They should regularly bite the hand that feeds them. They should destroy vast swaths of terrain. Spell casters should be deadly and not pussies stuck at home filing away bonuses.
YES I KNOW THIS IS BARELY COHERENT BUT I'M SICK AND TIRED OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SUPPOSEDLY EXPERTS AT GAME DESIGN NOT REALISING WHAT IS WRONG WITH ELEMENTAL'S GOD DAMN MAGIC SYSTEM FOR GOD'S SAKE GUYS JUST LOOK AT IT IT'S FUCKING DULL
I generally agree with this sentiment. In fact, I've agreed with it since before the first public betas. So far, the design has treated magic as a sort of secondary technology. What I'd hoped for was to see a game where mundane technology played a background role to magic, but what we have is a game where magic is a struggling stepchild to the rest of the 'tech trees.'
The main culprit I'd blame for my frustration is the power that jargon has over folks involved in very complex work. Just try to imagine how you'd think about this game if you had never heard or invented the phrase "tech tree."
p.s. All spells should most definitely not be 'overpowered.' That way you can have fun with regular spells and extra fun with 'overpowered' spells.
I'm holding my breath for the explosion of new spells I expect to see in Dec. at some point (since the 'design your spell' contest ends around then somewhere)
I'm not sure if I'd blame 'tech trees' for the fault with the current magic system, just lack of spells. Honestly in the beta an abundance of spells should have been created with little to no animations or art assets, then the ones that were mechanically boring should have been weeded out and the rest should have been given exciting animations. Because right now there are what feels like very few spells, no repeat spells it feels too simple and if you want to have a variety of things you can do you NEED all the spell books. (i.e. if you want to cast spells in combat, you need combat spells. If you want to enchant your dudes you need enchantment... you can't get the basic combat spell without focusing on combat spells, you can't get the little vigilant dude summon without unlocking all summon magic)
in MoM, HoMM, or AoW there were spells that overlapped, particularly in low level so that you did not need to be a magic jack-o-all-trades to be able to cover your basses in terms of spell use. So you did not need all the elements (mom/aow) or city types (homm) to cover your bases in terms of combat enchantment, combat damage, etc. Only if you wanted a variety of really powerful spells (powerful summon monsters, crazy mass unit spells) did you need to branch out. Each game handles it differently, but I don't really feel like this game does it at all. Its you have the spell book or you don't, and if you have it you have pretty much all of it... no half points, specialization, or advanced sets.
Including the book research in the tech tree I think works just fine. I think it should just be broken up a little more and have a more complex requirement system with exclusive leveling systems for different areas or 'basic' spells that still meet requirements for higher level spell research. (actually I might be on to something... maybe I should put my thinking cap on and write up a pitch for the devs)
I feel like to prevent work from being done twice spells have only been added very cautiously to prevent dev time being spent on making spells that may not fit into the target number of spells to be in the game. (then we should be given anything that was created for unused spells for use in helping boost the mod community)
*Sigh*
While I can't say I agree with the tone of the OP, I do, sadly, agree with substance. My impression of the revision process is that they're starting with a solid base to expand upon. So, I have hope that this is the eventual goal. Baseless optimism... maybe. Either way, I hope that the devs at least read over this post.
Agreed. I don't even bother with magic anymore as it's easier to spam units and economy than it is magical spells.
We have to remember who designed Elemental. The same guys who brought us Galactic Civilizations and the Political Machine. Both of these games are by nature number crunching games.
And there are (I'm sure) a good number of people here that bought this game because it would be kind of a 'Galactic Civilizations meets Lord Of the Rings' kind of game, complete with all sorts of min-maxing techs that you can use to get more production, more attack, more everything.
I, on the other hand, am looking for a worthy successor to past games, like the Warlords series. With new and refreshing magical concepts that make the game cool.
I haven't played Master Of Magic (perhaps I should). I haven't played Master Of Orion either for that matter. What convinced me to buy this game was the cool graphics on the box, which indicated I'd be blasting enemies with powerful spells, fighting (or fighting alongside) Dragons and other powerful creatures, and, oh by the way, I have this Kingdom or Empire I'm trying to establish in the meantime. The fact that Stardock made this game made it a no brainer. I won't spend $50 for just any game, you know...
I want to have truly powerful Heroes that aren't stamped out by cookie cutters, each with their unique own style and skillset. And I want to be able to customize those heroes to my style of play as they advance in levels. Elemental lets me do this in a General sense, but not in a specific sense.
I want to know that the hero who's got my Sovereign's back is the guy that is the baddest Archer in the land, not just another pretty face. And the Knight Lord I sent out in front of me was CHOSEN by me to take the fight to the enemy BECAUSE he's a Master Swordsman, not just some random dude I hired out in the wastes and bought a sword for.
And I want the game mechanics to reflect that having BOTH of them in my party is necessary and generally a very good idea - i.e. too many archers and I get overrrun. Too many swordsman and they get savaged by spells and bowmen before they can do their work.
Oh, and a Cavalry dynamic would be nice too, especially if cool mounts like Bears and Slags enter the picture.
AND, I want my Wizards summoning Powerful Elementals that do lots of cool things (not just a token Attack spell), plus they have other, devastating spells at their disposal. Mind you, I expect, for game balance purposes, that there should be a game mechanic in place to keep them from doing this without limit - otherwise that Fiery Nuke spell they might have will get boring.
Not everyone wants this same Experience from Elemental, I accept that. But I'd rather have the min-maxers have more stuff to min-max, such as a huge library of spells, different skills as well as different stats and items, and other options for them to get completly lost in, while I'm just having fun exploring the land with that Fire Giant, Fire Elemental, a couple of badass heroes and such looking for adventure. Oh, and conquering the occasional city when the opportunity arises...
Plus, I want to see those Epic confrontations that have me biting my nails the entire combat. I had a few of these back in the earlier patch days (pre 1.09). I specifically remember one fight that had me truly outnumbered, despite my stack of 12, and I REALLY had to use my archers and spells wisely to get through that one. This was back when longbows only did a few points of damage every 2nd or 3rd hit, not like they work currently, and spells were tougher but Mana wasn't as plentiful as it seems to be now. I ACTUALLY HAD to used my summoned creatures as blockers, to protect my Sovereign and bowmen from being overrun. In fact, I ended up reloading the game a few times, just so I COULD figure out how to win that specific fight. It took about four tries before I actually won...
Somewhere along the way, lately, the game seems to have lost that appeal. I miss the wandering hordes of monsters. I'm seeing a few in 1.09n, but nothing like the first game I played. I've asked for a check box option to bring those back, which it seems has fallen on deaf ears. Conquering empires is fine, but having to keep the monsters out of my cities truly kept me on my toes. Having those hordes made City Spam a dicey proposition (and just how do you plan to defend ALL those cities?) Brad's work on the AI is making enemy kingdoms more scary now, and I applaud that. But slaying rampaging Fire Drakes just sounds cooler!
Global Mana is great from a wargaming standpoint. But from a Role Playing standpoint, not so much...
I've discussed various aspects of this in other threads, so I won't belabor them much more here. All I can do is let the developers know that:
I want Epic Heroes doing Epic Battle against Epic Monsters using Epic Magic and Epic Armies,while building my kingdom to Epic Proportions
Keep working towards that goal, guys. We may get there eventually...
Also, you must have decided to ignore on purpose the fact that they are working on the magic system right now but that it cannot be fixed in 3.8 nanoseconds. But as you seem to know so much, why don't you do it yourself? I want you to post a whole magic system and all the possible spells, their balance, the... Well, just redo the game (not just theory, I want a playable thing) and share it. And I want it for the past month. No excuses.
Wow, Wintersong, I never expected you to fanboy in such a pathetic way. I'm a bit disappointed in you. Seriously, "You haven't done X, so you can't criticise them for it!" lost all meaning after the Twilight fangirls started doing it.
And you don't seem to understand the meaning of "powerful spells". Powerful spells are ones that affect the world. Like any of the global enchantments in Master of Magic, any of the global spells in Dominions 3 (which are seriously epic and game changing) etc etc. A single volcano is no big thing. Ten of them springing up every turn is.
From looking at the 1.1 patch notes, the changes to magic seem, if not in the wrong direction, to be going nowhere. I'm not sure if Kael is the man for the job for Elemental. He was good on Fall from Heaven, but that was more for the world building / general polish of the mod instead of the magic system. The magic system in FfH was pretty dull, as it stood.
I'm no game developer. I'm no designer. I haven't had about two years of in-production game development to build the game in. I didn't have a bunch of beta testers telling me exactly was wrong with the magic system. I wasn't one of the people who ignored all those beta testers and went straight ahead with the magic system as is.
And, personally, I think that all those things make it more profound that I can tell what the hell is wrong with the system where others fail.
( Oh, and balance should be the last thing on their minds when they're doing something like this. Rule of cool first, balance testing later. Balance is extremely poor at the moment, so that doesn't really matter. )
Seeing as one 1.1 is still very much about bedding in the core mechanics and creating a stable platform from which to build I don't understand why you would look to those patch notes for evidence of future spell content. The best indicator we have is the fact they are currently running a design a spell contest. I share your frustration that this games needs alot more content, but I also understand that atm the core foundation of the game needs to be finalised over the coming patches before that content will get the attention it needs.
Also I get the impression Kael's job really gets started after the 1.1 patch so give him a break. He seems switched on and more than up to the task in my opinion.
Get a bar of soap and wash out Autarkhos mouth and I agree pretty much with his post.
Here's my take on the situation. Previously before 1.09n magics strong points were:-
1. missile spells. Lets face it they killed enemy sov's out right and wrecked armies quite a bit
2. Summons. Create massive summoned armies by imbuing multiple heroes. This was magics most powerful aspect and was easy to win games with.
Magic in all other departments was weak however. Assist spells, buffs, enchantments, and the really big one world enchantments. Now after playing 1.09n beta for a while I actually feel like this is a step in the right direction. There are some very good spells in the list now; Death Ward and Call to Arms for example. There are still a number of problems I can see...
1. Seems to me that we've taken a step backwards with the usual missile spells. There pretty weak now. When I've researched into the fire spell tree I'd expect to gain access to some serious firepower. Not sure if half the problem atm is magic resistence.
2. Summon spells. They seem to me to have also taken a step backwards, many of the top ones such as Fire Giants and Lord's of Ice seem to be missing. That Guardian Ward spell on the other hand could be a very good spell, but Im not sure yet.
3. Spell Level 7-10. They seem to be kind of vacant to me atm...? I'm not actually sure I saw any new spells after gaining level 9 access, lol.
4. SD has not been able to do any big bad global enchantment type spells. This is what MOM had that EWOM doesn't. No time stop, stealing enemy enchantments, enchanting magical roads, banishing all summoned monsters, filling the world with volcanoes, blocking all attempts of an enemies to caste spells, blocking teleporting spells, and a lot of others. Until SD are able or willing to fill this gap magic will not be as epic as it was in EWOM.
There does seem to be many plans still for magic and I really hope it will bring the system to it's fullist potential. Spell casting time is set to be implemented in the future so I will look forward to that. There are 2 areas I thought could really use some work though...
1. Too many starting perks are pathetic. The +2 food, +1 tech, Arcane are the major worst offenders. For the sake of the magic system I want to see custom magic perks that can boost any perticular area of magic a player wishes to be strong in. Far more valuable then a silly perk that has no value after the first early turns.
2. MOM had a very good Magic Power and Dispel Power system. Magic power determined how strong the dispel power had to be to cancel a spell. There were a number of dispel spells with varying levels of power. There were also perks that increased magic power and dispel power, Also sorcery spell school was the king of dispeling and magical protection. EWOM has 1 spell that I noticed in the beta; Spell immunity. What? Total protection with no chance of cracking it on a single unit? Also I don't recall seeing any form of dispel magic. EWOM is gonna have to do alot of work in this area imo.
Totally agree with point 1, although part of that was due to the 'glass' heroes we had before. Now that they have more HP, I think those spells would be more balanced, if they were re-implemented the way they were before. As it stands now, I only use the missile spells in 1.09n until I scrape together 250 GP for a longbow - then I stop using them.
Also totally agree with point 2. The magic trees were changed around, but I've been looking for Mr Elemental and Mr Giant. I miss having those guys running interference for my Sovereign, and expected to face the same with enemy sovereigns. I wasn't aware that having 3-5 different summoned creatures in your stack had become an issue, but apparently it is...
That being said, I do understand the word BETA, so maybe these are being reworked at the moment. I still want the flavor/unit mix of summoned creatures to be retained as it was before, though. This is WAR OF MAGIC, after all!
I thought they reduced the levels from 10 to 5
Imagine a battle between a Sovereign with a bunch of armies against another Sovereign with a bunch of armies... within a few turns the only thing left is the two enemy sovereigns... that would be cool! These sovereigns casting all kinds of crazy magic at each other ala the Gray Wizard vs. the White Wizard.
Hey, I didn't swear that much!
Also, they need to make gaining magic be about using magic. How do you gain magic currently? You research it with the tech tree to make it available to research again.But once you have a spell, as long there is mana available, any channeler or imbued champion can cast it. Oh look, its late game and I just managed to recruit a new champion, the next turn I imbue him and pow, he can cast any spell available to me, level 10 on down.You want to give us a sense of accomplishment on being able to use magic? Make it so we have to 'practice' casting spells to gain the more powerful ones. Let us go ahead and research the spells, but before we can use them we need to practice. Cast level 1 spells 15 times before you gain the ability to cast level 2 spells, or something like that.
Good ideas here. Or perhaps Channelers/Heroes have to learn spells (i.e. individual spell books), either thru the leveling process or having to do some training to use said spell.
In the meantime, if you could limit the level of spells you can cast, based on your Sovereign/Hero level (example, you have to be at least 5th level to cast 3rd level spells), this'd make your more experienced Channelers more useful/important in combat, and the risk of losing them in combat would be something you'd have to consider.
I actually disagree. Magic should be an edge, not the be all and end all of the game. If I can't take out a sovereign with mundane troops then something has went wrong in the balancing somewhere. MoM and Dominions did have good magic systems, but that's all they had. Dominions is seriously sub-par in the economic and general empire building stakes, and while MoM managed to retain useful mundane units this was largely down to the shortcomings in the AI than anything else.
I think magic can be both balanced and fun, but you are right currently Elemental feels not very magical.
An example can be found here: https://forums.elementalgame.com/400657/page/1/#2830349
My disagreement is based on
1. You behaving bad and making group attacks to all who simply disagree with you.
2. You basing your opinion on MoM and Dominion 3, who despite being good games, had so many flaws i dont know why they are so hyped.
3. You bashing a beta release where the devs clearly stated magic is still in the works.
And as little special for you, just because i can use capslock, too:
IF YOU WANT TO PLAY F***ING MoM; GO AND PLAY F***CKING MoM. I DID NOT PAY FOR THE SAME OLD SH*T I ALREADY PAYED FOR 15 YEARS AGO. I WANT A NEW GAME.
Have a nice day.
@Stardock: Despite the OP behaving like a 13 year old wiseass, there is some truth to the lack of undead armies. Long life the undead ... hum.
I think most if not all +X to Y city enchancement spells should be mercilessly axed.
If I enchant my city, I want it to be surrounded by a circle of fire, bask in holy radiance or eternal darkness, be hidden inside a persistent illusion, rise up in the air or sink underground. Some spell ideas there for the devs.
+X to whatever production is the most boring use for magic imaginable and something that should be accomplished by mundane means instead.
"Elemental - War of Magic". It's called that for a reason, man.
I'm not saying that sovereigns shouldn't be able to be taken down by mundane troops, but the game is - undeniably - about powerful magic users. No matter how you start the game, how your character is designed etc etc, he is still an immortal magical ruler. The fact that magic is relegated to such a pathetic position at the moment is absolutely hilarious.
Also, I'm personally of the opinion that a sovereign should not be able (except under exceptional circumstances) to be taken down by some two-bit knight or peasant. At the very least, have it be a hero who does the killing blow.
1. Such as? I call out bullshit when I see it. Like most of your post, really.
2. Because they are fun. Because they make players feel like the characters they're supposed to be (powerful wizards and gods warring over the world respectively). Because they have ridiculously high replay value despite their "many flaws".
3. lol. "IT'S A BETA HONEST THAT'S WHY IT'S BEEN RELEASED AND IS GOLD ETC ETC". Read this and then this. "YEAH BUT..." Yes but nothing. This company does not need sycophants, it needs people telling the truth. GTFO. No, it is not a beta. It may be in a state expected of an early beta, but that does not make it a beta.
Elemental was regularly advertised as the "spiritual successor" to Master of Magic. That means it's designed to incorporate elements of Master of Magic into it's design and tries to improve on them or other ailing troubles. The fact you don't seem to understand the difference really highlights how little you have to give to this conversation.
It is a beta patch...I'm not sure how that confuses you.
I just want to give the developers the opposite end of the spectrum:
I played a game as a Fallen race with a cool Sovereign. I studied the crap out of Combat spells and Fire spells (I managed to grab THREE fire shards, by tactically placing some cities). I gave my Sovereign full armor, a giant axe, and buffed him with combat spells. I hunted down quests and beat the crap out of monsters.
I marched on Altar's capital city. They had an army with a combat rating of 240 defending it, including their sovereign. My Sovereign was alone. I sent no troops with him. He had a combat rating of 300. He solo'd the entire defense and in the following turn summoned a volcano on the city. When I did this, I felt really cool and I was reminded of Master of Magic. I felt like the bad ass magic user of the century.
Play the new beta patch. Aside from some really weird resistance issues (Resisting arrows? What?), crash bugs, and the need for damage types on weapons and abilities for customized units... well... the Magic system and the pacing on city building? MUCH BETTER.
This.
1. The part in bold, big letters. How can you miss that? Didnt you wrote that? You are saying, that all who think the game concept as is, is good, are wrong. You are saying your opinion is worth more then mine. If it werent for this last paragraph i would have read, shrugged and thougth 'let him have his opinion'. But you decided to feel all superior and that makes me pissed of. Because you are as worthless as me. We are equal.
2. This is a very opinion based argument. MoM was great, but at start of the game you honestly did not feel like some god. You had to work for that. In E:WoM it is the same. Start weak and grow. And Dom 3 had no replay value whatsoever for me. It is all opinion, you see.
3. You are arguing the BETA patch here. Or are you saying you havent installed it yet and playing v1.08? If thats so, i apologize and back out. If not, you are stating the obvious, with the devs already aknowleding you and what a thousand others already said. Also they stated, they are working on it. What more do you want? A personal apologie and handshake from them for crushing your dreams?
I understand the difference, but i am not of your opinion that they missed the mark yet.
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